Paper recycling, save the world

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It is very common for diamond owners to submit a diamond to 2 or even 3 labs and sell the stone with the grading report that brings the highest price for that stone.

What happens to all the old diamond grading reports?
They go in the waste-bin, of course, don’t they?

Well what if a dealer wanted to save a little time and money by recycling the paper (reducing their carbon foot print etc). Simply find another diamond of the same weight and grade, with a similar inclusion pattern - save $100-$200 and 6 weeks.

Sort of ‘added value’.

For consumers it really is a good idea to use a reputable vendor and / or an expert appraiser to confirm the diamond IS the diamond, or should that be - THE diamond!
I would like to find ways to make it possible for everyone to confirm that the diamond on the grading report is indeed the same stone. One way of course is to trust the source of the diamond. I have suppliers and manufacturers who consider their grading as their word and honour. But there are others in our industry.........
I can not personally say that I have ‘seen’ examples of ‘cert recycling’, but in tough times like what the industry in the west is facing now, and with the rumours I hear, it seems like a real risk.

 

[strmrdr]

Evil people in the diamond trade??
No never the whole trade is based on ones word that cant be right.
You have totally shattered my illusions.
I''m going too go sulk while the server is updated.

 

[door knob solitaire]

Gary I have left a trail of posts hinting to the strange fact that another posters diamond and my tossed stone share the exact measurements.

I realize your post was a stab at attempting to save the planet, but from your experience is this a common occurrence? One that would add merit to your paper saving suggestion?

Inquiring minds usually ask the most stupid questions.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/24/2008 12:25:09 AM
Author: door knob solitaire
Gary I have left a trail of posts hinting to the strange fact that another posters diamond and my tossed stone share the exact measurements.

I realize your post was a stab at attempting to save the planet, but from your experience is this a common occurrence? One that would add merit to your paper saving suggestion?

Inquiring minds usually ask the most stupid questions.

DKS I have no evidence of this other than what you just wrote.
But if the stone was resold in the cheating model I am considering, then it should be sold with a different cert and therefore you would never pick it up as the same stone because every lab will get a different set of measurments, proportions and gradings. Remeber of the 16 stones we sent to 3 labs in 2004? You would have a very hard time identifying the same stone - impossible.
Check it out
http://grading.pricescope.com/appendix-iii.aspx

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Doesn''t the inscription attempt to ward against all of this?

However, I read somewhere that inscriptions can be scratched off?

Can someone easily change the #''s on the cert. to match the stone?

Perhaps I am naive. Maybe not all stones are registered like this.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/24/2008 12:12:53 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1
Doesn''t the inscription attempt to ward against all of this?

However, I read somewhere that inscriptions can be scratched off?

Can someone easily change the #''s on the cert. to match the stone?

Perhaps I am naive. Maybe not all stones are registered like this.

In this case anyone can apply their own laser inscription to match the first inscription number.

 

[Cleo]

So Garry, what you''re saying is that you haven''t seen evidence to suggest that this does happen, only that the circumstances exist which allow it to potentially happen.

Even so, this is pretty scary.

I kind of like the way we did it when we bought my diamond... The stone was sent by the vendor for laser inscription of the cert number on the girdle. However, it was then sent back to AGS afterwards to get the certificate amended, showing that it now had an inscribed girdle.

As the diamond had been seen again by AGS I was 99.9999% sure I got the diamond we paid for.

I can''t see how even the dodgiest vendor could get round that one!

x x x

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 2/24/2008 3:32:46 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/24/2008 12:12:53 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1
Doesn''t the inscription attempt to ward against all of this?

However, I read somewhere that inscriptions can be scratched off?

Can someone easily change the #''s on the cert. to match the stone?

Perhaps I am naive. Maybe not all stones are registered like this.

In this case anyone can apply their own laser inscription to match the first inscription number.

OK this opens up a whole topic regarding laser/inscriptions on diamonds.

Mine is on the star facet - so somone can "erase" it and "replace" it with another #?

How can you do that? Is it even worth going to such lengths?

 

[strmrdr]

The inscription helps the honest stay honest and foils the lazy and unskilled.
Doesn''t help with the dishonest, motivated and skilled.
I would hope that there are enough cutters out there that will bulk at erasing an inscription too keep it at a min.
But I bet there is someplace out there that will do it in bulk for whoever asks.
That is a major problem I have with drop shipping, it creates a breading ground for dishonestly with no protection.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/24/2008 9:59:19 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1


OK this opens up a whole topic regarding laser/inscriptions on diamonds.

Mine is on the star facet - so somone can ''erase'' it and ''replace'' it with another #?

How can you do that? Is it even worth going to such lengths?

being on the star facet makes it harder and takes more skill too remove and replace without getting caught.
The girdle is much easier too hide its removal and takes less skill too remove.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Storm has answered the laser inscription questions.

Date: 2/24/2008 6:49:59 PM
Author: Cleo
So Garry, what you''re saying is that you haven''t seen evidence to suggest that this does happen, only that the circumstances exist which allow it to potentially happen.

DKS mentioned this just before I went overseas on a buying trip. On that trip I heard some gossip that backed up her fear.

The diamond business is going thru tough times now - and the inconsistant results and delays on grading may make this a survival issue for some.

Even so, this is pretty scary.

I kind of like the way we did it when we bought my diamond... The stone was sent by the vendor for laser inscription of the cert number on the girdle. However, it was then sent back to AGS afterwards to get the certificate amended, showing that it now had an inscribed girdle.

As the diamond had been seen again by AGS I was 99.9999% sure I got the diamond we paid for.

I can''t see how even the dodgiest vendor could get round that one!

x x x

 

[CaptAubrey]

Various forms of "cert fraud" have existed in this business for as long as grading reports have been used.

At one end you have vendors using "captive labs" with extremely soft grading "standards" The trade compensates for soft grading by adjusting the price, but consumers often don't know any bettter.

At the other end, you have counterfeit reports like the Israeli operation that was using fake GIA reports to sell fracture-filled diamonds a few years ago.

In between are all sorts of other shenanigans. GIA reported a month or two back about an HPHT-treated diamond that was apparently recut to resemble an untreated D-IF stone, then resubmitted with the other stone's report for an "update." GIA caught it, but someone else faced with such a diamond might not. Whoever was responsible went to the trouble of inscribing the other diamond's GIA report number on the girdle.

How common is all this? Not much, simply because it's difficult to survive long in this business being dishonest--sooner or later, everyone will have stopped doing business with you. But it does happen.

I have no personal knowledge of someone having recycled a cert the way Garry describes, but I would be shocked if it had never happened somewhere.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/25/2008 3:47:47 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
Various forms of ''cert fraud'' have existed in this business for as long as grading reports have been used.

At one end you have vendors using ''captive labs'' with extremely soft grading ''standards'' The trade compensates for soft grading by adjusting the price, but consumers often don''t know any bettter.

At the other end, you have counterfeit reports like the Israeli operation that was using fake GIA reports to sell fracture-filled diamonds a few years ago.

In between are all sorts of other shenanigans. GIA reported a month or two back about an HPHT-treated diamond that was apparently recut to resemble an untreated D-IF stone, then resubmitted with the other stone''s report for an ''update.'' GIA caught it, but someone else faced with such a diamond might not. Whoever was responsible went to the trouble of inscribing the other diamond''s GIA report number on the girdle.

How common is all this? Not much, simply because it''s difficult to survive long in this business being dishonest--sooner or later, everyone will have stopped doing business with you. But it does happen.

I have no personal knowledge of someone having recycled a cert the way Garry describes, but I would be shocked if it had never happened somewhere.

I am in complete agreement with all your comments Capt.
But the rumours are that this is now happening.

And as Storm says, the drop shippers are the perfect method of distribution, so that is why I think it is important for anyone buying with the lowest cost (not value, cost) method, they should consider using an appraiser or at least having the vendor eyeball the stone for them.

I hear regular reports that increasingly large numbers of diamonds are traded as paper. Firms I have dealt with for years tell me they are amazed to be haggling by phone, not in person, for dozens of GIA certed stones without ever seeing them. The total bottom line is the only discussion point. The stones somtimes are then shipped direct to a jewellery manufacturer and no diamond person ever examines them.

I also hear of manufacturers recieving large orders for 2,000 1/2ct within tight colour clarity ranges coming from big name brands with typically 2 weeks to fulfil delivery. Supply the lot, or none at all!

All these relatively recent modes of business seem to make paper recycling a very real and attractive option for companies that could otherwise be totally honest. Imagine you have 1,990 of the stones ready to go, your boss is screaming at you, your bonus is going to be slashed and your job risky too. You have these 10 stones that EGL just gave you 2 grades better results for and the GIA paper is being thrown in the bin................... you ring your wife and say cancel our daughters wedding because I am a straight honest guy?

The problem is not neccisarily one of company policy you see?

 

[diagem]

What about GIA''s certifiGate???
Anyone care to add?

I hear "loud and clear voices" trying to put the limelight back on!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/26/2008 3:34:50 AM
Author: DiaGem
What about GIA''s certifiGate???
Anyone care to add?

I hear ''loud and clear voices'' trying to put the limelight back on!

DG it is a completely seperate topic. Any paper can be recycled. A diamond with a GIA cert and IGI and EGL can be offered for sale at different prices and in different markets (IGI under 1ct for example is worth more in many markets ouside USa because it has a reputation for consistancy).

The point is though that the paper that is recycled may only or always be GIA.

Re CertifiGate, we hope the matter can be settled by the law a clearly the trade is non-transperent

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/26/2008 9:55:46 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/26/2008 3:34:50 AM
Author: DiaGem
What about GIA''s certifiGate???
Anyone care to add?

I hear ''loud and clear voices'' trying to put the limelight back on!

DG it is a completely seperate topic. Any paper can be recycled. A diamond with a GIA cert and IGI and EGL can be offered for sale at different prices and in different markets (IGI under 1ct for example is worth more in many markets ouside USa because it has a reputation for consistancy).

The point is though that the paper that is recycled may only or always be GIA.

Re CertifiGate, we hope the matter can be settled by the law a clearly the trade is non-transperent

I know..., just trying to contribute my small part as to keeping this topic a-float...

And this thread has the calling for it...

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Diagem I completely agree....

DG or Certifigate had an impact directly on consumers like me and relates to "paper recycling."

Tiffany is pretty hush hush about the whole thing. But as you all know will not use GIA anymore.

I wish that would change as I would appreciate a third party''s review of my stone but there is small comfort knowing that my stone is not part of possible "paper recycling."

However, T & Co. can say just about anything they want on the cert.

I guess there''s no way around independent appraisals afterall.