opinions

Kessar · Jan 23, 2003

Hi,
I was wondering if I could get people's opinion on this stone.

GIA D VS1
1.36
7.12*7.17*4.37
61.2% Depth
56% Table
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick Faceted
Culet None
Excellent Symmetry
Very Good Polish
No Flourescence

The price is $12,000.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you and take care,

Kessar

PS - I'm going to try and get crown/pavilian angles and post the results if they can provide them.

Lugus · Jan 23, 2003

You want opinions, you got em. I'm just finally understanding this whole diamond thing but you said "opinion". So here goes.

Looks like a remarkable stone. You picked one similar to what I'm considering (except size), so I'll say if it was me, I would be bothered with the polish rating of very good. I probably would shop around a bit more to find one that was excellent.

Also, the med to sl thick girdle seems a bit too much. You're carrying around extra weight that could be going to making the stone larger.

The geek in me says "right on!" to the D color, but try as I might I have a really tough time telling the difference between D and E. You'll pay a premium for the stone being D, but, of course, D is perfect color

All this being said, I'm not buying the stone, you are. And I don't see any real deal breakers in the stone you have chosen without having crown and pavillion angles.

-Lugus, diamond advice guy in training

geo10000 · Jan 23, 2003

Hello Kessar, welcome to the forum. The stone you listed is indeed a nice one. As an appraiser I would appraise the stone somewhere between $15,000 to $17,500 as an approximate retail replacement value in the Atlanta area. The cut is nice (most important), color is the best and clarity is very acceptable. Have the stone looked at by an independant appraiser to verify the GIA Diamond Grading Report with the diamond...make sure it is done in front of you. Best of luck to you.

George

Kessar · Jan 23, 2003

Thanks for the replies so far Lugus and geo.

I got in contact with the company and asked about crown and pavilian angles and they sent a copy of the diamond's sarin report.

1.360
61.4% Depth (vs. 61.2% on the GIA cert)
57% Table (vs 56% on the GIA cert)
Girdle 2.4% (Slightly Thick) (vs. Medium to Slightly Thick Faceted on the GIA cert)
Culet 0.1%
Crown Angle 35.3
Crown Height 15.4%
Pavilian Angle 40.7
Pavilian Depth 42.6%

When I enter the angles into the HCA, I get 1.3 with Excellent Light Return, Fire and Scintillation and Very Good for Spread.
When I put in th ecrown/pavilian percentages, I get 0.4 with same other factors. I've read that the angles are what is the accurate number to go by, so I assume that's the most accurate. Is that assumption correct? 1.3 is the more accurate number?

Also, will the very good, rather than excellent polish be a big detriment to the diamond's brilliance? What about the slightly thick girdle (or medium to slightly thick on the GIA cert)?

How do these factors affect people's view of this stone. Is it a good deal at $12,000? I am not expecting ro pay too little, but I'd like not to overpay either. Basically, is this a fair price and if so, is it on the high or low end of a fair price or right smack dab in the middle?

Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and take care,

Kessar

Kessar · Jan 24, 2003

PS - Sorry for the newbie questions. I've been looking for stones for a while, but primarily in Diamond Row here in NYC. There, the concept of cut seems to be nonexistent and noone seems to know about crown/pavilian angles. The predominant advice in buying a diamond is buy the one that looks nicest to me. Perfect advice from their persepctive for someone with untrained eyes like myself.

Thanks again.

jetcaptain · Jan 24, 2003

I quickly checked the price stats here on pricescope, and $12k seems a bit high. Also, since you mentioned that "any" advice is appreciated, you'll pay quite a premium for that D color. If that's what you really want, then great, but you could either save money or get a bigger diamond for the same money if you would drop a level or two in color, while still remaining in the colorless range.

Kessar · Jan 24, 2003

Thanks for the advice jetcaptain. I really appreciate it.

This is the credit card price. Does that make a significant difference? Would you say that the price is a little bit high or a lot high?

Also, I was thinking the same thing with regards to color, that I was overdoing it with a D, but whenever I've looked at E stones, I haven't really noticed a significant price drop. Its usually what seems to me pretty small. For example, I saw what seems like a comparable stone (E VS1) that was slightly smaller (1.29) was only roughly $700 cheaper. Though, for this stone, I haven't checked out crown/pavilian angles yet. Even in the price stats here on pricescope, the average price drop from a 1A cut stone from DVS1 to EVS1 works out to be roughly $340 per carat.

Any other views or comments? What about the polish, the girdle and the varying HCA?

Thanks again and take care,

Kessar

Giangi · Jan 24, 2003

The stone looks very nice. Very good polish is OK... You can see differences between very good and excellent only under high magnification. The thickness listed on the GIA report is min/max; while Sarin lists average.

Giangi

barry · Jan 24, 2003

Kessar;

On paper, this diamond looks good.

A few comments:

1.The difference between D and E color is imperceptible,
even to trained diamond eyes. If you can save money
with a comparable E color, you can put that savings
into a better setting.

2. VG Polish: Not a detriment, whatsoever. Only noticeable under very high magnification ( at least 20X )and
absolutely a non-factor in the visual appearence
of the diamond under normal eye-viewing conditions.
Only possible drawback is your psychological
well-being knowing it has "Only VG Polish" and not "EX".

3. Girdle thickness: Med to Sl. Thick from a
measurement standpoint is only fractionally and
insignificantly wider compared to a "thin to sl.thick
girdle and has absolutely no deleterious effect on
the diamonds' light output.

4. Please be advised that not all ideal cuts are
equivalent in their precision of cut or light output.
Putting down this kind of money you should be
asking for and getting more information.
A: a detailed Sarin or MegaScope report showing
the cut angles of the individual facets, and
B: A BrillianScope and FireScope Report showing
you the degree of light output and light leakage.

Of course, the optimal situation is to try and
arrange for a personal viewing and see if the diamond appeals to you.

Best of luck in your search.

Barry
www.superbcert.com

fire&ice · Jan 24, 2003

Sage advice Barry!

You asked for "opinions". I will give you mine. I believe many people overbuy a diamond when in fact a G SI stone w/ ideal/very good cut *is* a very nice stone w/ quite a bit of savings in price. Once set, few can tell the difference between color. If you are sensitive to color, an F stone is still colorless.

Good luck.

jetcaptain · Jan 24, 2003

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On 1/24/2003 6:45:29 AM Kessar wrote:

Thanks for the advice jetcaptain. I really appreciate it.

This is the credit card price. Does that make a significant difference? Would you say that the price is a little bit high or a lot high?

Also, I was thinking the same thing with regards to color, that I was overdoing it with a D, but whenever I've looked at E stones, I haven't really noticed a significant price drop. Its usually what seems to me pretty small. For example, I saw what seems like a comparable stone (E VS1) that was slightly smaller (1.29) was only roughly $700 cheaper. Though, for this stone, I haven't checked out crown/pavilian angles yet. Even in the price stats here on pricescope, the average price drop from a 1A cut stone from DVS1 to EVS1 works out to be roughly $340 per carat.

Any other views or comments? What about the polish, the girdle and the varying HCA?

Thanks again and take care,

Kessar
----------------

Kessar,

I think that a credit card price is typically about 2% higher than a cash/bank wire price. During my search, I found that sometimes it made a difference whether the credit card was a MasterCard, VISA, or American Express.

When I ran the price stats on pricescope, I looked at the H&A cuts. Using this, the average price for a 1.36ct H&A, D/VS1 is $10,400. Do you consider the $1,600 difference to be a little bit high or a lot high? Now, so you don't misunderstand, I'm an airline pilot, and airline pilots are known for being notoriously--ahhh, shall we say frugal (instead of cheap). In fact, rumor has it that copper wire was invented by two airline captains fighting over a penny.

Anyway, I think that $1,600 is a lot to overspend. Why overspend at all??? To me, the real question is why don't you at least consider moving you aim point to the F/VS2 range. As others have said more eloquently than me, it's not likely that you, or anyone that ever sees your ring (expect the appraiser), will be able to see the difference. The average 1.36ct H&A, F/VS2 is selling for just over $8,500. Now we're talking serious money ($3,500 less than the $12k). Everybody has their own ideas about where the best values are. We can all give you our thoughts, but in the end you're going to have to decide how to spend your money. If you give us an idea of the setting you're planning, and whether or not you would like to increase the diamond size or just spend the least amount on a 1.36ct, we might be able to offer you some additional options to consider, if that's what you would like. Your fellow consumers here do this for fun. We don't always agree, and sometimes it gets lively, but I think that in our own ways, we are all just trying to help.

fire&ice · Jan 24, 2003

We don't always agree, and sometimes it gets lively, but I think that in our own ways, we are all just trying to help.
----------------
[/quote]

Well said. I like to bring up the fact that a G/SI stone w/ good make *is* a nice stone. I think 1st time buyers are under the *assumption* that to purchase a nice stone A. It must be colorless & B. somewhat flawless.

A. In the 1c range, once set, many people can not tell the subtle difference in color. Diamonds are graded face down. What the stone looks like face up is what should count.

B. Diamonds are graded for clarity under a 10x loupe. I have yet to see someone wear a 10x loupe mounted over their stone.

Please keep in mind, I am not advocating buying poor quality stone - just consider that parameters can be adjusted w/ not too much visual difference.

I own the perfect little stone; and, I prefer my big not so perfect stone. Just a perpective I like to throw out there every once in a while.

Once again, use your own eyes to determine whether the cost is best spent on the D/Vs stone.

Kessar · Jan 24, 2003

Hi again,

Thanks for all the responses. This is such a confusing process. I really do appreciate all the help.

Jetcaptain, in regards to setting, I made the following post earlier regarding what I was thinking of, but haven't gotten any responses yet:

setting question

I've thought of going for a lesser color and clarity and am not totally sure. My girlfriend and I had a discussion a while back and she insisted that she does not want anything over 1.5 carats. This was after her and I looked around the diamond district here in new york to get an idea of what we like. Her reasoning was based on her not usually wearing a lot of jewelry and her having pretty small hands (she does have small hands, but average size fingers). Anything larger than 1.5, she said she felt uncomfortable wearing, despite my urgings otherwise. Also, we talked about it and her motivation is not her desire to save money; it genuinely seems to be discomfort with larger stones. So I have been looking in the 1.3-1.4 carat range.

Also, since I don't have to worry about size, I have focused on color (or perhaps overfocused). I think it has to do with the perfectionist in me who wants her to have the very best. With regards to this particular diamond being overpriced, I too looked at the pricescope pricestats. For example, in what you quoted the DVS1 do have an average price of 10,400 for a 1.36 carat diamond, once I looked at the available diamonds, the largest one included in that pool is 1.16 carats. Under DVS2, there is a 1.34 diamond available, but the site does not list that much information. Plus, while I've bought jewelry online before, I'm new and wary of online sites for diamonds. I will probably end up buying online, but certain things such as scanned GIA certs on the site reassure me somewhat. This diamond doesn't have that, instead all the numbers have just been typed in. I have recently requested additional information regarding this stone. Under EVS1, the largest diamond is a 1.3, but like the prior one lacks any certificate and also has medium blue flourescence, which I was hoping to avoid. The next largest is a 1.21, smaller than where I'd rather be. Under EVS2, there are a couple of diamonds in my size range, but they all lack cert information.

So while the price for the current stone I'm currently looking at is high, there do not seem to be a lot of choices in the range of what I am looking at and the average price per carat provided seems to more reflect the average for the lower size (1-1.25) majority of stone. Though this stone is still a bit higher priced than comparable stones, assuming they have comparable cut, which I can't tell until I hear back from them. I am busy at work and it is difficult for me to contact a bunch of different vendors to get extra information, which to me seems like information that should be listed on their site. Outside of work, I spend pretty much all my free time with my girlfriend, and I don't want to ruin any surprise she may get out of this because I don't think she's expecting anything for another six months.

Nonetheless, I am not set on this stone yet, as I have requested info from the dealers regarding about half a dozen others in the D-E/VS1-VS2 range.

Thanks again for all the advice/opinions.

Any ideas regarding my setting question or additional advice with regards to this stone?

Thanks and take care,

Kessar

PS - Sorry about the very long message.

fire&ice · Jan 24, 2003

The reason you may be having difficulty finding stones in the 1.3-1.4 range is that cutters need to hit certain marks - 1, 1.25, 1.5. If you focused on either mark, you will find a larger selection.

I noted that you do not want to go up in size. If you went down in color you could spend the money on something else - perhaps diamond earrings or a jet ski...or in the bank for a future want. JMHO, I would never think of my to be as cheap if he spent less than budgeted - just smart & frugal.

That said, if you do buy a D/E stone, I would consider just a single stone setting. I think it would make the stone "more important". ..like a simple tiffany, stuller soltice, vatche x prong. If you want a ring w/ side stones - the stones are so small that H/SI would surfice - typically, the smaller the stone the less the body color is noticed.

Vatche (www.dvatche.com) makes lovely settings. They make a few w/ side stones. I own the platinum Vatche 3 stone ring w/ a 3 carat center stone & .68 tcw baguette sides. They make quality rings. Verragio is another - but a more elaborate setting. Stuller makes quality settings - stuller soltice is popular.

Good luck. Please remember, at the end of the day, the biggest factor contributing to the beauty of a stone is the cut.

Mara · Jan 24, 2003

Well I came into this post late and you have already received much excellent advice from my forum peers. The stone you have sounds pretty great. In case you are thinking about looking around a little bit as advised by the others to find something not quite D and save some $$, here are a few stones which come with more info than not, still in the colorless range of stones, with a VS or above clarity. Both are cheaper than what you are looking at...though the carat weight is slightly smaller. It sounds like carat weight is not the priority of purchase so maybe try to save a bit of money and get something a little smaller, still top quality, and save a few grand! The WhiteFlash stone looks promising below!

WhiteFlash.Com
1.25 F, VS2 Stone
A Cut Above Branded Hearts & Arrow Stone
HCA Score: 1.4 EX (ex,ex,ex,ex!)
Table: 57%
Depth: 60.6%
Crown A: 34.9
Pav A: 40.9
AGS Cert 000 Ideal
Polish: ID
Symm: ID
Culet: No
Fluor: No
Price: $9234

This stone comes with the Sarin report online, the certificate online, and an enlarged picture of the stone (beautiful!)

http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=427170

GoodOldGold.Com
1.26 F, VVS1 Stone
Hearts & Arrows
Depth: 60.8%
Table: 56%
Polish: EX
Symm: EX
Fluor: No
Culet: No
GIA Cert
Price: $11,400

Pull the Crown and Angle Pav's off the Sarin report. This page also has Sarin information, closeups of the stones and inclusions, IdealScope images, and a BrillianceScope report.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_26ct_f_vvs1_h&a.htm

Anyway whatever you choose you will love I am sure. The orignial stone you posted sounds very nice, maybe a little pricey but nothing WAY overpriced--esp for the D color. I would not worry about the med-sl.thick girdle, you really only should worry about girdles if they are extremely thick and the range is more along the lines of 'extremely thin to extremely thick' or 'slightly thin to extremely thick'. Med-Sl. Thick is pretty typical.

Also as Barry notes, with the VG to an EX rating on polish or symm, thats not something you can even detect with your naked eye so don't get hung up on it. The other comments about not needing a D I agree on but it's really your perogative with what your priorities are. My coworker has tiny hands and didn't want anything above 1c so they got her a .80c E, IF stone with a great cut and spent the extra money on the IF. It was important to her. She loves to say her stone is internally flawless! So it really just depends on your priority for the 4c's.

Good luck!

Kessar · Jan 24, 2003

Thanks for the new replies.

Mara, thanks for the other options. The white flash one is tempting and I may look into it. Not crazy about the GOG, though because it seems to be trading away color and size for clarity without a very significant price difference. But GOG is in New York like me, so I believe I'd end up paying tax there, which will make it more expensive than the current one I'm looking at.

Fire and Ice, thanks for the setting advice. While I like both channel setting and solitares, my girlfriend liked channel settings when we went out and took a look at rings several months back, so I think I'll focus on channels. The side stones would be pretty small, though, would H color stones look strange in a platinum setting with a D or E center stone?

Thanks again for all the advice. I look forward to hearing any more ideas/sugestions people have.

Thanks and take care,

Kessar

barry · Jan 25, 2003

Thanks for the compliment, fire&ice!

Barry
www.superbcert.com

aljdewey · Jan 26, 2003

Hi, Mara:

I noted your comment about the stone available at whiteflash, and I confess I'm a bit confused. One of the things that discourages me from going to Whiteflash's site is the inability to see a pic of the actual diamond. (Recently, they've started at least adding ideal scope images, which has helped somewhat.)

You comment below that there is an enlarged pic of the stone, but the image I see says that it is a temporary SAMPLE of an H&A stone....I interpret this to mean that it is an example of what you can expect the stone to be like, but it is not THE stone.

Maybe I am missing something....where are you seeing pics of the actual stone? Thanks!

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This stone (from whiteflash) comes with the Sarin report online, the certificate online, and an enlarged picture of the stone (beautiful!)

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Mara · Jan 28, 2003

AJ..sorry I took so long to respond, I forgot until I was surfing the WhiteFlash site and realized I'd never answered your Q.

Anyway..yes on that particular stone you are correct, I was mistaken..I thought that it was the actual stone (don't know how I missed the big TEMP SAMPLE text..but anyway).

However WF does have enlarged images of some of their stones up with H&A and IdealScope images. Check out this one I found today while looking for I/SI stones. It has the enlarged image, the H&A and IS images. Not bad..good job WhiteFlash...updating your inventory I see!

http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=2388