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Picking Best Round Cut Diamond (VS1 vs SI1)

naz20xl

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
5
Hey everyone,

Looking to get some expert opinions on two different round cut diamonds for an engagement ring for my soon to be fiancee. I've attached both reports from the diamonds, the first one is a VS1 at $7225 and the second is a SI1 at $6955. Just trying to get opinions on if the price for these GIA certified diamonds sound right, and which would be the best option. They both look great in person, and I'm leaning towards the SI1 due to it having a better finish, and also being serialized. Any of your thoughts or guidance would greatly be appreciated!

vs1_0.jpg

si1_0.jpg
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Well. They both suck.

There, ripped off that bandaide for you. The first one (the I) is fantastically bad. I mean, I can't even quantify how bad that one is. But that doesn't mean the H is good. It's just better.

I wouldn't waste your money on either of those. And you REALLY would be wasting your money if you bought either of them.

So here you go, the good news, let's get you some knowledge so you can make a better decision for your budget. Which is a very good one. And you can get a gorgeous stone. Much better than either of those (jewelers lights are very deceptive they can make awful stones look nice to the average uneducated eye, which is what happened to you).

You may just want to run away from any jeweler that has the balls to charge 7k for that I. That is so far over what that stone is worth that it boggles the mind. So... the jeweler is clearly trying to unload (at a huge mark up) some of his worst stones on you.

Next post is one you need to study carefully. For now, just put your wallet away. You are not licensed to buy at this time. ;))
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.8 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants, have your vendor check the diamond for this. VS1 will always be eyeclean, but they do cost more and an eyeclean SI1 and a VS1 will look the same to the unaided eye.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Just to illustrate how BADLY you are being overcharged by the crook jeweler you are currently working with:

This is what your budget buys you:
http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8033666-1.00-carat-Round-diamond-E-color-VS2-Clarity.aspx?sku=8033666&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

E color.
Vs2 and eyeclean as you can clearly see from the magnified image.
Bank Wire Price: $7,122.23
GIA 3x with an HCA score under 2.
Stone faces up properly (you HAVE to pay attention to dimensions not just carat weight) at 6.4mm
From a vendor that will be happy to get you an idealscope image before the ship the stone to you.


So, to summarized. RUN away from this jeweler.

Let us help you. Either to find a reputable jeweler local to you, or to find the right stone online.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
If it matters to you, there are some items to understand about the cut-quality, as follows:

* The 1.01 I VS1 is cut extremely deep, to the point that it only spreads like a well-cut 0.88ct round. That means, in the best lighting conditions - like a jewelry showroom - it will look smaller than other 1.00ct diamonds it's compared to. By the proportional numbers it's a candidate for AGS 5 in performance, meaning that in low lighting it will go dark and look even smaller than well-cut diamonds of 0.88ct.

* The 1.01 H SI1 is also cut deep, so it spreads like a well-cut 0.95ct round. That's not as dramatic as the first option, but you should insist that it be priced as a 0.9X carat diamond rather than a 1.00ct+ in fairness to your pocketbook. The angles makes it a candidate for AGS 4 in performance, meaning that it will not sustain light return in low lighting as well as other well-cut diamonds of 0.95ct.

"Look great in person" understood. However, I'd recommend you compare them to reliable performers - either top AGS 0 or a brand like Hearts On Fire (etc.) through a number of lighting conditions. All diamonds look spectacular under jewelers' spotlights. The true value of the cut quality is revealed in normal and soft lighting, if that is important to you.

Edited to add: I wrote my post as Gypsy wrote hers. Please see what she wrote.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Thank you John.

OP: John has given you the details on WHY those stones are so terrible, that I didn't. So please, listen to both of us. ;))

Your FI will be very happy you did.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
31,596
#1 is deeper than the Grand Canyon!!.. :-o
 

naz20xl

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
5

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yes. Miles better. And WF also has nice settings. So you can do one stop shopping. How are you planning on setting it?


You can go for something like this in a GIA Ex/Ex stone too. Just so you know your options:

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-7996550-1.01-carat-Round-diamond-D-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=7996550&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com :love:

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8137842-1.03-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-VS2-Clarity.aspx?sku=8137842&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com


That said, you would probably want to have it set somewhere else, as B2C's settings aren't nearly as nice as some other vendor's.
 

istase2000

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
328
Gypsy|1460874041|4020327 said:
Yes. Miles better. And WF also has nice settings. So you can do one stop shopping. How are you planning on setting it?


You can go for something like this in a GIA Ex/Ex stone too. Just so you know your options:

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-7996550-1.01-carat-Round-diamond-D-color-SI1-Clarity.aspx?sku=7996550&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com :love:

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8137842-1.03-carat-Round-diamond-H-color-VS2-Clarity.aspx?sku=8137842&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com


That said, you would probably want to have it set somewhere else, as B2C's settings aren't nearly as nice as some other vendor's.
WOW, a D color for that price! With B2C, you can ask them for additional images/idealscope but they won't always have it. Doesn't hurt to ask!

Although it will require a bit more legwork, I know some vendors are happy to set your own stone. Wink from HPD is setting my stone in a Vatche setting.
 

naz20xl

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
5
Thanks guys, and thank you Snowdrop for the catch on the Eye Clean guarantee. I do like that being given to a diamond before having seen it in person. I think WF may be where I end up picking up the diamond.

As for the setting, I did find a great deal on a Tacori ring and wedding band through the same vendor that showed me the original diamonds. If I buy both rings together they would give me 20% off the total as they are having a sale currently. I know there I am getting the best deal as even WF has the ring for more. The vendor said they could also take care of the setting if I decided to provide my own diamond, which looks like will be the case.

Any qualms about going with the following?

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3617115.htm

It's just barely out of my budget range, but I think it can work (or should I spend a little more on the one Snowdrop linked to (http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3619322.htm)?
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Oh I like that I.

Is the Tacori a halo? If it is a halo, then I'd prefer the H. If it's not a halo, the I should be fine.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yes. In general higher end designers like Tacori use F/G melee. So I'd stick to H if you can afford it.

That is a REALLY expensive setting though. WOW. Did she pick that one out? I do hope if you are spending 5k or more on a setting (heck even 3k) its one you've confirmed she wants.
 

naz20xl

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
5
Oh ok, I'll try to stick to the higher color then. And yes, we've actually checked many different styles together, and this particular one caught her eye. Definitely more expensive than most settings we were looking at, but I feel it's worth it for her and luckily I am getting a slight discount. Thanks again Gypsy for your guidance, I really am grateful!
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
2,369
And get a price quote from another vendor who tried to rob you on the original diamonds. Tacori is sold many places.
 

PintoBean

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
6,383
If you are going with a WF Diamond, I would strongly suggest getting the Setting and wedding band through WF as well. WF has the Tacori full bloom setting on their site. Make it a one stop shop!
 
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