Opinions on Gorilla killed at Cinn. Zoo

[msop04]

I'm not sure I agree with this. I have watched too many documentaries (about dolphins, elephants, killer whales, etc.) to believe we know more than the tip of the iceberg about their own particular intelligences. I think there are different levels and kinds of intelligence particular to each species. I think our intelligence combined with our physical attributes have allowed us to dominate pretty much all other species. But I don't equate dominance with being superior. And I don't equate dominance with value; i.e. I don't think our lives are more valuable than that of an animal's because we can more easily dominate them, or overtake their societies with ours because our intelligence and skill set allow for 'advancements'.

However, I must sadly confess that my actions do not always reflect that thought process. For example, I can't claim value a mosquitoe's life over my comfort, because I don't hesitate to kill one when it bites me.

I agree that said animals certainly have a higher intelligence than most... but I do value human life over animals. Of course I do, I'm human. I can honestly say I believe that human life always trumps the life of any animal, if the human life is in danger.

 

[AGBF]

I truly, truly understand where Chrono is coming from. That's all.

Deb

 

[msop04]

msop,
Who are we to play God to decide whose life is worth more? Is a whale's life worth more than an eagle's? Is a cat's life worth more than a dog? We are a part of nature too, and as such, humans are also animals. Why are humans placed above all other lifeforms? What gives humans the right to control all other lifeforms and decide their fate?

Seriously???? That was an innocent CHILD. It's not playing God to put that child's life first. Do you have children? What if that were your son or daughter that fell in there?

Yes, I have children and it would be MY responsibility, wouldn't it? Harambe was also an innocent, doing nothing wrong at all.

So, if it would have been your child in that situation, what would you rather have been done?

 

[marym]

msop,
Who are we to play God to decide whose life is worth more? Is a whale's life worth more than an eagle's? Is a cat's life worth more than a dog? We are a part of nature too, and as such, humans are also animals. Why are humans placed above all other lifeforms? What gives humans the right to control all other lifeforms and decide their fate?

Seriously???? That was an innocent CHILD. It's not playing God to put that child's life first. Do you have children? What if that were your son or daughter that fell in there?

Yes, I have children and it would be MY responsibility, wouldn't it? Harambe was also an innocent, doing nothing wrong at all.

This makes no sense to me. Ok, maybe it would be your responsibility that the accident happened in the first place, but a terrible choice by the zoo staff HAD to be made to save the child's life. It's awful that the gorilla had to be shot but there was NO other alternative. Who is responsible for him getting in there is irrelevant. The boy had to be saved, period. Are you saying you wouldn't want the gorilla to be shot if it were your child in there getting thrown around, possibly getting crushed or ripped apart at any moment???

 

[msop04]

Why is a child's life worth more than what we have done and continue to do to endangered animals?

The Bible says so.

Genesis 1:28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

kenny, why must you always mock any and all religious beliefs? It's immature. Seriously. Besides, I'm pretty sure that most with no religious beliefs at all would agree to kill an animal if it meant saving the life of a child.

 

[marym]

Why is a child's life worth more than what we have done and continue to do to endangered animals?

The Bible says so.

Genesis 1:28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

kenny, why must you always mock any and all religious beliefs? It's immature. Seriously. Besides, I'm pretty sure that most with no religious beliefs at all would agree to kill an animal if it meant saving the life of a child.

+1!!!!

 

[Madam Bijoux]

ultimately it is the zoos responsibility to keep the animals and the people safe.
They failed on both accounts. They are responsible.
Having been around a few 3 year olds they are the masters of there one second and gone the next so I don't blame the mom.
Once the gorilla got hold of the child they had no choice but to kill it.

I would like to see a bunch of zoo officials get fired as well as anyone who knew about the hole the child got into and did nothing.
You want to bet it was known about before hand and someone said naw its to small no one would get in and it would cost money to fix so it was left alone.
That will be buried by the zoo and unless a whistle-blower talks it will never be proven.

I completely agree.

I don't know how fast the tranquilizers in tranquilizer guns work - maybe that wouldn't have worked quickly enough to be an option.

 

[msop04]

ultimately it is the zoos responsibility to keep the animals and the people safe.
They failed on both accounts. They are responsible.
Having been around a few 3 year olds they are the masters of there one second and gone the next so I don't blame the mom.
Once the gorilla got hold of the child they had no choice but to kill it.

I would like to see a bunch of zoo officials get fired as well as anyone who knew about the hole the child got into and did nothing.
You want to bet it was known about before hand and someone said naw its to small no one would get in and it would cost money to fix so it was left alone.
That will be buried by the zoo and unless a whistle-blower talks it will never be proven.

I completely agree.

I don't know how fast the tranquilizers in tranquilizer guns work - maybe that wouldn't have worked quickly enough to be an option.

I thought this very thing, MB... a news anchor said that the tranquilizer guns can take longer on such large animals and make them more combative, which they didn't want to chance -- completely understandable in this type scenario.

 

[momhappy]

No, a tranquilizer was not an option for a number of reasons (time being the most critical). Google the video of Cha Cha the chimp and see how he responded to being tranquilized - he became confused, enraged, etc. Again, not a risk the zoo was willing to take given the circumstances. They absolutely made the right choice.

 

[rainydaze]

ultimately it is the zoos responsibility to keep the animals and the people safe.
They failed on both accounts. They are responsible.
Having been around a few 3 year olds they are the masters of there one second and gone the next so I don't blame the mom.
Once the gorilla got hold of the child they had no choice but to kill it.

I would like to see a bunch of zoo officials get fired as well as anyone who knew about the hole the child got into and did nothing.
You want to bet it was known about before hand and someone said naw its to small no one would get in and it would cost money to fix so it was left alone.
That will be buried by the zoo and unless a whistle-blower talks it will never be proven.

I think that ultimately it is parents' responsibility to keep their children safe; even better if they are considerate enough to recognize their responsibility to help keep the animals safe too. We can have a reasonable expectation of safeguards for our kids, but we must still be critical, alert, aware, cautious, etc. And yes, I realize that even then, there is room for error.

If the zoo had met or exceeded its ability and obligation to make its facility safe, and the parents had met or exceeded their ability and obligation to keep their child safe, this probably wouldn't have happened.

One or both failed. From what I have read, it was a little of both, with a little more negligence the parenting side.

 

[msop04]

ultimately it is the zoos responsibility to keep the animals and the people safe.
They failed on both accounts. They are responsible.
Having been around a few 3 year olds they are the masters of there one second and gone the next so I don't blame the mom.
Once the gorilla got hold of the child they had no choice but to kill it.

I would like to see a bunch of zoo officials get fired as well as anyone who knew about the hole the child got into and did nothing.
You want to bet it was known about before hand and someone said naw its to small no one would get in and it would cost money to fix so it was left alone.
That will be buried by the zoo and unless a whistle-blower talks it will never be proven.

I think that ultimately it is parents' responsibility to keep their children safe; even better if they are considerate enough to recognize their responsibility to help keep the animals safe too. We can have a reasonable expectation of safeguards for our kids, but we must still be critical, alert, aware, cautious, etc. And yes, I realize that even then, there is room for error.

If the zoo had met or exceeded its ability and obligation to make its facility safe, and the parents had met or exceeded their ability and obligation to keep their child safe, this probably wouldn't have happened.

One or both failed. From what I have read, it was a little of both, with a little more negligence the parenting side.

Both are to blame... truly. I feel really bad for the mother. She seems to be taking a lot of heat, and I'm sure she has punished herself and will continue to do so for long after this story blows over. Parents aren't perfect. Things happen. This just was very unfortunate situation that could have been much, much worse. I hope this will reinforce to parents the importance of keeping a very close watch on children.

 

[kenny]

Why is a child's life worth more than what we have done and continue to do to endangered animals?

The Bible says so.

Genesis 1:28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

kenny, why must you always mock any and all religious beliefs? It's immature. Seriously. Besides, I'm pretty sure that most with no religious beliefs at all would agree to kill an animal if it meant saving the life of a child.

Religion is a powerful force that, even in 2016, shapes culture in ways that escape our notice.

Apparently presenting reasonable evidence of this is, to you, mocking.

 

[msop04]

Why is a child's life worth more than what we have done and continue to do to endangered animals?

The Bible says so.

Genesis 1:28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

kenny, why must you always mock any and all religious beliefs? It's immature. Seriously. Besides, I'm pretty sure that most with no religious beliefs at all would agree to kill an animal if it meant saving the life of a child.

Religion is a powerful force that, even in 2016, shapes culture in ways that escape our notice.

Apparently presenting reasonable evidence of this is, to you, mocking.

Coming from you, yes, this comes across as mocking... especially given that you make comments mocking those who have religious beliefs on a regular basis. You've made it clear on several threads that you don't have any religious beliefs and abhor those who do, so to try to make this about "those religious folks" is right up your alley. But this isn't a "religious" thing. This was doing what had to be done in order to save a child's life.

 

[rainwood]

I always find it interesting when people say something like "I just can't understand how someone would think like that" or "it's obvious that" and then expect people who hold a different view to keep explaining or justify their differing viewpoints. If you can't understand someone else's perspective, that's really your issue, not theirs, and no one should feel compelled to explain it or justify it to you again. Especially when you've shown you're unlikely to change your own opinion.

People can have different views on almost EVERYTHING so either recognize that and move on or do some thinking on your own to see if you can figure out where they're coming from. But don't expect them to do that work for you. It's not their responsibility to open your mind to other viewpoints.

 

[packrat]

It's funny to me that it's so ingrained in us to be 100% certain beyond a shadow of a doubt what we would do in situations and what other people shoulda woulda coulda done in those exact situations, based on what we know of a situation that we were not a part of in any way shape or form, and actions that needed to be taken and decisions that needed to be made in a matter of seconds, demanding repercussions for things we really don't understand. This discussion reminds me of something..hmm....

Regarding our supposed superiority over animals. In some respects, yes, look at what humans have accomplished-we have been to the moon, we have technology available to us that enable us to do unheard of and wondrous things. We can create works of unsurpassed beauty in different artforms, tend to gardens full of color and texture, make music that can bring men to tears.

And yet, we also commit the most atrocious acts against one another, sometimes for sport. For fun. Because we were angry. Because we felt we were wronged. We purposely segregate and attack other humans b/c they don't think like us, look like us, act like us, believe like us. Animals don't do that. Humans make a mockery of what abilities we've gained.

 

[kenny]

But this isn't a "religious" thing. This was doing what had to be done in order to save a child's life.

Uhm ... Bingo!
Caught ya.

You just demonstrated how religion makes its way into secular culture ... and we're not even aware of it!

That a human life should outrank an animal's life is a religious teaching ...
Genesis 1:28. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

 

[msop04]

But this isn't a "religious" thing. This was doing what had to be done in order to save a child's life.

Uhm ... Bingo!
Caught ya.

You just demonstrated how religion makes its way into secular culture ... and we're not even aware of it!

That a human life should outrank an animal's life is a religious teaching ...
Genesis 1:28. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

I understand that the Bible states that. But there are many, many others who have zero religious affiliation or teaching who would agree.

...and since you have no religion, you disagree, I'm assuming? If not, then you just demonstrated how religion has nothing to do with this.

For that matter, one of the most important teaching in the Christian Bible is to love others and treat them as you would like to be treated. I KNOW you agree with this, but yet you're not religious. See how that works? There are lots of things that we feel instinctively as humans (saving our own above others, for example) that has nothing to do with anything religious. It's survival.

 

[kenny]

Out of respect for the overall community, I won't bother addressing all the stuff in your last post.
It would just deteriorate.

I have made my point related to the topic of this thread.

But go ahead and hammer me, and pile on.
Enjoy.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Another possible reason why the zoo officials did what they did: fear of a lawsuit if the child had been injured. Money is almost always the bottom line.
Another thought: Our 2 basic instincts are self-preservation and species preservation. In this instance, it was species preservation.

 

[Matata]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bron-taylor/the-value-of-a-gorilla_b_10214928.html

 

[arkieb1]

I think we should be glad the child was not killed as well. It's sad that the gorilla was killed, it is a really unfortunate accident. It's easy to blame the mother, but anyone that has had or has a 3 year old knows how fast and slippery they can be. Ultimately it's the zoos responsibility to ensure that the enclosures are safe spaces/places for the humans AND for the animals, this was a failure of duty of care for both IMHO.

 

[msop04]

Out of respect for the overall community, I won't bother addressing all the stuff in your last post.
It would just deteriorate.

I have made my point related to the topic of this thread.

But go ahead and hammer me, and pile on.
Enjoy.

No hammering or piling on from me... just making a point that everything is not "religious" is all.

 

[msop04]

Another possible reason why the zoo officials did what they did: fear of a lawsuit if the child had been injured. Money is almost always the bottom line.
Another thought: Our 2 basic instincts are self-preservation and species preservation. In this instance, it was species preservation.

+1
Money a HUGE factor in almost everything. And, yes, this was about instincts.

 

[msop04]

I think we should be glad the child was not killed as well. It's sad that the gorilla was killed, it is a really unfortunate accident. It's easy to blame the mother, but anyone that has had or has a 3 year old knows how fast and slippery they can be. Ultimately it's the zoos responsibility to ensure that the enclosures are safe spaces/places for the humans AND for the animals, this was a failure of duty of care for both IMHO.

arkie, this is exactly how I feel as well... I'm just so thankful that the child was able to escape unharmed.

 

[telephone89]

I think that in this situation, the correct decision was to shoot the gorilla. A child's life lost would have been detrimental to all - zoo keepers, bystanders, the parents, the zoo itself ($$$ and reputation), etc.

HOWEVER
It is the mothers fault for letting this situation happen in the first place. It should NEVER have gotten there. The child should not have been out of his mothers attention for MINUTES. If you cannot control your child, they should not be allowed anywhere unsupervised. If a dog who "couldn't be watched 100% of the time" attacked another dog (or child) that owner would be 100% responsible - your dog, your responsibility. Your child, your responsibility.

Why people continue to spawn and not take responsibility I cannot fathom.

 

[arkieb1]

This is the account doing the rounds on facebook posted by Deidre Lykins. I have no idea if it is accurate but she claims to have witnessed the whole thing her account......

Deidre Kykin's FB post;
"My family and I decided to go to the zoo yesterday after visiting my neice at Cincinnati Childrens hospital. For those of you that have already heard, there was a terrible accident there yesterday. And since every news media has covered this story, I don't feel bad telling our side. This was an accident! ! A terrible accident, but just that! My husband's voice is the voice talking to the child in one of the videos. I was taking a pic of the female gorilla, when my eldest son yells, "what is he doing? " I looked down, and to my surprise, there was a small child that had apparently, literally "flopped" over the railing, where there was then about 3 feet of ground that the child quickly crawled through! ! I assumed the woman next to me was the mother, getting ready to grab him until she says, "Whose kid is this? " None of us actually thought he'd go over the nearly 15 foot drop, but he was crawling so fast through the bushes before myself or husband could grab him, he went over! The crowed got a little frantic and the mother was calling for her son. Actually, just prior to him going over, but she couldn't see him crawling through the bushes! She said "He was right here! I took a pic and his hand was in my back pocket and then gone!" As she could find him nowhere, she lookes to my husband (already over the railing talking to the child) and asks, "Sir, is he wearing green shorts? " My husband reluctantly had to tell her yes, when she then nearly had a break down! They are both wanting to go over into the 15 foot drop, when I forbade my husband to do so, and attempted to calm the mother by calling 911 and assure her help was on the way. Neither my husband or the mother would have made that jump without breaking something! I wasn't leaving with my boys, because I didn't trust my husband not to jump in and the gorilla did just seem to be protective of the child. It wasn't until the gorilla became agitated because of the nosey, dramatic, helpless crowd; that the gorilla violently ran with the child! And it was very violent; although I think the gorilla was still trying to protect, we're taking a 400 lb gorilla throwing a 40 lb toddler around! It was horrific! The zoo responded very quickly, clearing the area and attempting to save both the child and the gorilla! The right choice was made. Thank God the child survived with non-life threatening, but serious injuries! This was an open exhibit! Which means the only thing separating you from the gorillas, is a 15 ish foot drop and a moat and some bushes! ! This mother was not negligent and the zoo did an awesome job handling the situation! Especially since that had never happened before! ! Thankful for the zoo and their attempts and my thoughts and prayers goes out to this boy, his mother and his family."

 

[msop04]

This is the account doing the rounds on facebook posted by Deidre Lykins. I have no idea if it is accurate but she claims to have witnessed the whole thing her account......

Deidre Kykin's FB post;
"My family and I decided to go to the zoo yesterday after visiting my neice at Cincinnati Childrens hospital. For those of you that have already heard, there was a terrible accident there yesterday. And since every news media has covered this story, I don't feel bad telling our side. This was an accident! ! A terrible accident, but just that! My husband's voice is the voice talking to the child in one of the videos. I was taking a pic of the female gorilla, when my eldest son yells, "what is he doing? " I looked down, and to my surprise, there was a small child that had apparently, literally "flopped" over the railing, where there was then about 3 feet of ground that the child quickly crawled through! ! I assumed the woman next to me was the mother, getting ready to grab him until she says, "Whose kid is this? " None of us actually thought he'd go over the nearly 15 foot drop, but he was crawling so fast through the bushes before myself or husband could grab him, he went over! The crowed got a little frantic and the mother was calling for her son. Actually, just prior to him going over, but she couldn't see him crawling through the bushes! She said "He was right here! I took a pic and his hand was in my back pocket and then gone!" As she could find him nowhere, she lookes to my husband (already over the railing talking to the child) and asks, "Sir, is he wearing green shorts? " My husband reluctantly had to tell her yes, when she then nearly had a break down! They are both wanting to go over into the 15 foot drop, when I forbade my husband to do so, and attempted to calm the mother by calling 911 and assure her help was on the way. Neither my husband or the mother would have made that jump without breaking something! I wasn't leaving with my boys, because I didn't trust my husband not to jump in and the gorilla did just seem to be protective of the child. It wasn't until the gorilla became agitated because of the nosey, dramatic, helpless crowd; that the gorilla violently ran with the child! And it was very violent; although I think the gorilla was still trying to protect, we're taking a 400 lb gorilla throwing a 40 lb toddler around! It was horrific! The zoo responded very quickly, clearing the area and attempting to save both the child and the gorilla! The right choice was made. Thank God the child survived with non-life threatening, but serious injuries! This was an open exhibit! Which means the only thing separating you from the gorillas, is a 15 ish foot drop and a moat and some bushes! ! This mother was not negligent and the zoo did an awesome job handling the situation! Especially since that had never happened before! ! Thankful for the zoo and their attempts and my thoughts and prayers goes out to this boy, his mother and his family."

I get chills just reading this account. That poor mother! [emoji17] Honestly, it could happen to any parent... no one can watch a child 100% of the time. Anyone who says they could and should is kidding themselves.

 

[monarch64]

I detest zoos and circuses. That's really all I can say on the matter because it breaks my heart on several levels just reading the story, seeing the video, and reading people's reactions. And here's what: each evolved species with higher intelligence than any other always THINKS they are the be-all, end-all. Humans as a species will never get it through their thick, still-evolving heads that there will be something else to come along and devour us all or at least that we are doomed to destroy ourselves through our gross overconsumption of every damn thing. For example, this links to an excerpt of Daniel Quinn's Ishmael:

https://drew-shelton-portfolio.wikispaces.com/file/view/The+Origin+of+the+Jellyfish+(from+Ishmael+by+Daniel+Quinn).pdf

If only animals could talk. I wonder what they'd have to say about the way "God" designed everything to work out so great for humans.

Regardless of how you feel about it, humans have the upper hand compared to all the other animals. Would you rather humans be lower on the food chain? I guess I'm confused by what seem to be anger and sarcasm in the above bolded lines. The fact that we can think and reason at all puts us higher than any other known species... well, ever.

What action do you feel would have been more appropriate, monarch? I'm not being snarky, I sincerely want to know how you feel killing the animal was the wrong thing to do in this situation.

I never said I felt killing the animal was the wrong thing to do. Maybe re-read my post. What I said was, looking at the bigger picture, that I think zoos and circuses are bullshit. Tack horse and dog racing and everything else for human consumption and entertainment on there, too. And LOL "would I rather humans were lower on the food chain." No. I am speaking from a place of extreme privilege and I am acutely aware of that. I also make choices not to harm other living things that bleed and reproduce like I do. The zoo had no choice but to kill the poor gorilla in this case because the idiots in the crowd exacerbated the situation, like humans will do because they are idiots. Yes, I'm angry. I'm angry that humans treat each other and other beings like shit for their own benefit. Survival, my ass.

 

[arkieb1]

There is another account in the media from a different lady that was also at the enclosure and she said the same thing, that the mother of the child that went over had a baby in her arms a couple of other kids and she was not neglecting her son, he just got over there in the blink of an eye...

It's a very sad accident. The thing all zoos around the world should be looking at is preventing it from happening again. And I agree with many of the posters on here about animal rights issues as well, if you feel passionately about it then go and see animals in the wild or in large protected nature reserves, don't go to zoos and circuses.

 

[CJ2008]

But you know what...

If you go to the zoo or anywhere where you have more kids than you can keep control of then in a sense that is already being irresponsible.

It's not about blame, and hindsight is 20/20.

But if I'm holding 20 things in my hands and my kid gets away from me or my dog gets away from me and hurts someone I'm still responsible.

In the end the responsibility still falls on me if I go into a situation where I have more than I can handle to keep my kids/pets/whatever secure even though it may have a totally innocent mistake, poor planning, not realizing, etc. It could happen to any of us, but if you look at it cold, that's where the responsibility lies.

(aside from the zoo's - which should have put in place whatever safety measures were necessary to prevent this from happening. I think the zoo bears more responsibility, actually.)