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opinions on premium, ideal, and H&A cuts

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diamondseeker2006

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jan 11, 2006
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I went to another fine jewelry store yesterday to look at real diamonds. They had some nice stones around 1.5 carats which is what I am looking for. However, they would all fall into the premium cut category. Since I could not put an ideal cut or H&A next to them, I could not really say which I''d prefer or whether the increased price is worth it. I know this bunch on here is highly discriminating, but I need some honest opinions.

I basically can choose (online) between a 1.6 ct. premium cut H, VS1 (almost ideal cut) for about $10,500, or go with a H&A 1.38, G, VS1 for around $11,500, or an ideal cut G-H VS1 around 1.5 for @ $12,000. (I was hoping to spend close to $10,000 for the diamond). I know this is not giving you all the numbers for HCA, and at this time I do not have all those numbers available. But I am just not sure that most regular people would think that the 1.6 premium cut stone was not beautiful since they would likely have rarely seen a better stone than that. For that matter, I am not sure I have, since most of the jewelry stores simply do not stock H&A diamonds. I''ve been to two upscale stores and they both had premium cut stones at that size level. I''m sure it is to have competitive prices since most people only know about color and clarity. And I thought all the stones I saw yesterday WERE beautiful! I''m just wondering how beautiful is sufficient??? (I just don''t want to go to the $15,000+ level to get a 1.5 ct. or above. And this is my only trade-up since the first diamond has lasted 29 years! I need to make the right decision this time. It is just hard doing this without seeing the diamonds next to each other.).
 
You are right. It is hard to decide how much difference there is without seeing them side by side.

What exactly constitues "premium" to your jewler? I''d want to know that.

I would always put my money into cut first, and then size.
 
Hello Diamondseeker,

Well after 29-years of mairrage I think you deserve an upgrade.

First of all, as you have already pointed out, a H&A diamond in the size you want is going to go over your $10,000 budget.

If you are keen to stick to your budget, then i would come down in size slight to a 1.30ct but stick with H&A cut. I would not compromise at all on the cut. I know you said that most other people wouldn''t know the difference, but believe me you will. 1.30ct diamond is still a substantial size and you should be able to pick one up for around $10,000.

If money isn''t an issue here, then I''d go for a 1.5ct but don''t compromise on the cut.

Just my opinion!

best wishes Blod
 
have you looked over whiteflash.com es line or jamesallen.com offerings?
Both offer near h&a to h&a quality at a slightly lower price than the super-ideal h&a''s like the infinity, ACAs and GOG H&A diamonds.
To be honest that quality level is about as low as I would want to go.
www.goodoldgold.com has some high performance ideal cut diamonds that also might fit the bill.
 
I check those sites everyday! James Allen seems to have good prices. They have the 1.38 I am interested in. No one else has any nice hearts and arrows above 1.30 and under 1.5. A 1.30 just doesn''t look much different from the 1.02 that I have had for 29 years! A 1.4 range stone would be ideal (pun intended), I guess, but GOG sold the one they had (1.42 G VS 1 or 2) right when I started looking! But I guess I can wait. I don''t have a time limit other than it would be nice to have sooner rather than later!
 
When I said "no one else" has any, I meant WF, GOG, JA, or Winfield''s.
 
Seems you''ve got a good handle on what you want and how much it is going to cost. Since the vendors you like don''t have many listed, I would probably call them and talk to them. A year or so ago, a friend of mine was having a hard time finding exactly what she wanted, and she called Brian at WF who tracked down a stone for her within about a month. I don''t know if it would have eventually popped up on the website, but I think she probably got first dibs on it (and she took it).

Personally, for an upgrade after having been married for 29 years, I would not want to sacrifice on cut. I''d rather come down a notch or 2 in clarity (SI1 eye clean rather than VS1?) and possibly color to get a nice combination within my budget and get the biggest stone I could afford.
 
I think you are right about calling and being very specific about them looking for a stone for me. Maybe Brian can cut me one! I will go to an H in color, but I was always dissatisfied once I learned my original diamond was SI2 even though it is eye clean (and F color). So I really do not want to go below VS2 with very insignificant inclusions.
 
good advice give a couple of the vendors a call or email and set them hunting.
At the least have them keep an eye out.
 
Diamondseeker,

That''s a REALLY good question. How good is good enough?? (This could be a question from a new show called "Diamond in the City!" LOL........I can only tell you my experience, which was that after careful consideration, I didn''t want to get so caught up in numbers, but I wanted a stone that was GIA graded, was at least 1 carat (my stone wound up being 1.12 carat) had close to ideal cut proportions. This point is arguable - as my stone is basically a 60/60 cut stone, meaning the depth and table are almost identical in proportion, where some would say the depth should be larger. My stone is G in color and is VS2 in clarity. I didn''t see a brilliance scope. I didn''t get a sarin report. I don''t know if my stone would outperform or underperform other stones of similar proportions.

What I do know is my stone is simply beautiful. In virtually all lighting situations it sparkles better than any diamond I have ever owned and is prettier than many diamonds of higher cost and size that I''ve seen. And my stone fit my budget!

So, again.......how good is good enough? IMHO, as long as you are buying a stone of this size, it needs to be graded by a quality lab, like GIA or AGS. It should have good proportions and you shouldn''t see any inclusions with your eyes. And it should speak to you. In other words, it should have the sparkle, fire, scintillation you want in a stone. Oh, and it should be in your pricerange.

Congratulations on 29 years and I hope the stone you buy, is indeed good enough for you. Don''t worry about what''s good enough for someone else. There will always be a stone that is better, bigger, more expensive, but it may not be the stone for you.

Best wishes..........
 
I bought an Ideal cut stone (proportions that fall within the Ideal category) but it is not hearts and arrows. It does have some symmetry in the center as there are arrows, not all exactly the same size on the idealscope but the arrows really do not show except at certain angles.

I wanted a large stone since I was upgrading from a good size stone. My stone is beautiufl and very lively.

You can get an Ideal proportioned stone and not pay the premium for hearts and arrows which are not always Ideal proportions.

I worked with Whiteflash and Lesley and Brian sought a stone for me that worked out to my great satisfaction. If the stone is very well proportioned, the hearts and arrows or branded stones may not necessarily make a visible difference and you would not be paying a premium for something that may not mattter to you. Some people love hearts and arrows and others either find that you can find beautiful stones that do not fall into this category. Then there are some who do not like them or feel they are not necessary for a diamond to be beautiful.

It is really a matter of taste. And if you can get a larger,Ideal cut stone that is not H&A you may find that you are very pleased. It really depends upon how important H&A look is to you and whether your eyes are discerning enough to have it make a difference if you can get a larger, very beautiful stone within your budget without those requirements.
 
Very good question, I am a big believer in cut but a premium cut doesn''t mean that it''s crap you know? I think you just need to discern 1. How important it is to stay to your budget. and then 2. Whats more important size or cut. In my opinion if you like the premium cut diamond and you think you''ll be happy wearing it then get it. A question I have for you though, do you have the size of the stones? Millimeter wise? The ones your looking at online should have them posted. Do you have that for the ones your looking at in the store? Even though some of the stones aren''t the same carat weight thier measurements might not be that far off. I got my rock from james allen. If your going for cut his signature series are gorgeous....mine is just an ideal cut from there. :)
 
deviant brings up a good point. a well cut stone of lesser carat weight can face up larger than a poorly cut stone of a greater carat weight. I had an Old european cut stone that was 1.2 carats but only had a mm spread of 6.5 mm which is the same as a modern well cut 1 carat round. When comparing the stones of you local jeweler, make sure the diameters/carat are similar otherwise you might pay for a 1.5 carat stone that faces up or looks like a 1.3 carat, a well cut stone can make a 1.3 look like a 1.5
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As most of you know, I specialize in the finer cuts, but I want to say with total candor that a well cut diamond can look VERY good, even if it is not H&A or even not ideal.

The reason I specialize in the finer cuts is because that is what I like, but as a jeweler I have had many opportunities to learn that I am not the arbitor of my client's tastes. Many times I have bought large parcels of stones that I would NEVER buy or give to my wife only to have them FLY out the door because they are big and cheap! I once bought a parcel of fifteen or twenty stones that each weighed over a carat and sold them to my local clients for $1,800 per carat. Guaranteed none of them even vaguely resembled even a well cut diamond on paper and the clarity was from I1-I2 with colors from F-K. Whole parcel was gone in less than a month, all to local clients who came in, saw that they were very pretty in spite of themselves and CHEAP! Frankly, the stones were worth $1,800/ct wholesale, but I had to sell them quick, my check was to be deposited at the end of 30 days and I had made the bet that I could cover the check when I bought the diamonds. (With full knowledge by the seller that I did not have the money at the time, I had just spent all that I had with him earlier and told him I was already 30k over budget and thus done when he took out this parcel to tease me with why I needed more money. He dared me to take it and I dared him to accept my rubber check. We both won!)

Chances are our supplicant will be very happy with a larger stone at the price she can afford and I am hoping that she will get a chance to see such stones side by side with a true H&A for her to decide. I know that often my men clients will opt for the smaller better cut, only to have his lady come in and trade it back in for a larger lesser cut. One proud purchaser of a 1.6ct EightStar had his wife inform him that she had been waiting for 20 years for a 2ct and by goodness she was NOT going to SETTLE for a 1.6ct diamond no matter what! She ended up with a 2.25ct not even H&A that made her VERY happy. And yes, she saw them both side by side.

Any way, I am just trying to say that no matter what WE like, we do not have the priveledge of telling someone else that a stone that does not meet our standards is not worthy of consideration. It may in fact NOT be worthy to us, but the choice must be that of the person who is looking as it may be completely worthy to her.

Wink
 
What a great story Wink. And this helps to illustrate my earlier post........How good is good enough? It''s personal and as your story demonstrates, some people are pretty happy with just OK, while others may expect perfection. Good for they buyer who is happy with their purchase!
 
Date: 1/17/2006 12:41:40 PM
Author: devientdrow
Very good question, I am a big believer in cut but a premium cut doesn''t mean that it''s crap you know? I think you just need to discern 1. How important it is to stay to your budget. and then 2. Whats more important size or cut. In my opinion if you like the premium cut diamond and you think you''ll be happy wearing it then get it. A question I have for you though, do you have the size of the stones? Millimeter wise? The ones your looking at online should have them posted. Do you have that for the ones your looking at in the store? Even though some of the stones aren''t the same carat weight thier measurements might not be that far off. I got my rock from james allen. If your going for cut his signature series are gorgeous....mine is just an ideal cut from there. :)
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I know myself well enough that if I compromise too much on one factor, I won''t be happy. That''s why I am trying to set some boundaries and balance out all the factors. I know I won''t go lower than H in color or VS2. I''m just not sure of the cut boundary yet. And the other three factors effect the size I can get!

Yes, I look carefully at the diameter of the stones. I won''t pay for a 1.5 that measures smaller than 7.4 mm because that defeats the purpose (in my mind) of paying the premium for the 1.5! So one of my requirements is that the diameter even of ideal cut stones have an average or better diameter. And yes, I requested copies of the certs from all the store diamonds so I could plug them into HCA. And the best one was "good" according to the HCA. I possibly have never seen a 1!

I have a couple from James Allen on my list, one signature and one ideal cut. I am sure your diamond is beautiful as are all I have seen on this list!
 
Date: 1/17/2006 2:51:34 PM
Author: Rod
What a great story Wink. And this helps to illustrate my earlier post........How good is good enough? It''s personal and as your story demonstrates, some people are pretty happy with just OK, while others may expect perfection. Good for they buyer who is happy with their purchase!
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Yes, and I am sure this is why the jewelers I visited stock more premium stones...those ARE above average compared to the stones sold in most mall/chain stores and will sell faster than the highest priced ones!

If I had an independent appraiser nearby, I''d have three or four stones shipped in to look at, but the only appraisers I know have a jewelry store and wouldn''t be so happy for me to bring in outside stones, I''m sure! Or I guess we could shell out the big bucks and buy three and return two. Ugh! (My husband might decide that would be a dangerous idea seeing that I just might like more than one!
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I have another thought that might not be conventional. But there is a certain charm to me about diamonds simply cut by a master cutter before the days of the computer telling them where to make the cuts, or however that works. You know, like a beautiful handmade quilt with it''s tiny little stiches made by hand as opposed to the more perfect mass-produced machine made quilts. Both pretty and useful, though. (And I know diamonds aren''t made by machine exactly..it''s just an example)
 
You make a really good point with that.........How rare will a well cut stone be, if making well cut stones becomes common? Hmmmmmm.........another "Diamond in the City" episode. LOL
 
Date: 1/17/2006 3:19:34 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I have another thought that might not be conventional. But there is a certain charm to me about diamonds simply cut by a master cutter before the days of the computer telling them where to make the cuts, or however that works.
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That''s partly why my precious RHR is an Old Mine cut.
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Diamondseeker, I''d suggest you contact Hearts on Fire and find the location of your nearest vendor. I would never suggest you *buy* HoF but as the largest vendor of H&A stones the odds better that there''s someplace close to you where you can see a super ideal stone. Then, go to that jeweler and see for yourself if the premium for a H&A is worth it to you. Also make sure you ask the jeweler if you could see the HoF next to a less well cut stone.
 
Hess,

What a BRILLIANT suggestion! (Say with feeling, like the commercial on the tv for some brand of beer or other. Funny, I can not remember what brand the beer is, but I love the way they keep yelling BRILLIANT!)

Wink
 
That is really a great idea...it''ll just require a little travel to do it, unfortunately!
 
True, but the travel will be cheaper than buying a diamond you do not like.
 
Very true!
 
God, I love them all.

From Old Mine Cuts to Super Ideals, they all have personality and charm to me.

They're like women. You've got all these mega super models out there, but often a voluptuous vamp with a slightly broken nose and lots of sex appeal will make them pale in comparison.

Don't ask me. I'm hopelessly in love with them all. (diamonds)
 
Aww, Rich! Well said! I think one of each is the way to solve this!
 
Nice analogy, Rich!! lol

Honestly, you just have to pick what looks good to you....who cares what "label" is attached to it???? Each diamond, unbranded or not, has its own beauty and characteristics that make it special. Just find what looks nice to YOUR eye, that is all that matters....
 
Date: 1/17/2006 8:07:28 PM
Author: Wink
Hess,

What a BRILLIANT suggestion! (Say with feeling, like the commercial on the tv for some brand of beer or other. Funny, I can not remember what brand the beer is, but I love the way they keep yelling BRILLIANT!)

Wink
Click to expand...
Guinness! BRILLIANT!
 
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