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Please advise on this Montana sapphire - window?

the_mother_thing

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Mar 2, 2013
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I contacted the seller of this sapphire last night. Her listing has one picture for the stone, so I needed to see/know more to decide if it might work for my project and sent her a message requesting any pictures and/or video she might have.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/193991154/hand-cut-montana-sapphire-corundum-7mm?ref=shop_home_active_17

She responded with this video:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0hKGWh2yaP6UTZPdUNEVWlGNUk/preview

What are your observations (specific to windowing) of this sapphire?

I am most definitely NOT buying this stone, regardless of answers, and will explain why once a few of the experts weigh in on this but I don't want to sway any responses. My point is, I am not worried about someone snagging it if they want it.

Thanks so much!
 
yes, I can read the text behind it.
the pattern on the pavilion makes it more noticeable.
the big flat table top [almost literally and figuratively] makes it hard to ignore the windowing.
 
You can see the paper behind it through the culet too. It looks like it has a shallow crown, which often accompanies a large table. I didn't see any mention of dimensions on the listing at all -- did I miss it? Kind of basic info a buyer would want to know. Glad you're not buying it; I don't think it's a very great example.

--- Laurie
 
I think that would be a very annoying window.

Have you seen the new montana sapphires at gemfix? some real nice ones!
 
Thank you. This mirrors essentially my thoughts & observations as well.

JF - the ct & mm measurements were in the title of the listing, but that is easily missed there. I had to go back to look as well.

So here is the deal and why I will never buy from this seller. After watching that video a couple times, I realized it wouldn't work for me (because if the window), and sent her an email back, thanking her very much for the video, and her time, effort and observations of the stone, but that I would need to pass on it, as the window was a little too much to allow me to really love it. I also mentioned that while she observed the stone (in her video commentary) to be denim blue, it looked more dark green in the video, but that it was probably just a difference in monitors.

I then got a very short response back, stating there is no window and that the stone was not green in the least. Fearing I may have offended her, I responded apologizing if I offended her with my comments, but that was not my intention. I then got another email explaining tilt windows to me (even though I am probably familiar with them if I am commenting ABOUT a window to begin with), and the following:
"Telling a cutter that they intentionally ruined a good piece of material IS the holy grail of insults. I rank 4th in the country for cutting precision, and my work is better than you will find for a long, long, long time, if ever. I tried to show in the video that the stone isn't windowed, but you saw what you wanted to see. I'd rather not sell a stone to someone who doesn't love it."
Click to expand...

:shock:

I never said any such thing, just that the presence of the window was why I wouldn't be buying it. My eyes saw exactly what her video showed - a garage door! (I didn't include THAT in my email mind you).

I know sometimes, windows can't be helped if - as her own video commentary states - "she was cutting to preserve carat weight". But did it warrant that kind of response to a potential (now lost) customer? I haven't bothered to respond to it. Some people just have to be right/righteous, no matter the cost.

And I really didn't want to bash the seller, but posted this primarily to confirm my observations of the window (so if I was wrong, I could rightfully apologize ... again). But this particular experience also REALLY makes me grateful for the kind, caring gem dealers on the trusted vendor list! And that IS worth sharing & starting this thread.
 
VapidLapid|1407020105|3725104 said:
I think that would be a very annoying window.

Have you seen the new montana sapphires at gemfix? some real nice ones!
Click to expand...

I did look at gemfix, and while they are GORGEOUS stones, they are out of my range unfortunately. I am looking at options for a blue 7-7.5 mm stone at/under $500. It will be a challenge, I know, but I don't expect perfection either. But that's how this stone came up.

And I forgot to mention in my last post just now, the price last night was somewhere around $250-300. It is now $750+!!! :shock:

She mentioned in her first email that if I wanted it at the listed lower price, she would sell it to me at that price, but that she was raising the price immediately otherwise to be in line with some gem guide ... So, a stone with a garage door went up $500 overnight!
 
Well I just don't know about her ranking, I've never heard of her til now.
I, myself, wouldn't be boasting of being a fourth ranked moyl.
 
I just got another response from this person. She is "extremely pissed that I have wasted her time" by contacting her about her product (because it had only ONE picture that didn't quite align with the description in color); asked her basic, typical trade questions about her product (additional pictures, can you confirm it does not have a window); that she provided a video showing the stone WITH a window in a color that still doesn't match what she stated, but after all that, I still didn't buy it. :confused:

Mmmkay ... So, shop at your own risk on her etsy page or her website, but for the love of ALL that is sparkling, do NOT even think about asking this person questions about her product and not buying, even if it's not what you want. :errrr:

Seriously, where is the candid camera crew?
 
 
Agreed. I mean, I wasn't looking for super high dollar stones, but then again, I wasn't expecting super high quality stones either, given my budget for this. And honestly I could overlook the quality to some degree if the price was good, depending on what I was doing with it. She has a couple items I thought might make fun pendants as gifts. But heck, after seeing how unprofessional she was when I didn't buy one item, I'll be darned if I give her my money. :nono:
 
That etsy seller is new. Looks like she opened her store in June, 2014.

I'd ask her to stop emailing you. If she continues, report her emails to etsy as unwanted. Not sure how you can do that, but I'm sure there's a way.

Then, do not engage her anymore.

I wouldn't have bought the stone either. You asked reasonable questions. It wasn't a $25 stone. It was on sale for a lot more.
 
One or two pictures - no informations!!! Very unprofessional - don't like this sapphire.
 
Actually that's a poorly cut stone because the very large flat table mirrors the huge tilt window issues - oh and she's right, this stone doesn't have a window when you look directly at it but her cutting has accentuated enormous tilt windows on all sides. Perhaps you should point her to this forum so she can learn that she needs to treat customers respectfully. :angryfire:

Ranked 4th and nobody here has heard of her? A legend in her own lunchtime I think! :eek:
 
Thanks everyone for your input. My last email to her concluded with the warning that any more unprofessional emails from her would get forwarded to appropriate parties. I also told her that when she opens up shop on the internet, and posts just one picture and limited info of her product, with no customer reviews of her work, she was bound to get questions from people who may or may not decide to buy based on her answers, and that if she was going to get "seriously pissed" every time that happens, she was in for some "serious disappointment".

Personally, for every one gemstone or diamond I have bought, I have probably (and quite literally) looked at a thousand others to arrive at that one stone and purchase, and find the right item for my needs.

I say it again, this situation just reiterates the value in PS recommended vendors. The couple that I have had the pleasure of buying from (Jeff D, Dan S., and Dana R.) and those of whom I have made inquiries have been nothing short of professional, polite, and helpful in answering my questions. :appl:
 
Very interesting thread. I can't comment on the cutter nor the stone.

But it brings up the question where is this list? I have never heard of this list or rankings.

The second topic is one that I brought up a few months back, and that is are you willing to pay for extra weight, at the sacrifice of the stone? She mentions leaving the girdle thick, to try to hit 2 cts. Do you want to pay for 2 cts and have a thick girdle? Every stone you cut, you are faced with these types of questions.
 
PrecisionGem|1407075255|3725338 said:
Very interesting thread. I can't comment on the cutter nor the stone.

But it brings up the question where is this list? I have never heard of this list or rankings.

The second topic is one that I brought up a few months back, and that is are you willing to pay for extra weight, at the sacrifice of the stone? She mentions leaving the girdle thick, to try to hit 2 cts. Do you want to pay for 2 cts and have a thick girdle? Every stone you cut, you are faced with these types of questions.
Click to expand...

At the top of the CS forum is a thread of respected colored stone vendors, which is updated by PS members who have dealt with various vendors. It is not a "PS endorsed" list, and they are not ranked. It's just a list of vendors with whom members have had positive dealings with, and is a great reference for buyers, not to mention handy having it all in one place.

Personally, unless it's a rare stone type to warrant preserving the carat weight, I would rather just have a pretty stone that is reasonably well cut. But I realize there are stones in all budgets, and we all have to make choices about our criteria priorities. If I had known how "bad" the windowing was to begin with, I would not have contacted her because I know there are (for me) better options in my budget or I would expand my budget to get a better stone. But I had no way of knowing without contacting her and "wasting her time" apparently.
 
JoCoJenn|1407071253|3725317 said:
Thanks everyone for your input. My last email to her concluded with the warning that any more unprofessional emails from her would get forwarded to appropriate parties. I also told her that when she opens up shop on the internet, and posts just one picture and limited info of her product, with no customer reviews of her work, she was bound to get questions from people who may or may not decide to buy based on her answers, and that if she was going to get "seriously pissed" every time that happens, she was in for some "serious disappointment".

Personally, for every one gemstone or diamond I have bought, I have probably (and quite literally) looked at a thousand others to arrive at that one stone and purchase, and find the right item for my needs.

I say it again, this situation just reiterates the value in PS recommended vendors. The couple that I have had the pleasure of buying from (Jeff D, Dan S., and Dana R.) and those of whom I have made inquiries have been nothing short of professional, polite, and helpful in answering my questions. :appl:
Click to expand...

Our recommended list is about people who have had good experiences with a particular vendor, enough to recommend him/her. However, not all people may have had a good experience with that vendor. If there are enough negative experiences, they will be removed from the list. One cannot guarantee that the vendors on that list will be professional with everyone. I don't want people to think that the recommended list is perfect, because it isn't, but it's just some place to start that is a bit safer than just finding vendors on your own. For the most part, the vendors on the list have been professional when it comes to returns, and to me that is extremely important.

Lapidaries can become very irate about negative comments on their cutting. Even one of the lapidaries you mentioned with high esteem, became extremely insulted when someone here made a negative comment on his cutting. I wont' say who, but he's very kind and professional otherwise, which is why he's on our recommended list.

Not all lapidaries are like this, and can handle constructive criticism, but just note that many take a lot of pride in what they do, and cannot tolerate any criticism on cutting whatsoever. They rather hear things like "the color didn't meet my expectations." That's not an excuse for how you were treated, but just some FYI. Lapidaries are artists, and when someone criticizes their "art," it can cut a deep wound. At least that's been my experience and some of what I've seen on Pricescope with other people's experiences.

ETA: The stone has a very obvious window, and you can see the text through it with the table almost perpendicular to the line of sight in the video. This is not just a tilt window issue. She either doesn't understand windows, or she's in denial about it. Here's what I'm talking about from her video.

_20994.jpg
 
I wasn't asking about the Pricescope list, I'm well aware of that, and thanks for adding me to it, but the comment "I rank 4th in the country..." Where is this ranking? Has anyone ever heard or seen this?
 
TL - thanks much. And sorry if I miscommunication anything about the list. I perceive it exactly as you noted. As for the cutter, when I first decided to pass on the stone, I actually was very "careful" in my choice of words for that very reason - so as not to offend or insult. That's what caught me so off guard in her response. I am generally pretty sensitive to that sort of thing and take extra effort intentionally not to insult.

Gene - sorry about the confusion over lists. I really have no idea what list she was referencing, and I didn't ask because by then, I knew it wouldn't matter. Her demeanor turned me off from worrying about it to the point that - if it were true - I would never buy from her anyway.
 
TL - do you think that's a window? I'm positive it's a huge tilt window because (a) it's not seen head on. When I looked at the video there's a point where you can't see through it at all and it appeared to be head on and (b) only one side of the stone appears windowed in your still from the video (which again makes me think it's a huge tilt). I think we both agree though that it's not good lol
 
LD|1407080246|3725382 said:
TL - do you think that's a window? I'm positive it's a huge tilt window because (a) it's not seen head on. When I looked at the video there's a point where you can't see through it at all and it appeared to be head on and (b) only one side of the stone appears windowed in your still from the video (which again makes me think it's a huge tilt). I think we both agree though that it's not good lol
Click to expand...

Well, when she held it very close to the paper, it was shading the paper, and hence you couldn't see anything through it except shadow. When she held it away from the paper, there was an obvious window to me, and there was one point in the video where she was away from the paper, and the table seemed exactly 90 degrees from my line of sight, and I still saw text through it. I just am having problems capturing that split second in the video, but the above scene I captured is right next to it.

Even if I'm wrong, and it is a tilt window, if you move this stone to the tiniest degree away from the perpendicular line of sight, this is a highly distracting "tilt window." I realize tilt windows cannot be avoided on most gems, let alone low RI gems, but this one example is one of the most distracting tilt windows that I have ever seen.

Here's another photo of it as good as I can possible get for a perpendicular line of sight to the table. There is obvious shading on the paper coming through, which makes it hard to see the text, but that definitely looks like I can see through past the bottom of the stone, when instead, it should be closed up, and if there is any light reflecting off the pavilion facets, they should come back to me (in this video, the camera shadow and the paper shadow are obscuring that however).

_20998.jpg
 
TL|1407080474|3725383 said:
Even if I'm wrong, and it is a tilt window, if you move this stone to the tiniest degree away from the perpendicular line of sight, this is a highly distracting "tilt window." I realize tilt windows cannot be avoided on most gems, let alone low RI gems, but this one example is one of the most distracting tilt windows that I have ever seen.
Click to expand...

That's where I was coming from on deciding against it ... tilt window or "normal" window, it just really detracted (for me) from the stone overall, especially given how I plan to set it.

So, for our cutters, I can truly appreciate that your craft is an art, and that great pride is taken in your work, and we appreciate that as customers. I would personally never make a statement in blatant "criticism" on one's work. But I am curious, would you prefer a customer just say "ehh, I'll pass" if they don't buy, or would you prefer they be (respectfully) honest in their reasons for not buying a stone? To just curtly say "I will pass" seems kinda rude to me, especially if there has been a bit of back & forth communications and time invested in the information provided. :(
 
Also, I am looking at the video & pics on my ipad. What color are you all seeing the stone? To me, it looks more dark green-blue, not just "dark blue" to me. I noted when I responded to her the color on my end, but admitted that very well could just be the difference in my monitor vs hers.
 
JoCoJenn|1407082714|3725403 said:
Also, I am looking at the video & pics on my ipad. What color are you all seeing the stone? To me, it looks more dark green-blue, not just "dark blue" to me. I noted when I responded to her the color on my end, but admitted that very well could just be the difference in my monitor vs hers.
Click to expand...

She said she's being "blinded by the sun" in the video, so I assume she's video taping this stone in bright light. That can do one of two things. It can actually make a stone appear darker than it is for some color shifters, or it can make a stone look brighter, have more sparkle, etc. . .

One should also note that there is probably camera shadow, and with our various monitors and the quality of her camera, making it possibly difficult to take pictures properly, therefore, there may be no way to know the exact color.

I appreciate that Andrew Gulij of Gemfix.com uses panatones to compare the color too because there is always some inaccuracy in conveying true color via the internet.
 
PrecisionGem|1407078781|3725355 said:
I wasn't asking about the Pricescope list, I'm well aware of that, and thanks for adding me to it, but the comment "I rank 4th in the country..." Where is this ranking? Has anyone ever heard or seen this?
Click to expand...


Ranked fourth in the country, out of a group of four, is aka last
 
When I watched the video & heard her say the stone was denim blue, I wondered about her camera settings or my monitor -- which hasn't been that far off on any stone before. Awful lot of green modifier for a denim stone & it's dark and not well saturated due to the cutting. I felt I could see through the sapphire even at times when it showed straight down, but if I was wrong, it doesn't matter -- the tilt window is so large, you would see very little else IRL.

I am boggled by her reaction to a simple thanks-but-I'll-pass-on-this-one. She won't last long as a vendor at that rate. Besides, when is she going to find time to cut gems between writing unpleasant emails to people who commit the sin of not buying? :lol:

Now you know, and we know -- I'm glad the experience didn't cost you good money!

--- Laurie
 
TL|1407083101|3725407 said:
JoCoJenn|1407082714|3725403 said:
Also, I am looking at the video & pics on my ipad. What color are you all seeing the stone? To me, it looks more dark green-blue, not just "dark blue" to me. I noted when I responded to her the color on my end, but admitted that very well could just be the difference in my monitor vs hers.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

She said she's being "blinded by the sun" in the video, so I assume she's video taping this stone in bright light. That can do one of two things. It can actually make a stone appear darker than it is for some color shifters, or it can make a stone look brighter, have more sparkle, etc. . .
a/quote]

Direct sun is never the way to look at a stone or judge it. Overcast or indirect sunlight (Shade) is how stones are always viewed in natural light. Attempting to use a camera on a stone in direct sun is asking too much of the sensor on the camera.
 
I actually requested indirect lighting pictures for that reason, Gene.

I cannot say how much I appreciate all the feedback in this thread. I have read so much and asked so many questions to learn & try to make informed decisions and ask the right questions when buying, and did all of that in this exchange. I just "lucked out" contacting the wrong seller I guess. Thank goodness there are other/better lapidaries! :)
 
Not sure where the vendor's education on faceting/gems is.........but too bad this wasn't a cordial exchange. In the end it really doesn't matter how you define things (although there certainly are basic definition's of tilt windows, bright sun for gem photo's, etc).... if a buyer doesn't want the stone (for whatever reason) it's always best to respect their decision rather than throw insults at them.
 
Good calls
 
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