Pink rubies?

[glitterata]

I was looking at some earrings today at the local market. "Those are 22 karat gold, with emeralds and pink--um--pink rubies," said the woman.

"You mean pink sapphires?" I asked.

"No, pink rubies."

"I thought to be rubies, they had to be red," I said, "otherwise they''re sapphires."

"No, these are rubies. They''re pink rubies, which is light red."

Who''s right? Is there such a thing as a pink ruby?

 

[dragonsheart]

I have never heard of that before.

 

[DiamondExpert]

This is a corundum conundrum as Richard Hughes points out in his informative "Ruby & Sapphire" book. Technically all red corundum is ruby, and since the color pink is a pale or light saturation of red hue, corundum of this color is ruby.

Apparently the term pink sapphire was unknown prior to the 20th century, and pink corundum was called "female ruby" - red corundum "male ruby" - and not considered very valuable. The term "pink sapphire" was "invented" when it was decided (incorrectly - but even this is controversial today) that pink was a unique color and not a red hue.

While it may be technically correct to call any pink corundum a ruby, I believe that this is terminology is frequently used to extract a higher premium for the material.

This controversy apparently runs very deep, both among dealers and even gem labs. Anyway, this book and many of Hughes' other writings are always informative, witty and frequently irreverent!

 

[dimonbob]

Yes, they are both corundum. If it is red it is ruby. If it is any other color it is sapphire. Red is not pink. Pink sapphire is only ruby when you are the one trying to sell it.

Back in the 70's there was a battle between a Ruby & Sapphire dealer in Los Angles and the GIA in Santa Monica over some pink sapphires that the dealer wanted GIA to call rubies. I was on the GIA staff back then and saw those pink sapphires. Several of the staff saw those stones and they all said they were pink sapphires. They were bright and beautiful but they were for sure pink sapphires. I am not exactly sure where the exact line is between red and pink but I know a ruby when I see one and I know a pink sapphire when I see it. I would venture to guess the dealer in question purchased the corundum as pink sapphire and wanted to sell them as red ruby and make a tidy profit. He was not happy with GIA for not seeing things his way.

This is like the diamond dealer that buys an uncertified two or three carat diamond and hopes he can get a F VS1 out of GIA and it comes back a G VS2. He will not be making as much money as he was planning.

 

[dragonsheart]

thank you for telling us that. i did not know there were pink rubbies out there.

 

[DiamondExpert]

dimonbob:

I would agree with you in that when you see corundum that isn't red of a certain level of saturation and doesn't have too high a level of any secondary modifying color(s), I call 'em sapphires (and by implication, the present case included, I suspect anyone who is trying to flog that color of corundum as ruby is trying to (mis)represent it for maximal financial gain).

However, I think Hughes also has a point - if you are going to define ruby simply as red corundum, and if you take the red hue and slowly decrease the saturation level eventually you get pink, then by that definition you have to call pink corundum ruby. This is, I think, his argument.

Otherwise, it would be necessary to more carefully define ruby as red corundum at and above only a certain level of saturation, and having an absence of defined levels of secondary colors. After all, red corundum at the higher levels of saturation can have low levels of secondary modifiers such as blue, purple, brown, etc., without disqualifying it from being called a ruby.

The weakness of the, 'I don't know how to define it, but I will know it when I see it approach,' is that this leaves the door open for anyone to make any representation they want in marketing a stone to their best (financial)advantage. Unfortunately, we all know that this rampant, especially in the colored stone world, anyway?

The weakness of any attempt to more rigidly define a ruby color is it's impracticality.

 

[lequelam]

Vietnam has found a ruby mine in Yenbai Province sometimes in year 1997 , was known as finest ruby in region . I have owned a 0.54 CARAT
Pink ruby unearthed from that mine but I have no pics to post . Here is some pics about our Vietnam pink rubies for you

 

[lequelam]

Some more Vietnam rubies

 

[lequelam]

More pics , enjoy

 

[lequelam]

Our rubies is from birth place of our President HO CHI MINH

 

[valeria101]

All in all it is nearly impossible for us (behind the screen) to get an idea of what you have been shown as 'pink ruby'. Some fine rubies look pinkish and are still rubies of great quality. Rubies with a strong purple modifier in their hue and medium (best) or lower saturation show a puzzling 'pink' (or magenta), but they are legitimate rubies with the respective claim to fame and money. However, the absence of the pinkish look or strong color modifier does rise the price of a ruby sky high. And, of course, there is fraud.




One gets to see all kinds of pinkish things among the best rubies certified as such by reputable labs (AGL, GIA). Since the ruby-pink sapphire is solved by a fine line in saturation, some intermediate stones fall darn close to the pink/red line of fire. In these cases, the price reflects the vice: rubies approaching pink sapphire classification would be severely cheaper (if this is the word for it) and pink sapphires approaching ruby classification (either by tone or saturation, mind you) also start to claim ruby-like prices. So? really, words are words (ruby or sapphire) and I tend not to mind them much as long as I do not mind the price!

Of course, I don't assume this judgement is right, but if I was to cry 'fraud'

every time a colored stone is presented as what is not... I would probably buy diamonds by now

 

[Sagebrush]

Que Lam,
Was impressed by your very articulate reply to the question about pink rubies as well as by your pics. Like to hear more about the Vietnamese mines. Not much has appeared in the literature in the past few years giving the impression that mining had somehow been disrupted. Is this the case? Also, tried unsucessfully to view your website. Got an error message.

So, what is happening in ruby mining in your country at the present time? What sort of production? Is anyone in the U.S. representing and selling the Vietnamese stones at this time.

Dick Sage

 

[elmo]

Dick Hughes names Vietnam the #2 quality source for ruby behind Burma. That's quite an accolade. However, even if the mines are producing, I doubt I will see the finest Vietnamese material here, at least documented as such. Burma goods carry a premium in the marketplace, so why get a report indicating Vietnamese origin instead of selling a stone undocumented as "Burma" origin?

Wise's book essentially makes the point "buy the stone, not the origin"...good advice from a buyer's perspective in that one can easily pay too much for what is in fact an average or unattractive stone that has the "right" origin; however, a seller uses this to argue that fine Vietnamese goods should bring the same price as Burma goods if they have the same look. In reality, though, non-Burma stones will not have the same desirability and liquidity in the market.

So what is the incentive to represent Vietnamese ruby as from Vietnam? I expect that it is not in the seller's best interest unless the stones have such a pink color that they are clearly less than fine.

As a side note, I've talked with folks who buy in Asia who say they won't purchase Vietnamese ruby because two thirds of what they're offered is synthetic. That also has to change if we're to see these in the US. If there is production, it might be a nice niche for someone here who's originally from Vietnam to follow up on, especially now that there's a trade ban in effect with the #1 ruby source

.

 

[caratgirl]

Hi Que Lam,




I really like the last photo, what is the size and carat weght of that stone? It looks marvelous.

 

[lequelam]

Dear ALL ,
Thanks for your respones.For your information, there are many small group trying to exploit the ruby mine illegally ,they do not have a proper production and that people somehow destroy the environment.That is why Vietnam gemstone mines are currently under government control.
However some minor group is still working somewhere that I really do not know. Last few year ago ,they unearthed a very big rough ruby( consider world class )about 1000 CARAT ( not exactly ) and it was reserved as Vietnam National Treasure. Read more ...

" Vietnam abounds in natural resources and precious gemstones in particular. Vietnam gemstones such as ruby, sapphire, spinel, zircon, olivin, topa and granat..., have in recent years been a heated issue in domestic and international markets. Especially, Vietnam's ruby is highly valued in terms of not only deposits but also quality, said to be equal to that of Myanmar. Vietnam's two largest ruby mines are Yen Bai and Nghe An.

The 1,960g ruby, found in Tan Huong, Yen Binh, Yen Bai Province on April 6, 2000

The 2,160g Vietnam Star ruby, considered a national treasure, also found in Tan Huong on April 25, 2000, which has been decided by the Prime Minister to be preserved as a national treasure"

There is no one representing for Vietnam's gemstone in USA at the moment . You can find a lot of rough and cut gems in Vietnam . Most of the stores in Ho Chi Minh City are located on Dong Khoi Street District 1 and Hang Bac Street in Hanoi City .

I know one of truthful semiprecious and precious gems store in HCMC and one in Hanoi , they will never offer you a fake or simulated gems but you should bargain for a good deal .

They will never show you the nice stone until you ask.

Will write again soon

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Very astute observations, Elmo.

Very informative reporting, Que Lam. I hope you stick around.

 

[lequelam]

Dear Carat Girl ,
For the ruby that you mentioned , this is specimen photo by Bart Curren / ICA; specimen: Rafco International Gem Co.)
I don't know the size ...of it . However , I will post some more Vietnam 's rubies that I own for you later .
Here is some more information about our corumdum

 

[lequelam]

Dear ALL ,
As promised , I post some tiny small Vietnam's rubies for you.
The biggest one is 0.54 CARAT - pink ruby.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Pretty Stones...




When defining pink sapphires where is the line drawn as far as tone and color saturation and the amount of pink present as the primary color hue particularly in some of your lighter stones ...

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 12/1/2003 1:42:43 AM lequelam wrote:

Dear ALL ,
As promised , I post some tiny small Vietnam's rubies for you.
The biggest one is 0.54 CARAT - pink ruby. ----------------

Nice color! Why can't those be four times bigger and just as clean?

Anyway, I was wandering about something a tad different: star rubies. I know that Vietnam has produced some awesome double stars and a good quantity of opaque star rubies with great color and asterism. However, this statement is only based on a limited sample of stocks from US dealers. Are stars a frequent encounter? How about pink ones? Who might sell these... It is by no means straight forward to find a source in Vietnam for single stones or small lots. Anyone on the web? Ok, these are so many questions. ANY answer would be welcome

 

[winyan]

Interestingly enough, I'm wearing my pad sapphire and yellow diamond ring at this moment. The pad sapphire has enough pink in it to emulate the lotus blossom, however, it is defused with the salmon color of dawn to make for one gorgeous shade.

I know this stone is sapphire, not ruby despite it's slight pink tones.

I also know it's gorgeous.

win

 

[elmo]

There is a difference between pinkish-orange / orangy-pink and straight red with low saturation. Here is an image of the GRS lab's ruby master set from their website...the first few on the left are pink, but they're still ruby. Hughes argues in his book that stones with even less saturation are still ruby (shows a great photo), but I wonder if GRS considers stones with less saturation than the left stone here to be pink sapphire.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 12/24/2003 2:01:18 PM elmo wrote:

I wonder if GRS considers stones with less saturation than the left stone here to be pink sapphire.----------------

You are playing two factors at once: hue and saturation. Anything more purple than the left-most stone and anything more orange than the right-most stone would be "sapphire" for GRS. These stones (in the picture)have medium tone and outstanding saturation: I bet that going lower in saturation the thing would still be a ruby, at whichever tone. Is there an explanation about this on GRS? I failed to find this pic in 5min. If you see a stone anything like these, get it!

 

[elmo]

I agree, there's some shift from slightly purplish secondary color on the left to slightly orangy secondary color on the right. But I think saturation is supposed to be the more important variable with these...subtitle of the photo is "Master Set GRS for Rubies ranging from pinkish-red to 'pigeon's blood' (vivid red)", at http://www.gemresearch.ch/mstr_set.htm.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 12/24/2003 8:28:00 PM elmo wrote:


subtitle of the photo is 'Master Set GRS for Rubies ranging from pinkish-red to 'pigeon's blood' (vivid red)'----------------

Thanks for the link. Ok, I don't exactly know how GRS does its grading. However, the subtitle still leave me in the dark. If 'pink" is defines as "low saturation red" than what can "pinkish-red" be? Borderline saturation? And "pigeon-blood" is a folkloric term for "everything best" in a ruby. If this line-up is only about saturation, yes, you are right. As far as I know, "ruby" is all that falls within certain intervals of tone, saturation and hue. If this set shows saturation variations only (and this would be very hard to select, if the stones are all natural). Then, yes, anything less saturated will be "pink sapphire". And I agree with you, of course.

 

[tigereye]

Hallo
Im new here so at 1th " hy everibudy ".
I hade a trip to BURMA 6 month ago.This is a 1.25ct ruby from Mogok that happen to like me to be he's new owners.The pic' is bad but the pinkish color is wats important.So... it is Ruby,it is 100% from BURMA,is it red?!

All the best
tigereye G.G

 

[valeria101]

Man, there is no way one can tell color on a computer monitor well enough to answer such questions. My first impulse is to say no: on my monitor the piece is purple-red with some so-so saturation or, in other words, pink sapphire. I do not feel good about saying this, 'cause all I see are some reflections from inclusions which look bubble-gum pink to me, and a small area of transparency which looks dark (not lighted). I surely hope you did not get ripped off...

 

[strmrdr]

Every time I see the subject of this thread I want to shout:
YOU MEAN PINK SAPPHIRES!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tigereye]

o.k
Yes it is pink...
I bot rough cristals and cut it myself here in Israel.
Rough stuf dont cost a lot in Burma.
Did I say that Burma is a wonderful place to visit?IT IS!
I felt ther like ALISA IN WONDERLAND,i think every gem lover whuld fill the same in Burma.
(forgiv my bad english)
tigereye
Tel Aviv
Israel

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 1/10/2004 9:35:24 AM tigereye wrote:

o.k
I felt ther like ALISA IN WONDERLAND,i think every gem lover whuld fill the same in Burma.

----------------

You surely are right! It is whole different experience to see the stuff comming of the gound than browsing a database... If you ended up with a couple of larger, eye clean stones of THAT color, surely your trip must have been enjoyable indeed. Best of luck!