Performance pay...Do you agree with it?

[ksinger]

Date: 11/6/2009 7:41:06 PM
Author: ZoeBartlett
Ksinger -- what a great post! I totally agree!

I really like the area where we moved to but if we had kids, I wouldn''t send them to this school district. I''m not sure if they''re all similar, but in general, the schools I''ve seen in the south have a way different view of education than the schools I''ve taught at in the north. I don''t mean to overgeneralize, but that''s been my experience. To me, taking away ''extra'' pay for a master''s degree sends a clear message that those districts don''t value education. If they don''t recognize the education that their teachers have, that''s something I can''t understand.

You''re not imagining it. The South (at least some of it) does have a strange antipathy towards learning, a kind of attitude of "Don''t git above yer raisin''", that learning will make you uppity. Obviously this isn''t universal, (or I wouldn''t be typing this) but it is a powerful attitude around here. And of course there is quite a bit more poverty in the south, and poverty and lower educational level go hand in hand.

My husband doesn''t have a masters, but that is due to several reasons - one, he started teaching later than most, and simply couldn''t justify the cost of the masters at the time. And now that he''s pushing 48, he REALLY isn''t interested, especially since as you say, the extra earning power you gain from a masters, in our state at least, will NOT recoup the cost before you''re dead.

What my husband has, is a bachelor''s in his subject, a teacher for a father - who taught the SAME subject, and a vast and undying passion for his subject, a passion that he has had since childhood.

So what that means is, although late, I finally got a really GOOD history teacher.

God knows the one I had in highschool, being a coach first and a teacher only because they jerked his arm up behind his back, (using a wrestling move HE taught them no doubt) and forced him through the classroom door, was a complete moron. The guy could barely tie his shoes, but hey! He was a winning coach.

 

[Tuckins1]

Date: 11/6/2009 10:56:19 AM
Author:ZoeBartlett
This subject has had me stewing all morning, and I''m curious as to how others feel. I recently left my teaching position for a variety of reasons, one of which was that I strongly believe in certain things that the principal I worked for did not. One of the issues that she does believe in, however, is performance pay for teachers. The district superintendent also believes in this, and it looks like the district is headed that way. I think it''s completely ridiculous to pay teachers based on how well their students do on standardized test scores and how well their observations go.


What do you think about performance pay? It doesn''t have to be based on the teaching profession, by the way. In general, what are your thoughts?

As a teacher, I completely DISAGREE with this concept if it is based solely on standardized test scores. I have seen first hand how very good teachers can have not so good results on the standardized state tests because of a lot of different factors. One is the SES and behavior issues that one runs into in an urban area... Urban schools are notorious for having lower scores, and a lot of that is based on home life issues- not the teacher!!

 

[swimmer]

"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn’t be in business very long!" I stood before an audience filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of in-service training. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the 1980’s when People magazine chose its blueberry flavor as the "Best Ice Cream in America."

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the Industrial Age and out of step with the needs of our emerging "knowledge society." Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! Total quality management! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced; equal parts ignorance and arrogance. As soon as I finished, a woman’s hand shot up. She began quietly. "We are told sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream." I smugly replied, "Best ice cream in America, ma’am." "How nice," she said. "Is it rich and smooth?" "Sixteen percent butterfat," I crowed. "Premium ingredients?" she inquired. "Super premium! Nothing but triple-A." I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

"Mr. Vollmer," she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, "when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?" In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap. I knew I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie. "I send them back."

"That’s right!" she barked, "and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with attention deficit disorder, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business, it’s a school!" In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aids, custodians, and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, "Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!"

And so began my long transformation. Since then, I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, completing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night" (Cuban, 2004, 42).

All teachers around long enough have seen this email forwarded around, but it is just so freaking spot on. Aside from that, the angels among us, the Special Educators who work with the kids who can't speak for themselves, who will never hold the pencil long enough to fill in those blasted ovals, that their students' test scores should be compared unfavorably is insanity. I know a scientist turned educator who is a dreadful teacher, totally unable to communicate with teenagers, but he only teaches AP students who would ace the tests even if locked into a closet with the lights out (not that I would do that to children...). Under the only existing performance pay systems out there. The scientist would take home a fat check and the special educator who works with those students who are developing the life skills to hopefully one day be able to hold a job, would get nothing. While it is true that life is not fair. I wonder if the "business model" that has destroyed our economy and left our nations' infrastructure to rot is the best model to follow when teaching our children.

ETA: what I want to see is performance pay parenting. I could be a better educator if I didn't have to spend so much time raising my students and doing the job that their middle class parents refuse to do. Get your kid away from the TV and the sugary snacks and spend time with him or her. Teachers can not and should not replace parenting.

 

[Tuckins1]

Date: 11/7/2009 9:33:45 AM
Author: swimmer
''If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn’t be in business very long!'' I stood before an audience filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of in-service training. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.


I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the 1980’s when People magazine chose its blueberry flavor as the ''Best Ice Cream in America.''


I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the Industrial Age and out of step with the needs of our emerging ''knowledge society.'' Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! Total quality management! Continuous improvement!


In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced; equal parts ignorance and arrogance. As soon as I finished, a woman’s hand shot up. She began quietly. ''We are told sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.'' I smugly replied, ''Best ice cream in America, ma’am.'' ''How nice,'' she said. ''Is it rich and smooth?'' ''Sixteen percent butterfat,'' I crowed. ''Premium ingredients?'' she inquired. ''Super premium! Nothing but triple-A.'' I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.


''Mr. Vollmer,'' she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, ''when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?'' In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap. I knew I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie. ''I send them back.''


''That’s right!'' she barked, ''and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with attention deficit disorder, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business, it’s a school!'' In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aids, custodians, and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, ''Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!''


And so began my long transformation. Since then, I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, completing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night'' (Cuban, 2004, 42).


All teachers around long enough have seen this email forwarded around, but it is just so freaking spot on. Aside from that, the angels among us, the Special Educators who work with the kids who can''t speak for themselves, who will never hold the pencil long enough to fill in those blasted ovals, that their students'' test scores should be compared unfavorably is insanity. I know a scientist turned educator who is a dreadful teacher, totally unable to communicate with teenagers, but he only teaches AP students who would ace the tests even if locked into a closet with the lights out (not that I would do that to children...). Under the only existing performance pay systems out there. The scientist would take home a fat check and the special educator who works with those students who are developing the life skills to hopefully one day be able to hold a job, would get nothing. While it is true that life is not fair. I wonder if the ''business model'' that has destroyed our economy and left our nations'' infrastructure to rot is the best model to follow when teaching our children.


ETA: what I want to see is performance pay parenting. I could be a better educator if I didn''t have to spend so much time raising my students and doing the job that their middle class parents refuse to do. Get your kid away from the TV and the sugary snacks and spend time with him or her. Teachers can not and should not replace parenting.

Bravo!!!! Well said!!

 

[Maria D]

luckystar, if you can figure out a way to contact me off-board I would be happy to fill you in on how I became a public school teacher in Maine. I didn''t do it it the usual way. It''s my 3rd "career" (I use that term loosely because it feels more like a calling when I consider how little I''m paid for how much I work!) and I''m working on certification as I teach.

Swimmer, that was great -- hadn''t seen that one before. Great parenting would be a huge step in the right direction. I''m amazed at how desperate for attention some of my sweet little blueberries are. And that would be ANY kind of attention; I don''t realize myself how sweet some of htese kids are until I''ve had them in for detention a few times and realize they act up so they can spend more time around an adult who cares.

Lost in our conversation, I feel, is the fact that there are some pretty bad teachers and they are difficult to get rid of. Administration takes the path of least resistance and gives them the classes of students that are lowest profile, with parents least likely to fuss. So the kids who would benefit the most from great teaching may be least likely to get it. It drives me batty that there are teachers in my building who are terrible teachers -- their colleagues know it, admin knows it, the kids know it -- but because it''s too much work to actually get rid of the teacher nothing is done. What makes it so hard? The union. Sure, there are mechanisms for "performance plans" where an admin will come in and observe and write objectives that a failing teacher has to meet. So what -- anyone can come up with a tight lesson plan for an observation. It''s the day in, day out, before and after school help that actually affects student learning. The only ones that really know what''s going on in that classroom are the kids.

I''m serious when I say that student evals should be considered part of a performance evaluation. Other things that can be measured are quality and quantity of assignments. Shouldn''t a teacher that guides student through a worthwhile project be considered a higher performer than one that hands out worksheet after worksheet? Timely and quality feedback on assignments is also important. There''s plenty more to measure than standardized test scores.

 

[swimmer]

Glad to share that with you Maria and Tukins!

Performance pay does get a great deal of press time while other more salient issues just sort of sneak on by, like the millions spent on test creation and test prep. If anyone reading this is looking to make some cash, start an assessment development business. To do it right costs millions, so instead states are spending hundreds of thousands a year to get poorly generated and not at all standardized/norm-referenced assessments of nothing in particular. Some tests just assess how middle class your childhood was, others have nothing to do with the standards/benchmarks that the teachers have been forced to follow, all are written in academic language far beyond our students'' capacities. The real trick is that the passing rate is set after the kids take the test, when the test generators have all the answers. So the goal of "every child passing" is literally impossible as the bar is set in different places by different states. Arizona had 98% of their kids pass the science test one year. But they still ranked in the bottom quartile of states on the NEAP. So either their test was crap or the testing company botched the results, or both. In question content, real bias can be found across the board. So no, I don''t think that the states are going to come up with a decent way of assessing teachers when all they can do for students is put up more roadblocks for success and waste a good chunk of instructional time doing so.

Yes, it is Monday morning. Just another uphill battle to fight today.

 

[zoebartlett]

The district that I just left has its own TV station with their own shows that tout its employees and programs. I watched the superintendent''s state of the schools address last night, and I realized again how HAPPY I am that I''m no longer part of the district. There''s so much competition between counties, apparently, to have their students score highest on test scores. The superintendent talked a lot abut performance pay, which they will begin within 5 years. His reasoning was that research shows that just because a teacher has a master''s degree, it doesn''t mean that that teacher is a better one that one without it. I do agree with this to a point -- sure, I know teachers who "only" have a bachelor''s degree, and they are excellent. I know teachers who have master''s degrees, and frankly, they should have left their jobs long ago. Instead of looking at teachers'' credentials and years of experience, the superintendent thinks that paying teachers based on how their students do is the right way to handle things. I firmly believe that this is wrong. It doesn''t value education. So many factors can play a part in why a student does or does not do well on tests. Those same students can still be great students though.

This has been a very interesting discussion to read, and I''m gad so many people have given their thoughts.