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Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatment

missy

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/new-york-city-council-backs-5-cent-fee-on-plastic-bags.html?_r=0

The ubiquitous, easily torn, often doubled-up plastic bags from the grocery store — hoarded by dog owners, despised by the environmentally concerned and occasionally caught in trees — will soon cost at least a nickel in New York City.

The City Council voted 28 to 20 on Thursday to require certain retailers to collect a fee on each carryout bag, paper or plastic, with some exceptions. Mayor Bill de Blasio has expressed support for the measure.

Passage of the bill came after two years of debate and at least one other attempt by the city’s elected officials to charge a fee or tax on disposable bags. The legislation, modeled on similar laws in California and Washington, D.C., encountered an unusual amount of resistance and resulted in what council members said was one of the closest votes in years, on par with the extension of term limits passed during the tenure of Mr. de Blasio’s predecessor, Michael R. Bloomberg.

The vehemence of the opposition could perhaps be traced to plastic bags’ daily presence in the lives of New Yorkers, who often shop for groceries spontaneously and then lug the crinkly bags home to be reused as trash-can liners or to pick up after pets. As with previous measures adopted by the 51-member Council to prohibit smoking in bars and to include calorie information on restaurant menus, the impact of the bag bill, which would take effect in October, is likely to be immediate for millions of people.

That many will be unhappy about paying for bags that have always been free is the point.

“The fee is irritating, which is precisely why it works,” said Councilman Brad Lander, a Brooklyn Democrat and, with Councilwoman Margaret Chin, a Manhattan Democrat, a main sponsor of the legislation. “We don’t want to pay it so we’ll bring bags instead. So the fact that it’s irritating irritates a lot of people.”

The debate that preceded the bill’s approval on Thursday provided a rare sight in the Council Chambers, where most bills pass by large margins. At least one member called the bill “stupid,” prompting another to object. Mr. Lander, in his remarks, promised to show a colleague opposed to the measure where he could buy plastic bags in bulk online. There was also a fair amount of canine scatological humor.

To the bill’s proponents, the goal is not to collect the fee but to nudge New Yorkers into bringing their own reusable bags when they shop. Other cities that have introduced similar fees have seen a sharp drop in the use of plastic bags, petroleum products that can linger in landfills for centuries.

In New York City, the Sanitation Department has said it collects roughly 10 billion single-use plastic bags a year.

The Council settled on a 5-cent minimum fee after an earlier version of the bill called for 10 cents; stores, which will collect and keep the fees, can charge more if they choose.

Mr. de Blasio, a Democrat, said during a radio interview last week that people “must stop using plastic bags, for the good of our environment.”

“I think it’ll change the behavior quickly and not hit people’s pocketbooks in any meaningful way,” he continued.

Under the legislation, restaurants, including those that deliver and serve takeout, and street vendors of prepared food will not have to charge for the plastic bags they give to customers. Among the other exemptions: plastic bags used for produce, small paper medicine bags at pharmacies, bags used at state-regulated liquor stores and bags used by soup kitchens. Those buying groceries with food stamps are also exempt from paying the fee.


Paper bags were also included in the bill, sponsors said, because they have an environmental impact; if paper bags were not included, shoppers would simply switch from plastic to paper, resulting in no change in overall waste.

New York is hardly in the forefront in regulating plastic bags, though not for lack of trying. Mr. Bloomberg offered a proposal in 2008 for a 6-cent bag fee — 5 cents for stores; a penny for the city — before dropping it several months later amid strong opposition. At the time, one of the opponents on the Council was Simcha Felder, a Brooklyn Democrat who is now a state senator. Last month, Senator Felder introduced a bill that would prohibit the levying of local fees on bags; it passed a committee this week.

In discussing his opposition this week, Mr. Felder traced the 200-year history of how people have carried their groceries home, progressing from cloth bags to boxes to paper to plastic, and said that reusing bags presented a health hazard. He said he would hold a hearing on his bill in the city next month.

“That’s nothing less than a tax on the poor and the middle class — the most disadvantaged people,” he said.

Opposition to the measure has also come from the plastic bag industry — via its lobbying arm, the American Progressive Bag Alliance — as well as from those who, like Mr. Felder, said the fee amounted to a regressive tax, disproportionately affecting low-income and minority New Yorkers while failing to positive benefits for residents.

“I was in Washington, D.C., when the bag fee happened, and you know what? It was to clean up the river,” said Bertha Lewis, a social justice activist and longtime ally of Mr. de Blasio’s. “These funds are being dedicated to the pockets of the retailers.”

Ms. Lewis’s group, the Black Institute, collected thousands of signatures in opposition to the bill and received support from the American Progressive Bag Alliance — which, according to its chairman, changed its name in recent years from the Plastic Bag Alliance.



Some who had expressed early support for the bill were said to be wavering amid what council members described as a torrent of robocalls and fliers in certain districts in opposition to the measure, which would cover retail stores, grocers, bodegas and many street vendors.

The Council speaker, Melissa Mark-Viverito, who voted in favor of the bill, was asked at a news conference before the vote was taken if she used reusable bags when she went shopping. “Right now I don’t,” she said, adding that the bill would push her to do so. “And I’m more than happy to do that.”


I find it frustrating that people buying their groceries with food stamps are exempt from this charge. Why do I find that frustrating? Because the politicians stated this plastic bag fee is was about changing people's behavior and not making money yet they don't think it worthy to change all people's behavior? If one uses food stamps to buy food one can use a tote just as easily as another. Being on food stamps shouldn't make it OK to use plastic bags. Everyone has something around they can use to carry stuff and if not then instead the politicians should provide free cotton bags or whatever else to people who use food stamps. Problem solved.

This whole thing pisses me off because the opticians are so stupid and crooked too. A bad combination. :nono: :knockout:

calvinhobbesconservation.gif
 

missy

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Haha darn autocorrect and my poor typing skills and blurry near vision and inability (too impatient and impulsive to take the time to read it through) to proofread before I hit send. The perfect storm of misspelling and confusing the issue. :oops: Meant to write politicians but somehow autocorrect turned the word into opticians. LOL that was quite "short sighted" of me to miss. :lol:

OK back to me being pissed off at those darn POLITICIANS. :nono:
 

VRBeauty

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

When I was in Paris 8 or 10 years ago they were already charging for grocery bags. It was obvious the locals had adapted a long time ago, but it caught me by surprise. Just once though - I quickly figured out what that little wheeled cart/bag left in the entryway of our apartment was for.

I was in Los Angeles two plus years ago when it was transitioning over to charging for bags. In the month leading up to the changeover, I remember one of the grocery chains offering free reuseable bags with each 10 or 20 dollar purchase, to help folks prepare.

The city I live in chanced over at the beginning of this year, and surrounding unincorporated areas will probably do so starting next year. My city doesn't exempt people using food stamps as far as I know. It also doesn't allow you to purchase a disposable bag for s nickel; you pay a dime (I think) for a re-useable bag that's made of a much heavier plastic. Maybe something NYC should look into? :wink2:

As much as I do agree with the intent of these laws, I'm not looking forward to the day when I run out of stashed grocery bags and have to start buying (much larger) plastic bags to use in garbage cans and when cleaning the litter box.
 

TooPatient

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

VRBeauty|1462537948|4028036 said:
When I was in Paris 8 or 10 years ago they were already charging for grocery bags. It was obvious the locals had adapted a long time ago, but it caught me by surprise. Just once though - I quickly figured out what that little wheeled cart/bag left in the entryway of our apartment was for.

I was in Los Angeles two plus years ago when it was transitioning over to charging for bags. In the month leading up to the changeover, I remember one of the grocery chains offering free reuseable bags with each 10 or 20 dollar purchase, to help folks prepare.

The city I live in chanced over at the beginning of this year, and surrounding unincorporated areas will probably do so starting next year. My city doesn't exempt people using food stamps as far as I know. It also doesn't allow you to purchase a disposable bag for s nickel; you pay a dime (I think) for a re-useable bag that's made of a much heavier plastic. Maybe something NYC should look into? :wink2:

As much as I do agree with the intent of these laws, I'm not looking forward to the day when I run out of stashed grocery bags and have to start buying (much larger) plastic bags to use in garbage cans and when cleaning the litter box.
Your bottom statement hits my feelings. I hate to see waste. That said, the bags are super helpful and keep a lot of people from having to use other bags (that are often bigger, thicker, and come packaged in more stuff that gets tossed out).

A city near us charges for disposable bags. The stores found a way around that. They charge the fee and then reimburse for it on the same bill so it is a wash for the customer.


Some of our uses for the "wasted" bags from the grocery store:

paper: recycling (as in sits in kitchen and we sort our recycling into it), trash bag for under bathroom sinks

plastic: cat box cleaning, dog walking, lunch bag for field trips, packing/storing breakables (instead of buying bubble wrap), camping trash (for each meal we put trash in a bag so it is sealed as quickly as possible for storage until we leave)


We never throw any out. I always have a use for them. If I didn't have them, I would be purchasing other bags to do what these do. Often, that would mean far more waste...
 

House Cat

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
 

missy

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

House Cat said:
People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
This is supposed to promote usage of reusable bags/totes etc for groceries. So why shouldn't they be encouraged to do so also? I don't agree with your reasoning. What do you mean they cannot afford reusable bags? Use totes or whatever. Everyone has them and if not then let the city give those away for free like VR posted above. Yes this requires more effort on everyone's part. And has little to do with money or finances. Let's all work together OK? IMO that is just not a valid excuse HC. ::)

And I agree with both VR and TP. We reuse plastic bags as garbage bags under the sink and other uses and find plastic bags to be very useful.

And according to my dh who is an environmentalist the rep of plastic bags is far worse than their actual consequences. Except we are both glad about it being out of circulation sometime in the future hopefully anyway because plastic bags flying around are harmful to wildlife i.e. birds and other animals who might get trapped. So for that reason (and that reason mainly) this is a good thing despite the inconvenience. But not really for the reason being stated but another topic for another day.
 

monarch64

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Government overreach. You know what also shapes behavior? Positive reinforcement. Give me $.05 off for every time I bring my reusable bag. Or include reusable bags with purchases of $xx or more. Or just start furnishing them. I can buy plastic bags for pet waste disposal on my own, without a store giving them to me. I have never understood that argument. What exactly did people use for pet waste prior to plastic? :confused:
 

VRBeauty

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

monarch64|1462548368|4028105 said:
What exactly did people use for pet waste prior to plastic? :confused:
Newspaper - which has its limitations, not to mention the fact that many (most?) people no longer subscribe to an actual paper newspaper. And of course cat litter itself is a relatively new invention!
 

telephone89

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

I had to double check the date of this post to see if it was current. We've had this in place for years! However ours is unequal in its treatment in grocery stores.
Some stores charge the fee / no fee if you bring your own bag
Some stores charge the fee / give you the option to donate that 5c to charity if you bring your own bag
Some stores have no fee
Some stores have the fee, but only at the register (not at the self check out)

I don't think food stamps should be used toward plastic bags, it should be used toward food/necessities.
 

arkieb1

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

They tried to bring it in here (charging for plastic bags) and some companies still make you pay for bags but what happened is that people didn't start bringing their own bags, more people just paid for the bags, which defeated the purpose of trying to get people to use less bags. It did work however in some communities that heavily advertised the benefits of recycling. So you need both education and policy....
 

PintoBean

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

There is a korean supermarket chain - H Mart that we used to go to who had a neat system to encourage people to reuse/recycle. For every bag the customer brings in for bagging their own groceries, they get a 10 cent credit on their bill! I like this format better than charging people a plastic bag charge...
 

Laila619

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

House Cat|1462544711|4028078 said:
People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
Agree.

DH and I always have use for the plastic bags. I don't understand people who just throw them out. At least recycle them! Many stores have bins at the front specifically for this purpose, to bring back your bags for recycling.
 

rainwood

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Where I live, the only stores that can provide a plastic bag are drugstores. Every place else you can get a paper bag for 5 cents each. Many grocery stores already had the 5 cents credit for each bag you brought yourself. Where I shop, there's an option to donate the bag credit which I always do.

There was a big controversy when it was first proposed and passed, but the law has been in place for a few years and it really does change behavior. I keep my reusable bags in the car. Not everybody is going to change, because that's not going to happen, but most people bring their own bags these days. If you forget, you buy one. No biggie. What's funny is when I shop outside the city limits and someone asks if you want a bag and you get a plastic bag. It's like someone gave you a great gift for your birthday! An actual plastic bag - which we can also recycle if it didn't have food in it.

I don't know if people using food stamps are exempt from the bag charge here. I can see both sides of that issue, and don't feel strongly either way.
 

azstonie

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

monarch64|1462548368|4028105 said:
Government overreach. You know what also shapes behavior? Positive reinforcement. Give me $.05 off for every time I bring my reusable bag. Or include reusable bags with purchases of $xx or more. Or just start furnishing them. I can buy plastic bags for pet waste disposal on my own, without a store giving them to me. I have never understood that argument. What exactly did people use for pet waste prior to plastic? :confused:
Hey Monnie: I'm going to try to make a rationale for you about this not being governmental overreach :D Plastic bags are a real problem for waste management (a government issue) and a problem for animals who eat parts of them or even the entire thing.

I worked in government for 10 years, the regulation of toxic and hazardous waste, and I assure you if I wasn't in between you and Corporate America, your water and air and soil would be unsafe.
 

VRBeauty

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

I just want to make it clear that although I see some drawbacks to the plastic bag ban, I do support it. I was mostly out of town when my city's bag ordinance went into effect at the beginning of this year so I missed all the hoopla, and I'm kind of slow to catch on. :wink2: Even so, I'm getting better about remembering to keep re-useable bags in the car, and to bring them into the store and to put them back in the car when with me when I shop. I also was very good about re-using or recycling my bags, but I'm sure not everyone is... and I hate seeing the bags blowing around the street and getting caught on trees and fences etc. And I understand, as azstonie mentioned, that they're a real pain for waste management operations.

Here the ban applies only to grocery stores, so there will still be some bags available to use for garbage cans etc. Plus there's not bag ban in my father's town, where I spend about half of my time. :naughty: But often as not, I use my own bags for grocery shopping there too.

My mother actually started stockpiling disposable grocery bags a few years ago, convinced that the [big bad - ed.] government was going to take them away soon. So if I get desperate for disposable bags, there's a big stash somewhere in my father's garage that I can raid. :lol:
 

House Cat

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

missy|1462545154|4028082 said:
House Cat said:
People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
This is supposed to promote usage of reusable bags/totes etc for groceries. So why shouldn't they be encouraged to do so also? I don't agree with your reasoning. What do you mean they cannot afford reusable bags? Use totes or whatever. Everyone has them and if not then let the city give those away for free like VR posted above. Yes this requires more effort on everyone's part. And has little to do with money or finances. Let's all work together OK? IMO that is just not a valid excuse HC. ::)

And I agree with both VR and TP. We reuse plastic bags as garbage bags under the sink and other uses and find plastic bags to be very useful.

And according to my dh who is an environmentalist the rep of plastic bags is far worse than their actual consequences. Except we are both glad about it being out of circulation sometime in the future hopefully anyway because plastic bags flying around are harmful to wildlife i.e. birds and other animals who might get trapped. So for that reason (and that reason mainly) this is a good thing despite the inconvenience. But not really for the reason being stated but another topic for another day.
Everyone has totes?

So, the 16 year old mother who doesn't have anything at all... and is receiving welfare and food stamps has 10 totes lying around to carry groceries home?

When I was 19 and just had my child, I had one "tote" and it was my son's diaper bag. Not everyone has the same kind of stuff just lying around their house that you do. There really ARE poor people in this country...very, very poor people, without disposable income, who count the change they scraped out of every crevice of their lives to feed themselves toward the end of their paychecks. They aren't buying "totes."


A giveaway would be nice. Maybe the environmental groups could have a fundraiser. :bigsmile:
 

monarch64

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

azstonie|1462564652|4028219 said:
monarch64|1462548368|4028105 said:
Government overreach. You know what also shapes behavior? Positive reinforcement. Give me $.05 off for every time I bring my reusable bag. Or include reusable bags with purchases of $xx or more. Or just start furnishing them. I can buy plastic bags for pet waste disposal on my own, without a store giving them to me. I have never understood that argument. What exactly did people use for pet waste prior to plastic? :confused:
Hey Monnie: I'm going to try to make a rationale for you about this not being governmental overreach :D Plastic bags are a real problem for waste management (a government issue) and a problem for animals who eat parts of them or even the entire thing.

I worked in government for 10 years, the regulation of toxic and hazardous waste, and I assure you if I wasn't in between you and Corporate America, your water and air and soil would be unsafe.
That's great. I don't need a law to tell me plastic bags suck for the environment, though. It's common sense, and anyone, educated/intelligent/smart or the polar opposite of those descriptors can see for themselves the negative effect plastic bags have on the environment by walking to the bus stop or down the block. Corporations/retailers need to take responsibility and stop offering them. The end. Find a more sustainable way to dispose of pet waste and stop being lazy about it and not thinking outside the box. Be proactive in life and stop waiting for the government to tell you what to do. :bigsmile:
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

[quote="House Cat|

So, the 16 year old mother who doesn't have anything at all... and is receiving welfare and food stamps has 10 totes lying around to carry groceries home?

[/quote]
Then she shouldn't have a baby at 16.
 

TooPatient

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

House Cat|1462573302|4028282 said:
missy|1462545154|4028082 said:
House Cat said:
People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
This is supposed to promote usage of reusable bags/totes etc for groceries. So why shouldn't they be encouraged to do so also? I don't agree with your reasoning. What do you mean they cannot afford reusable bags? Use totes or whatever. Everyone has them and if not then let the city give those away for free like VR posted above. Yes this requires more effort on everyone's part. And has little to do with money or finances. Let's all work together OK? IMO that is just not a valid excuse HC. ::)

And I agree with both VR and TP. We reuse plastic bags as garbage bags under the sink and other uses and find plastic bags to be very useful.

And according to my dh who is an environmentalist the rep of plastic bags is far worse than their actual consequences. Except we are both glad about it being out of circulation sometime in the future hopefully anyway because plastic bags flying around are harmful to wildlife i.e. birds and other animals who might get trapped. So for that reason (and that reason mainly) this is a good thing despite the inconvenience. But not really for the reason being stated but another topic for another day.
Everyone has totes?

So, the 16 year old mother who doesn't have anything at all... and is receiving welfare and food stamps has 10 totes lying around to carry groceries home?

When I was 19 and just had my child, I had one "tote" and it was my son's diaper bag. Not everyone has the same kind of stuff just lying around their house that you do. There really ARE poor people in this country...very, very poor people, without disposable income, who count the change they scraped out of every crevice of their lives to feed themselves toward the end of their paychecks. They aren't buying "totes."


A giveaway would be nice. Maybe the environmental groups could have a fundraiser. :bigsmile:

I spent much of last year digging through purses, drawers, couches, etc for spare change. That change went to gas ($5.00 in quarters and dimes...) or groceries. I sold anything I could manage out of our house just to keep the electricity and water on.

If we didn't have a few already, I would not have purchased any reusable bags. Even at $1 each, that was very needed money. I was already skipping meals and carefully stretching food as far as I could make it. The $0.05 bag fee would be bad enough! That adds up too.
 

Arcadian

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Aldi's is a store where you have to buy bags. I believe save-a-lot is the other. Both places have all types of boxes you can use for free if you don't buy a bag, which IMO is a better option. I forget how much they charge. I've not been to an Aldi's in ages until I went to Florida recently. There you also have to "rent" your shopping basket too.
 

House Cat

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Arcadian|1462579106|4028334 said:
Aldi's is a store where you have to buy bags. I believe save-a-lot is the other. Both places have all types of boxes you can use for free if you don't buy a bag, which IMO is a better option. I forget how much they charge. I've not been to an Aldi's in ages until I went to Florida recently. There you also have to "rent" your shopping basket too.
I always hear about Aldi! I wish we had one in California!!!
 

House Cat

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

TooPatient|1462579095|4028333 said:
House Cat|1462573302|4028282 said:
missy|1462545154|4028082 said:
House Cat said:
People using food stamps should be exempt.

They would be judged for being able to afford reusable bags if they had them.

They probably can't afford reusable bags.

Their food stamp money should be used for food only, not plastic bags!
This is supposed to promote usage of reusable bags/totes etc for groceries. So why shouldn't they be encouraged to do so also? I don't agree with your reasoning. What do you mean they cannot afford reusable bags? Use totes or whatever. Everyone has them and if not then let the city give those away for free like VR posted above. Yes this requires more effort on everyone's part. And has little to do with money or finances. Let's all work together OK? IMO that is just not a valid excuse HC. ::)

And I agree with both VR and TP. We reuse plastic bags as garbage bags under the sink and other uses and find plastic bags to be very useful.

And according to my dh who is an environmentalist the rep of plastic bags is far worse than their actual consequences. Except we are both glad about it being out of circulation sometime in the future hopefully anyway because plastic bags flying around are harmful to wildlife i.e. birds and other animals who might get trapped. So for that reason (and that reason mainly) this is a good thing despite the inconvenience. But not really for the reason being stated but another topic for another day.
Everyone has totes?

So, the 16 year old mother who doesn't have anything at all... and is receiving welfare and food stamps has 10 totes lying around to carry groceries home?

When I was 19 and just had my child, I had one "tote" and it was my son's diaper bag. Not everyone has the same kind of stuff just lying around their house that you do. There really ARE poor people in this country...very, very poor people, without disposable income, who count the change they scraped out of every crevice of their lives to feed themselves toward the end of their paychecks. They aren't buying "totes."


A giveaway would be nice. Maybe the environmental groups could have a fundraiser. :bigsmile:

I spent much of last year digging through purses, drawers, couches, etc for spare change. That change went to gas ($5.00 in quarters and dimes...) or groceries. I sold anything I could manage out of our house just to keep the electricity and water on.

If we didn't have a few already, I would not have purchased any reusable bags. Even at $1 each, that was very needed money. I was already skipping meals and carefully stretching food as far as I could make it. The $0.05 bag fee would be bad enough! That adds up too.
Hugs to you. I am sorry that times have been so tough for you. I hope things are getting better.
 

missy

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

House Cat, I understand what you are saying and I still think everyone needs to participate in protecting our environment and our wildlife. They are all precious resources and no one should be expert from doing their part. Nothing worthwhile is easy and it is our planet and we are in this together. Rich or poor.

As I wrote before you don't need to have money to respect and care for the environment in whatever way you can. To this end I think that people who pay for their food with food stamps should automatically qualify for free reusable bags. That should go a long way in alleviating the problem of those who cannot afford or who don't already have reusable totes/bags etc.
Is there any other reason you can think of why people who are using food stamps should not participate in this program?

TooPatient, That was a very dark time you guys went through and I am so glad you and your dh are doing better and I am continuing to send good luck vibes for your dh's new job prospect.

Arkieb, I agree education is key. As with most things it is a crucial part of the equation to promote change for the positive.

Arcadian, what is the purpose of renting your shopping basket? Is there an environmentally based reason for this or is it that they are afraid people will steal them?

Laila, yes there are lots of uses for plastic bags and they are still going to be available at a price. For example what else can we use for garbage bags? Is there a better option? A biodegradable garbage bag? I have to ask my dh about this.

VRBeauty, it will be difficult for many I think in the beginning. Change is always a bit challenging but hopefully it will be something that becomes easy peasy once we all get used to it. LOL to your mom for stockpiling plastic bags. We did the same thing with incandescent bulbs. I like the way she thinks!


Telephone , I am glad you had it in your area for so long already but it doesn't seem as if that many are participating? Yes making it mandatory for all is the best way to promote change in behavior IMO. Not a wishy washy bill.


Pinto, I am right there with you here. That's a great way to handle it I agree. Whole Foods does this (at least in our area) and I think it is fantastic. If you bring your own reusable bag they give 10 cents off your bill for each bag. That is a good way to encourage someone to bring their own reusable bags IMO. They have been doing this for years. So instead of penalizing someone who doesn't bring their own bag they are rewarding those who do. Another good way to encourage respect for the environment and doing one's part as best they can.

Rainwood, it doesn't surprise me you guys had this in place for a long time already. Your area is much more environmentally conscious, responsible and caring than where we are. Lots of good people there. :appl:

Kristie, so scary but true I know. As much as I hate big government and big brother watching yada yada yada I know sometimes (sometimes!) it is a necessary evil. I just think that they are too much in our lives and definitely too much in our personal business and reproductive rights! :nono:

Monnie I agree with you in that I wish people would take more responsibility in general but IDK maybe I'm cynical but it seems everywhere I look people are passing the buck and don't take responsibility for their actions. Actions always have consequences right?

And as for corporate America I don't have lots of hope they will do what is best for people or the environment. Greed seems to rule over doing the right thing when it comes to big business. At least from what I can see. Look at the food industry. Did you watch that documentary Fed Up? HA that was government and big business in cahoots together ruining our lives.

IMO we need to take responsibility for ourselves and be proactive to make this the best life and world possible. But until everyone does this we are stuck with government sometimes helping and sometimes hurting. Not the best solution but it's what we have right now. Hopefully more and more people will begin thinking for themselves and not being completely selfish and making smart decisions so we can make this world a better place.
 

monarch64

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

missy|1462617068|4028507 said:
Monnie I agree with you in that I wish people would take more responsibility in general but IDK maybe I'm cynical but it seems everywhere I look people are passing the buck and don't take responsibility for their actions. Actions always have consequences right?

And as for corporate America I don't have lots of hope they will do what is best for people or the environment. Greed seems to rule over doing the right thing when it comes to big business. At least from what I can see. Look at the food industry. Did you watch that documentary Fed Up? HA that was government and big business in cahoots together ruining our lives.

IMO we need to take responsibility for ourselves and be proactive to make this the best life and world possible. But until everyone does this we are stuck with government sometimes helping and sometimes hurting. Not the best solution but it's what we have right now. Hopefully more and more people will begin thinking for themselves and not being completely selfish and making smart decisions so we can make this world a better place.
Missy, there is not a plastic bag ban here because people as well as stores (co-ops and corporations alike) have been offering alternatives for years now. We live in flyover country in the Midwest that everyone likes to make fun of for being backward and behind the times. But, when you live in the midst of agriculture, people are hyper aware of what their behavior is doing to the environment. Our Kroger gives away reuseable 6 pack wine bags and sells reuseable totes for .99 although if someone needed a tote and couldn't afford it, I GUARANTEE the customer service team there would make sure one was provided. Aldi's has been mentioned already but no plastic there, you are expected to use boxes or provide your own bag although they sell their own reuseable totes as well. We now have Lucky's Market which does not offer plastic and gives you little wooden tokens good for donations towards several local non-profits when you bring your own bags. Otherwise they supply brown paper bags with handles that we reuse until the handles break and then I lay them in my garden to kill weeds or give them to my daughter to paint or color on. The tokens are fed into little red gumball machines as you exit the building. It's such a cool concept and one that makes you feel twice as good--you've used your own bags and you've helped someone else. We are getting a Whole Foods pretty soon, not sure what their setup is but doubt if they offer plastic. The co-op grocer in town does not offer plastic. No one had to step in and tell the business owners nor the people what to do here. We took accountability and figured it out on our own.

Crap like the 20 oz soda ban by Giuliani just bugs the snot out of me. Stop treating Americans like little kids and expect more, and they will be more. Look at other generations and look at what has or is working and follow that example instead of going "oh they're so OLD, or oh, they're just so ENTITLED."

I guess I'm in that hopeful stage of life, and since I'm raising a child want to instill in her the values I had growing up which were to be a leader, make good choices, and do what you can to help people; surround yourself with others who are interested in doing the same. When I lived in Chicago for 7-8 years, I did feel a sense of cynicism and entitlement from a lot of people, although when I sought out people like myself who cared more for the environment and others than they did for themselves, I noticed that my tribe exists everywhere. The movement towards sustainability will succeed, of that I am sure. Maybe in some cities a government imposed ban is necessary to get people to wake up and pay attention, I will give you that. But not here, and I am still strongly opposed to it.

It is World Naked Gardening Day, by the way. Hope everyone is celebrating! LOL
 

missy

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Thanks for the reminder about world naked gardening day. We will do our part. Don't worry I'll spare you the pics though. :cheeky:

I agree in theory with all you have written Monnie. However things are not the way you describe all over so until then we do what we can to make others more aware and responsible for the future. I guess I'm just an old cynical NYer. I am of the baby boomer generation. But trying to be hopeful too! :appl:
 

monarch64

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

missy|1462632159|4028577 said:
Thanks for the reminder about world naked gardening day. We will do our part. Don't worry I'll spare you the pics though. :cheeky:

I agree in theory with all you have written Monnie. However things are not the way you describe all over so until then we do what we can to make others more aware and responsible for the future. I guess I'm just an old cynical NYer. I am of the baby boomer generation. But trying to be hopeful too! :appl:
You're welcome! :lol:
 

House Cat

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

I agree take we should take responsibility for the environment. I really do. I am San Francisco Bay Area born, hippie raised, organic gardening before it was cool, taught to recycle before it was a fad, Prius driving, actual tree hugging goodness. It is my feeling that most Californians are environmentally conscious without knowing it. It is just a part of our daily routine.


But when we focus in on the poor buying plastic bags as our politicians are still allowing big businesses to rape, pillage, and scorch our earth, I think the priorities are a little skewed. Maybe this energy pointed at the poor buying plastic bags would be better spent elsewhere?
 

missy

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

Not sure who you are referring to HC but I am content and pleased as to where my energy is directed. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 

PintoBean

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

monarch64|1462632852|4028588 said:
missy|1462632159|4028577 said:
Thanks for the reminder about world naked gardening day. We will do our part. Don't worry I'll spare you the pics though. :cheeky:

I agree in theory with all you have written Monnie. However things are not the way you describe all over so until then we do what we can to make others more aware and responsible for the future. I guess I'm just an old cynical NYer. I am of the baby boomer generation. But trying to be hopeful too! :appl:
You're welcome! :lol:
Monnie you are KILLING me this week :lol: :lol: :lol: I keep going back to look at the cat and chihuahua post :lol: :lol: :lol: and now you've opened my eyes :shock: to world naked gardening day! :lol: :lol: :lol: :dance: :dance: :dance: you are the best physical trainer because my abs are so sore!
 

monarch64

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Re: Plastic bag charge in NYC coming soon but unequal treatm

PintoBean|1462642972|4028661 said:
monarch64|1462632852|4028588 said:
missy|1462632159|4028577 said:
Thanks for the reminder about world naked gardening day. We will do our part. Don't worry I'll spare you the pics though. :cheeky:

I agree in theory with all you have written Monnie. However things are not the way you describe all over so until then we do what we can to make others more aware and responsible for the future. I guess I'm just an old cynical NYer. I am of the baby boomer generation. But trying to be hopeful too! :appl:
You're welcome! :lol:
Monnie you are KILLING me this week :lol: :lol: :lol: I keep going back to look at the cat and chihuahua post :lol: :lol: :lol: and now you've opened my eyes :shock: to world naked gardening day! :lol: :lol: :lol: :dance: :dance: :dance: you are the best physical trainer because my abs are so sore!
Ha! Glad I made you laugh! :wavey:
 
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