Please Advise on a Deal for a Gimp

[BigGimpin'']

Hello All,

I am GimpyLou, a new subscriber.

Given the wisdom I have seen espoused on this site, I am hoping that someone could pass on some advice to me. Thank you in advance.

I have found a lovely ring. Here are the specs from my GIA cert:

Shape and Cutting Style - Rectangular Modified Brilliant
Measurements - 5.83 x 5.52 x 4.19mm
Weight - 1.24 carat

Proportions
Depth - 75.9%
Table - 72%
Girdle - Extremely Thin to Extremely Thick
Culet - None

Finish
Polish - Good
Symmetry - Good

Clarity Grade - Internally Flawless
Color Grade - H
Flourescence - Faint

Comments - None

Price (with setting): $5,500.00

I think this is a good stone, however I do have a few concerns that make GimpyLou a bit more...Gimpish. First, the GIA cert is from July 12, 2000. Second, the stone is already set. The Jeweler said that he would reset the stone in another setting for me, but, at this point, I have not been able to inspect the stone out of the setting it is currently in. It should be noted that the stone is beautiful and it has the brilliance that I am looking for.

The jeweler has said that I can take the stone to be reappraised to make sure that I am getting a fair price....I just want to make sure that I am getting a good deal.

Any thoughts on this? What about the date of the GIA cert? Is 2000 too old?

Sincerely,

GimpyLou

 

[Nicrez]

Lou, don't be mad, but I hate this stone for too many reasons. What shape is it? Radiant? Does it have cut corners?




First, the depth and table are way too high to perform all that well. I think you can do better.




The Girlde just plain scares me. Extremely thin to Extremely thin...I didn't even think that kind of terrible precision existed.




Good polish/good symmetry, you NEED to do better than that. At least VG or Excellent if possible.




It's internally flawless? No need to do that. No one walks around with a microscope and you pay for it, don't worry. My friend has an IF stone. I wasn't impressed, becasue the cut's so crappy the stone is watsed. I just feel pity for the stone that could have been....




Florescence, is alright, but me personally, I would try to get one without. Amny you'll find have it, some say it doesn't effect the stone, but that's your call




H color on a shaped stone MAY be a bit visible, especially when it's not cut to sparkle right. Get an F.




Here's my idea: Get a D & T % for a stone about or lower than 70. Get an F, Drop the clarity to VS2 or VS1, get a nicer size with that same price, and for god's sake, get a stone that's not set, that can be measured and really looked at. You can do better, move on!!!

Good luck and keep posting!

 

[BigGimpin'']

Nicrez,

Thanks for the advice. I was worried about the cut....I am going to NYC to see it again tomorrow and I may pull out of the deal.

I am not sure. The whole "cut thing" has me a bit thrown off as it seems as though the standards are are clearly established for round diamonds. However, standards for princess cut diamonds are less well defined. This makes looking at dimensions (and understanding cuts) a dicier proposition.

When I first examined the stone, I really tried to look at it in a variety of lighting (the store's lighting, outside, natural light, etc.) and it was quite nice.

Is a 2000 GIA cert too old? What do the dimensions mean for a princess cut diamond?

Thanks in advance,

BigGimpin'

 

[pqcollectibles]

Admittedly, I am not the best Princess adviser, but....

Nothing except the girdle really sets off any alarms for me. Ex Thin to Ex Thick is worrisome in a Princess Cut. Here's a link to the Princess Cut charts:
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/fnc1.asp

Other than the girdle, the rest of the specs look fine. The L to W ratio could be a little tigher. This diamond is slightly over the 1.05 upper limit of the Cut Chart.

Was the diamond sparkly in person? The reason I ask, is Dave Atlas, a PS Appraiser recently advised another Prin buyer to look for a table around 72%. Just curious.

 

[BigGimpin'']

pq,

Thanks for the advice and the link to the pricescope chart. Your assistance is greatly appreciated. I will see the diamond this weekend again to be sure that it has that fire I am looking for.

Upon initial review, the diamond had excellent sparkle. I will let you know if my new appraisal differs from my first (and usually best) impression.

Another question: The jeweler told me that IF diamonds are quite rare. Does this mean that this is a good investment? Just curious.

What about the GIA cert year thing; is it too old to accurately reflect any newer flaws in the stone? And the fact that this stone has already been set? Please advise.

Merci,

BG

 

[Nicrez]

I really have to say this stone is so worrysome, especially if you are shopping in NYC, you REALLY have some choices! If it's in the diamond district, you can look at a variety of stones in one day, even in a lunch hour! I used to hit 5 stores at lunch, and that was seeing several stones within each store.




My suggestion is to write down the ideal specs of a stone, like color range, clarity range, table and depth % ranges, size, etc...walk in, show it to people and see what they have. DON'T tell them price. SEE the stones. Then, IF you like one, ask how much off Rap first. They will realize you know something and are informed. No fooling a smart guy.




If you do this immediately, they may not show you some stones, so NO PRICE talk. If it's too high, negotiate, and be aggressive. Don't get talked into D's or IF's you don't need. Almost NO diamond under 3 cts is a good investment. They are too common on the market to command a good resale. An IF is only good for a person who NEEDS perfection in calrity. I DON'T recommend it, it's taking your buying pwere away from getting a larger or better cut stone!!!




Stay firm. Be friendly and listen to their talk, even if you know better.




I still say keep looking. NYC has SO many princess stones that you CAN find a better one at a good price, I know...I started out looking for a princess and saw some really pretty ones! Good luck!!!




If you do buy this stone, which if it speaks to you, I say go for it, but I would have him recert it for your assurance (at his cost). Why? He could have chipped it, or some info may need to be verified after that last cert. I spoke with a guy who said he was glad he did, because they had two "identical" stones, and by accident were swapped, and one had FL and the other was not flourescent...saved some $$$

 

[BigGimpin'']

Thanks for the advice, Nicrez. I greatly appreciate it. This stone was found in the diamond district....I have seen some other stones. This one had an excellent fire, however, I will continue searching before I decide.

Unfortunately, I live in DC so it is a bit harder to get up to NYC than I would like

.

I do think that I will continue the (eternal?) search....

Is there ANY rule of thumb on the whole GIA cert age thing (Argggh)? What about set stones? Are loose stone the way to go or what?

Thanks,

BG

 

[Nicrez]

If you want to frankenstein a ring, loose stones are the way to go, especially when you are determined to have the best stone for your buck.




I almost considered a round (yes, me) 1.5 diamond that was already set in a simple plat band. It was a branded cut, so I wasn't concerned with the angles, etc, because the price was right and the look was so overwhelmingly amazing. But that's a rare case.




I say keep looking, and I suggest you try the jeweler we used as a good reference if nothng else. He's friendly and helpful and has lovely stones! Philmar Jewelers on 578 Fifth Ave. See his stones, walk in see some others from all over. Look around, that place is CHOCK full of stones and it's literally just ONE BLOCK of stuff all jammed together!




Good luck and keep posting!

 

[BigGimpin'']

Thanks for the advice, Nicrez. Appreciate the assistance. Will keep you updated.

One more thing...The girdle is listed as extremely thin to extremely thick. What does this mean? it sounds this covers a range of girdle sizes. I am not sure what to make of such an evaluation.

Please assist.

Thanks,

BG

 

[Nicrez]

a girdle measurement is the distance of the pavillion facet to the crown facet, and the space between them. That space is essential as no cutter can be so percise to cut the stone so perfectly that the pavillion facet shape and size match perfectly to the crown facet.




Plus, it gives a jeweler theplace to put the prongs or to set the stone!




That in mind the use of a girdle is setting purposes and for a smoother transition appearance from pavillion to crown. If it's too thick, they may be packing on weight there to increase a stone's carat size to get more money (a .98 becomes a 1ct). Also, I have been told that if the girdle is TOO thick, it can actually affect the brilliance of the stone, and cause a bizarre reflection inside.




If it's too thin it chips and cracks, either moving around from viewer to dealer, or when set. It's not done with much precision if it's both extremes. A cutter is not perfect, but if you are paying good money for a luxury item, you might as well make sure there's no big blunder like that on a stone. It throws off a whole appearance, and may affect the sparkle sometimes.




Try drawing a line around the middle of an egg all the way around. If you do it quickly theres little chance those lines will perfectly meet. Do it slowly and calculating the cm height from the bottom and the line will most likely meet with more precision. Same idea. It's the level of precision of a cut that tends to be ignored, but is pretty indicative of the cut!

 

[fuffi]

Ex-thin girdles are dangerous in any stone, especially in a princess. Ex-thick girdles retain excess weight, make a stone harder to set, and are just plain unattractive. This diamond has the dimensions of a 1.05 ct stone, so you are essentially wasting money for carat weight you can't see. You can buy yourself a well cut 1.05 which will appear the same, and you'll save money.

 

[valeria101]

This is just a diamond chunk I would not take pride in to either have cut, sold or bought ! How many princess cuts of VARYING proportions have you seen to say that this looked particularly fine? It could, but the chance of this stone to stand out visually when almost every word and number of the description rings odd, are not at all great.

Sorry to say these. There are quite a few recent threads about princes cuts. If you like that stone, agree with the price and all, than I guess any argument is futile. However, I strong;y doubt it could stand comparison with what common sense and industry standards have already come to define as a "good cut".

 

[valeria101]

Here's one POST you may find interesting. There have been quite a few about princess cuts this week...

 

[BigGimpin'']

This is a very interesting point. I agree that we, as the buyers, have to make the executive decision when we purchase.

I need to see the diamond again, especially the girdle, to see what it looks like. I may have to continue the eternal search. When I initially saw the diamond I did not know what the girdle was. Now that I have done some research, I see that this "girdle thing" could be a problem.

I am considering having it apprasied at another dealer to see what is what. Who knows? I am a bit disappointed, admittedly

I was hoping that this search would soon come to an end.

The shops in DC that I have gone to are lousy. Any advice on any dealers in the DC area (a semi-equivalent diamond district)?

Thanks,

BG

 

[pqcollectibles]

Dirt Cheap Diamonds is near you.

www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com

DCD has hand selected, professionally evaluated Princess Cuts on hand, in stock. You can get complete detailed information, including Ideal Scope images for light leakage. You can arrange to visit by appointment. All you have to do is call ahead.

 

[BigGimpin'']

GREAT....Thanks for the input. I had not seen any decent wholesalers in the DC area. I will follow this lead assuming I decide to go in a different direction on the diamond that I found.

BG

 

[icelady]

BG,

I am not sure if you ever got any input on the age of the GIA cert on this diamond. If not, my opinion is that it is too old. Possibly it has been worn since this cert was done, and with an extremely thin girdle somewhere on the diamond, it could have sustained damage. With the cert being 4 years old, there are two options, either have the jeweler recert it, or have an independant appraiser look it over.

It does seem to be a bit deep, however, I am a big on seeing a stone to determine whether it "speaks" to you or not!

Good luck!

 

[Kay]

----------------
On 2/26/2004 6:43:16 PM icelady wrote:

BG,

I am not sure if you ever got any input on the age of the GIA cert on this diamond. If not, my opinion is that it is too old. Possibly it has been worn since this cert was done, and with an extremely thin girdle somewhere on the diamond, it could have sustained damage. With the cert being 4 years old, there are two options, either have the jeweler recert it, or have an independant appraiser look it over.
----------------

I agree, especially since you are paying for the IF clarity grade. The stone may have sustained damage since the time of certification and no longer qualify as IF, so you could be paying an IF price for a stone that now has a VS clarity.

 

[Mara]

I wanted to chime in and disagree about faint fluor being bad..in a stone like an H...the faint fluor can only HELP and not hurt...esp in terms of slight discount. In fact on an H/I/J etc stone I would prefer some faint fluor if not more medium for I/J etc. It will help the stone face up whiter.




Also, yes that girdle is frightening. It means that the girdle is at varying points around the entire stone extremely thin to extremely thick and *everything* in between. It will be pretty wavy. That's not so concerning....(the waviness), but you should focus on something more like thin-medium or thin-slightly thick. Definitely not extremely anything.




Lastly, as someone else already posted...use the Gem Appraisers charts at www.gemappraisers.org to help determine how what you find fits into the cut charts. 1A, 1B, 2A and possibly 2B would all be great stones. I would shy away from 3A - 4B IMO.




Good luck