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Opinions on this Sapphire please?

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
Hello all - my wife has fallen in love with a ring, that happens to have a 3ct Kashmir sapphire (no heat or enhancements) as the center stone. It has a recent AGL certificate. I understand that Cabochons are not as desirable as 'cut' stones but she is a fan of the look and given the cost involved, I'd like to get opinions as to how 'good' this stone is from a color perspective relative to other Kashmir stones, and any guidance on what an appropriate cost per carat for the stone would be to offer.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts

IMG_1413.JPG IMG_1416.JPG IMG_1419.JPG IMG_1421.JPG
 
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Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2014
Messages
3,981
My goodness that ring is to die for, no wonder your wife fell for it.
its hard to judge the sapphire from the photos but yes, you will be paying a hefty premium for a certified Kashmir sapphire.
is it worth it? Probably.
Top quality Kashmir sapphires aren’t found anymore, while sapphires from other sources can rival (some would say surpass) Kashmir sapphires, a Kashmir sapphire is a Kashmir sapphire.
what Is the ring worth? the diamonds in the ring are sizable and appear great quality (are there any lab certs for the diamonds?)
Are they 1/2 carat each?
I’ll take a stab in the dark $30,000?
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
My goodness that ring is to die for, no wonder your wife fell for it.
its hard to judge the sapphire from the photos but yes, you will be paying a hefty premium for a certified Kashmir sapphire.
is it worth it? Probably.
Top quality Kashmir sapphires aren’t found anymore, while sapphires from other sources can rival (some would say surpass) Kashmir sapphires, a Kashmir sapphire is a Kashmir sapphire.
what Is the ring worth? the diamonds in the ring are sizable and appear great quality (are there any lab certs for the diamonds?)
Are they 1/2 carat each?
I’ll take a stab in the dark $30,000?
Thanks for the response! The ring is beautiful and the diamonds really are stunning, yes about 1/4 carat each, F/G and VS2 - ish, no certs.

We haven't discussed hard numbers yet and I want to make them an offer but I am guessing the expectation will be quite a bit more than that - I've very little experience buying sapphires and I've heard that top flight Kashmir Sapphires can go for six figures per carat so I'm trying to understand what grade of stone this is to figure out where to pitch my offer...!
 

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 17, 2008
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6,826
GORGEOUS!!!

Does the center stone have a gem brief or full origin report?

I ask because you might have negotiating room there depending on what it is. A full origin report will go into detail and give you some information as to where it might have came from.

A brief is good enough in most cases, but depends on what other factors are going into the sale of said stone (ring).
 

Rfisher

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
1,998
I’ve fallen in love with it now, too!
But you are making an offer in the dark or an offer knowing their asking price?
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
Thanks guys. I believe its a full origin report, AGL, as it states origin as Kashmir and confirms the stone has no heat or enhancements.

Its out of a personal collection (trusted person), the seller has alluded to ~$25k per carat (for the sapphire), which is 3cts. I've been trawling the auction listings and its all over the place for Kashmir Sapphires, but most of the nice jewelry pieces with cut stones (not cabochons) seem to go for much more than that. I can't find many good comps for cabochons.

I mean, it is a stunning ring, but I also don't want to make a stunningly expensive mistake! :oops2:
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
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Ouch.
i did some research but of course Kashmir sapphires are rare so there’s not a lot of them out there.
Leon Mege has a somewhat comparable ring with a Kashmir cabochon but I can’t access price ( don’t have a US address)
Being a cabochon shape the per carat price is lower than facetted.
Being a cabochon shape you get less visual size for carat weight.
Personally I think $25K a carat is a little too much for cabochon BUT where do you find another. That’s the problem.
if your wife can “step away” from a Kashmir sapphire and recreate the ring using a very fine Burmese or Ceylon sapphire you could save yourself a lot of money.
 

AV_

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
3,395
It is a perfect cab, of the same proportions and crystal quality as if a faceted stone - I do not expect discounts www.

There is some enormous zing for blue sapphires that have both that origin & the color it made famous - what you are looking at; 2 ct Kashmir & 4 ct X - the work & the quotes tell of this reputation...

This other stuff is famously that color by another name - www

I understand the preference for a cabochon. The Kashmir name & the 'investment' aspect is not something I want to ever worry about.

The rest of the ring, never mind, unless there is a prominent signature to it.

2p
 

demantoidz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
39
Just my newb opinion based on observation. Finding comparisons will take probing sellers for information, since often they don't publish all items for sale or don't publish their prices. This results in wasting both your and their time. Pretty frustrating, but what can you do.

Jogani (https://jogani.com/) have shown off faceted kashmir sapphires on their Instagram before. Not sure if they have any cab comparisons but its worth asking. They actually had a pretty similar ring looks-wise, but with a larger Burmese sapphire cab instead.

B.G stones on instagram (https://www.instagram.com/b.g.stones/), whom I think one PSer dealt with, relatively often have fine sugarloaf sapphire cabs, but I do not know if they have access to Kashmir material. Worth asking for a price estimate.


Some quick comparisons -

4ct, 80k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/engagement-rings/art-deco-4-carat-kashmir-sapphire-diamond-platinum-ring/id-j_1331443/

Tiffany brand 3.8ct, 190k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/cluster-rings/tiffany-co-380-carat-sugarloaf-kashmir-sapphire-diamond-art-deco-ring/id-j_4042001/

2ct, 58k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/dome-rings/agl-certified-196-carat-kashmir-sapphire-platinum-diamond-micro-pave-ring/id-j_4665083/

Note that these prices are before negotiations or special sales. I assume that some sellers are open to negotiation and others are relatively firm.
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,008
Thanks guys. I believe its a full origin report, AGL, as it states origin as Kashmir and confirms the stone has no heat or enhancements.

Its out of a personal collection (trusted person), the seller has alluded to ~$25k per carat (for the sapphire), which is 3cts. I've been trawling the auction listings and its all over the place for Kashmir Sapphires, but most of the nice jewelry pieces with cut stones (not cabochons) seem to go for much more than that. I can't find many good comps for cabochons.

I mean, it is a stunning ring, but I also don't want to make a stunningly expensive mistake! :oops2:
One thing to keep in mind is the retail $/ct is one thing, but if a private person tries to sell a gemstone into the trade or by auction, they will likely get no more than 50% of retail. So if you are dealing with a private person there could be a lot of room for negotiation.

I would start by asking the seller how they arrived at the $25K/ct before making any offer. The explanation could help you figure out your offer. One thing I learned in negotiation is if you don't start low, you'll for sure never get low!!!
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
Just my newb opinion based on observation. Finding comparisons will take probing sellers for information, since often they don't publish all items for sale or don't publish their prices. This results in wasting both your and their time. Pretty frustrating, but what can you do.

Jogani (https://jogani.com/) have shown off faceted kashmir sapphires on their Instagram before. Not sure if they have any cab comparisons but its worth asking. They actually had a pretty similar ring looks-wise, but with a larger Burmese sapphire cab instead.

B.G stones on instagram (https://www.instagram.com/b.g.stones/), whom I think one PSer dealt with, relatively often have fine sugarloaf sapphire cabs, but I do not know if they have access to Kashmir material. Worth asking for a price estimate.


Some quick comparisons -

4ct, 80k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/engagement-rings/art-deco-4-carat-kashmir-sapphire-diamond-platinum-ring/id-j_1331443/

Tiffany brand 3.8ct, 190k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/cluster-rings/tiffany-co-380-carat-sugarloaf-kashmir-sapphire-diamond-art-deco-ring/id-j_4042001/

2ct, 58k: https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/dome-rings/agl-certified-196-carat-kashmir-sapphire-platinum-diamond-micro-pave-ring/id-j_4665083/

Note that these prices are before negotiations or special sales. I assume that some sellers are open to negotiation and others are relatively firm.
Thank you for this!

The Leon Mege ring referenced earlier is $58k, and the other one that you found, 4ct for $80k are very interesting. Assuming a discount of 30-50% for a private sale it seems like perhaps $15k/carat might be the right ballpark, with a little incremental for the platinum/diamonds.

Lots more research to do, but thanks to everyone for all the feedback this is at least pointing me in the right direction!
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
One thing to keep in mind is the retail $/ct is one thing, but if a private person tries to sell a gemstone into the trade or by auction, they will likely get no more than 50% of retail. So if you are dealing with a private person there could be a lot of room for negotiation.

I would start by asking the seller how they arrived at the $25K/ct before making any offer. The explanation could help you figure out your offer. One thing I learned in negotiation is if you don't start low, you'll for sure never get low!!!
Completely agree re negotiation strategy! I did in fact ask this question, and the response was basically to point me towards auction results for Kashmir Sapphires, where the typical price per ct is much higher (which I've checked and it does seem to be the case), and to apply a discount based on the fact that it is a Cab.

A key question for me right now is to confirm whether this is in fact the famous 'Kasmir' color or not - if it is, then I think that lends a whole lot more weight to these numbers..
 

AV_

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
3,395
Kashmir - www , Kashmir - www , Kashmir - www


A couple of laboratories will identify geographic origin, color type - I do not remember who says what of it [GRS, AGL, SSEF - there is a lab tour www] I assume no one wants these heated, but have not paid attention. I would ask about the Madagascar for some reference on the reputation of color.
 
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icy_jade

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,239
I’ve heard from traders that quite a lot of Madagascar sapphires were wrongly certified and sold as Kashmir sapphires before people realized what was happening. And still floating around in the market...

Read

Just be careful that you are indeed paying for a real Kashmir sapphire since the price premium is significant. If I’m in the market for a real Kashmir sapphire, I will expect either a recent certificate from Gubelin or SSEF - recent because it has to be after the industry realized what was happening and started classifying the stones properly. I’m not sure all labs can identify the stones properly so only these two. For the price expected, the certification cost is quite insignificant
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,008
Completely agree re negotiation strategy! I did in fact ask this question, and the response was basically to point me towards auction results for Kashmir Sapphires, where the typical price per ct is much higher (which I've checked and it does seem to be the case), and to apply a discount based on the fact that it is a Cab.

A key question for me right now is to confirm whether this is in fact the famous 'Kasmir' color or not - if it is, then I think that lends a whole lot more weight to these numbers..

Do the auction results include the buyer's premium of 25%? If so you can deduct that from the price the seller receives. You can also deduct the seller's premium. I don't know what a typical seller's premium is as it is open to negotiation, I would guess at least 10%.
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
I’ve heard from traders that quite a lot of Madagascar sapphires were wrongly certified and sold as Kashmir sapphires before people realized what was happening. And still floating around in the market...

Read

Just be careful that you are indeed paying for a real Kashmir sapphire since the price premium is significant. If I’m in the market for a real Kashmir sapphire, I will expect either a recent certificate from Gubelin or SSEF - recent because it has to be after the industry realized what was happening and started classifying the stones properly. I’m not sure all labs can identify the stones properly so only these two. For the price expected, the certification cost is quite insignificant
Great point. He actually sent it out at the end of 2019 (to AGL) for this very reason and it came back consistent with Kashmir. Might be worth asking to send it out to one more lab to confirm
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,902
I don't have any experience with Kashmir origin sapphires, apart from seeing them in books and videos. However, I would ask for a full grading report from AGL. The total quality rating (TQR) will give you more information on whether the sapphire is merely good or excellent. The photos you posted, I see a bit of gray in the color, though that could be due to dust if it isn't clean in the top photo.
 

AV_

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
3,395
'Burma' www www (how many do they have)
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
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1,020
It looks like it faces up small for a 3 ct.

I guess it is worth whatever you are willing to pay for it. Have you tried taking her to see leon merge or enhoerning or a jeweler who can source good quality Burmese no heat faceted sapphires? She might discover she likes them even more than the cabonchon, and with ~80 k to play with you should be able to get a nice 4-5 ct. faceted stone (it just wont be Kashmiri origin). But many of us would prefer that option.
 

icy_jade

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,239
Great point. He actually sent it out at the end of 2019 (to AGL) for this very reason and it came back consistent with Kashmir. Might be worth asking to send it out to one more lab to confirm
For a Kashmir sapphire, Gubelin or SSEF. I wouldn’t consider other labs, no offense meant but for such a big value purchase I will insist only on the most qualified lab/s, and perhaps more than one cert to be sure (which is also how the auction houses do it)
 
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Rfisher

Brilliant_Rock
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Oct 19, 2013
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Face up small, sure
But look at that profile- borderlining on sugarloaf territory!
:love:
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2014
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It’s a $$$$ issue when gems have a favoured desirable origin. But being from Kashmir doesn’t make it the “best” sapphire out there. Like Burmese rubies, a fine example is breathtaking but plenty of average example are also from Kashmir (Or Burma).
there are Burmese sapphires, even Ceylon sapphires that will rival all but the very best Kashmir sapphire.
Kashmir colour and appearance, the “look” worth $$$$$ is vivid royal blue and silky. A glow almost. Only the best examples show this effect with perfectly and evenly distributed fine rutile silk.
a cabochon is worth considerably less than a facetted gem and price per carat increases exponentially the bigger the sapphire. Like diamonds, bigger is rarer. The price per carat for a 2 carat sapphire is less than that of a 3 carat. Over 5 is another price and over 10 carats, we’ll, you are entering $500,000 a carat plus territory.
if your wife is besotted with the look, not the name, a fine Burmese sapphire will wow just as much but at 50% less. If you move into “heated” gems, a fine blue heated of 3 carats can be had for around $5k a carat.
obviously the ring can be seen as a type of investment, they aren’t finding more of them and a Kashmir sapphire is a desirable label.
Mr Google supplied this example of a Kashmir but this is the look of 1E3E9B95-5D80-4C39-8B23-3F04D7227187.jpeg a Kashmir sapphire
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2014
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This a screenshot of @Acinom stunning 5 carat odd sapphire ring. OMG.
This is an absolutely superb Ceylon sapphire and I would say her sapphire would wrap rings around most Kashmir sapphires.
its all very nice to have a “name” sapphire but it’s what you see every time you look down at it. Every time I look at photos of Acinoms sapphire my heart skips a beat. 9712F865-B253-4B2E-BCD9-C5B8232AC413.jpeg
 

lmyracle

Shiny_Rock
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Feb 8, 2018
Messages
236
I love her sapphire too, bron! It makes mine look like it came from the gumball machine. I do love mine but when you compare, hers is to die for. They say comparison is the thief of joy...lol...
 

qubitasaurus

Brilliant_Rock
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Dec 18, 2014
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1,020
Face up small, sure
But look at that profile- borderlining on sugarloaf territory!
:love:


Yes but I cant get past the fact that the daimond melee are only 1/4 ct. each and the sapphire is facing up at a roughly comparable size to the melee.

It is just that with a 75 k ring, I would be feeling quite picky. And I think I would have preferred something not quite so inflated by the Kashmiri origin; with a bigger sapphire or a nice faceted stone.

I would also contact these guys.


For some context the jongani stone in the link is apparently 10.6 ct burmese no heat. And from the second photo in the linked listing I can not discern much difference at all between the cabonchon at the top of this thread and the jongani stone. I actually dont know the price of the linked stone, but I'd be very curious about how it stacked up.
 
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prs

Brilliant_Rock
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It may be the photos but the stone in the OP doesn't look anywhere near the color of the two magnificent stones @Bron357 just posted.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 22, 2014
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3,981
I’m with @qubitasaurus, if those diamonds are only 25 points, that makes the visual size of the sapphire around 5mm.
By comparison, my two sapphire are just under 3 carats but as a RB cut and modified OEC, their spread is 9.2 mm.
718583E1-8B61-40E0-A671-C000B992B7D3.jpeg

Almost twice the “visual presence”.
And being such a high cabochon I would be constantly worried I’d be accidentally “whacking” the top of the sapphire doing everyday things. Who wants to whack accidentally $75,000 worth of sapphire!
So they are the issues I’d consider
Does it have the premium look of a good Kashmir sapphire?
Does it matter that despite its carat weight it is ”facing up” small?
 

finerthings

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
279
@Midnight Blues I want to say that I am living vicariously through you and your wife's hunt for her perfect sapphire ring! =)2 I think that the unheated Kashmir cabochon surrounded by those delicious diamonds is gorgeous, and if your wife prefers cabochons over faceted stones your decision is all but made! You are doing your due diligence and no matter the end result, I have no doubt that you will end up with one fabulous ring! I will stay tuned for sure!
 

Midnight Blues

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
8
The diamonds are actually 0.5-0.6ct each, total weight of 3.5ct. In person, the center stone does face up a little small, but as a whole the ring looks very balanced and the old european cut diamonds have an amazing sparkle in their own right



Yes but I cant get past the fact that the daimond melee are only 1/4 ct. each and the sapphire is facing up at a roughly comparable size to the melee.

It is just that with a 75 k ring, I would be feeling quite picky. And I think I would have preferred something not quite so inflated by the Kashmiri origin; with a bigger sapphire or a nice faceted stone.

I would also contact these guys.


For some context the jongani stone in the link is apparently 10.6 ct burmese no heat. And from the second photo in the linked listing I can not discern much difference at all between the cabonchon at the top of this thread and the jongani stone. I actually dont know the price of the linked stone, but I'd be very curious about how it stacked up.
 
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