Opinions on antique square-cut with only 30 facets

[Blue-Seeker]

Hi,
Please help shed some light on an estate stone I saw in a local store.

I posted about this stone in an earlier thread. I went back to look at this diamond again today, and I am completely mystified about what this stone's cut or origin could be. There are several very strange things about this square stone.

The details:

It is an estate stone that came out of an Art Deco era mounting. The mounting was beyond repair, and contained no other stones, according to the store owner.

The stone is 90 points, E color, VS2 clarity. No lab grading report; store-graded.

It is almost a perfect square.

It has a culet.

The stone's corners are not faceted on the table or the pavilion. The corner facets look like the stone labeled "old single cut" in this diagram I found on wikipedia. There are three step facets on the table and two step facets on the pavilion on each of the four sides of the stone.

It has the look of a square emerald or an asscher. But it only has 30 facets, to my counting: One table facet, four corner facets on the table, 12 step facets on the table, four corner facets on the pavilion, 8 step facets on the pavilion, one culet facet.

The corners are hidden beneath princess-style prongs. From what I can see, the corners are square, or have only a very small angle to them.

The stone is very bright in the center, with no dark or dead areas. It does have lots of colored flash, and bars of color, prism-like bars of color.

The stone's symmetry and polish are amazing. It looks like it was cut with a lot of skill and precision.

I can see the reflection of the culet in the stone at certain angles when the stone is moved under the microscope.

Why was the stone cut this way? Any ideas? Could this be an older table-cut or old single cut stone that was re-cut into a square emerald?

The owner wants $5775 for the stone alone. This price seems really high.

I could not get any decent photos with my cell phone camera. The owner may have some photos of this stone set in its current setting; he will check.

 

[Karl_K]

3c/2p square step cut
I would not be that unexpected for one to exist but to find one...wow
Cutters were playing with many different combinations in that time frame.
Would be interesting to see what gia would call it.
I would demand a gia report if I was going to buy it at that price.

 

[Gypsy]

Ditto the GIA report.

 

[Blue-Seeker]

Thank you, Karl and Gypsy. Good advice on the GIA report. I'm not sure what their response will be to that request. Given how sticky they've been on their prices, they'd probably increase the price if I requested a report.

Karl, the owner also said that he believed that the stone was a hybrid cut, and that hybrids were pretty typical of the time. He said he bought the ring from the original owner's family and that the ring had been ruined when it had to be cut off her finger. Kind of morbid. I'm curious about what effect the two large steps on the pavilion, rather than three smaller ones, and the unfaceted corners have on the stone's optics. Is this why it appears brighter than other step cut stones I've seen?

Gypsy, I took a look at my earlier thread and I just saw your suggestion that I negotiate with the owner instead of the salesperson. I am definitely going to do that, especially in light of what happened the first time I looked at this stone. When I was asking the owner about the history of the stone, it was clear he was willing to negotiate with me on the price, but the salesperson cut him off! It was subtle, but I caught it, and it made me not trust the salesperson. The owner is pleasant and laid back, very knowledgable, and not at all pushy. The salesperson I've been dealing with, not so much.

I like the stone for its quirks and its beauty. So if I could get it for the right price, I'd send it to GIA on my own, just to satisfy my own curiosity and for insurance purposes.

This negotiation process could be a long slog, but I'm in no hurry.

eta: I just found this http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Emerald-Diamond-1326983.asp to use as a comparison in negotiations. I really wouldn't be comfortable paying a whole lot more than $3,000 for this estate stone, given that it does not come with a grading report, and that at .90, it's close, but not that close, to the 1 carat mark. Would this be a reasonable offer?

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you, Karl and Gypsy. Good advice on the GIA report. I'm not sure what their response will be to that request. Given how sticky they've been on their prices, they'd probably increase the price if I requested a report.

Karl, the owner also said that he believed that the stone was a hybrid cut, and that hybrids were pretty typical of the time. He said he bought the ring from the original owner's family and that the ring had been ruined when it had to be cut off her finger. Kind of morbid. I'm curious about what effect the two large steps on the pavilion, rather than three smaller ones, and the unfaceted corners have on the stone's optics. Is this why it appears brighter than other step cut stones I've seen?

Gypsy, I took a look at my earlier thread and I just saw your suggestion that I negotiate with the owner instead of the salesperson. I am definitely going to do that, especially in light of what happened the first time I looked at this stone. When I was asking the owner about the history of the stone, it was clear he was willing to negotiate with me on the price, but the salesperson cut him off! It was subtle, but I caught it, and it made me not trust the salesperson. The owner is pleasant and laid back, very knowledgable, and not at all pushy. The salesperson I've been dealing with, not so much.

I like the stone for its quirks and its beauty. So if I could get it for the right price, I'd send it to GIA on my own, just to satisfy my own curiosity and for insurance purposes.

This negotiation process could be a long slog, but I'm in no hurry.

eta: I just found this http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Emerald-Diamond-1326983.asp to use as a comparison in negotiations. I really wouldn't be comfortable paying a whole lot more than $3,000 for this estate stone, given that it does not come with a grading report, and that at .90, it's close, but not that close, to the 1 carat mark. Would this be a reasonable offer?

Blueseeker, in that case I would tell the owner that the ONLY reason you are talking to them is because you had a good impression of HIM and that in the future you will only deal with him, or he will lose a customer as you don't care for the salesperson's aggressive style.

I WOULD SAY THAT ABSOLUTELY. It will help you a LOT.

I would say 4,000 with the understanding that if doesn't appraise out at an independent appraiser you can return it for a full money back return policy.

 

[kelpie]

could it be a french cut?

 

[Blue-Seeker]

Thank you, Karl and Gypsy. Good advice on the GIA report. I'm not sure what their response will be to that request. Given how sticky they've been on their prices, they'd probably increase the price if I requested a report.

Karl, the owner also said that he believed that the stone was a hybrid cut, and that hybrids were pretty typical of the time. He said he bought the ring from the original owner's family and that the ring had been ruined when it had to be cut off her finger. Kind of morbid. I'm curious about what effect the two large steps on the pavilion, rather than three smaller ones, and the unfaceted corners have on the stone's optics. Is this why it appears brighter than other step cut stones I've seen?

Gypsy, I took a look at my earlier thread and I just saw your suggestion that I negotiate with the owner instead of the salesperson. I am definitely going to do that, especially in light of what happened the first time I looked at this stone. When I was asking the owner about the history of the stone, it was clear he was willing to negotiate with me on the price, but the salesperson cut him off! It was subtle, but I caught it, and it made me not trust the salesperson. The owner is pleasant and laid back, very knowledgable, and not at all pushy. The salesperson I've been dealing with, not so much.

I like the stone for its quirks and its beauty. So if I could get it for the right price, I'd send it to GIA on my own, just to satisfy my own curiosity and for insurance purposes.

This negotiation process could be a long slog, but I'm in no hurry.

eta: I just found this http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Emerald-Diamond-1326983.asp to use as a comparison in negotiations. I really wouldn't be comfortable paying a whole lot more than $3,000 for this estate stone, given that it does not come with a grading report, and that at .90, it's close, but not that close, to the 1 carat mark. Would this be a reasonable offer?

Blueseeker, in that case I would tell the owner that the ONLY reason you are talking to them is because you had a good impression of HIM and that in the future you will only deal with him, or he will lose a customer as you don't care for the salesperson's aggressive style.

I WOULD SAY THAT ABSOLUTELY. It will help you a LOT.

I would say 4,000 with the understanding that if doesn't appraise out at an independent appraiser you can return it for a full money back return policy.

Thank you! I'm going to call and make an appointment to meet with the owner. I really like your suggestion about the final purchase being contingent on the results of an independent appraisal. But, based on Karl's comments, it sounds like it needs to be evaluated by an appraiser who has a fair amount of experience with antique diamonds, correct? The salesperson was using Rap prices to justify the pricing on this stone, which I didn't think was quite right either, in the case of antique diamonds, but that's just a hunch on my part.

 

[Blue-Seeker]

could it be a french cut?

Yes, I wondered about this, too, kelpie. It's got a more open center than modern-day asschers. So the center of the stone does look more like the photos I've seen of French and carre cut stones.

 

[Karl_K]

Nope its not a french cut.
While I would not call it a hybrid because it is all step cut the rest I agree with.

Diamond prices are based on RAP, there is a jump at .90 so the .81 comparison is off.
I would not pay that amount without a gia report.

There are people out there that specifically hunt these types of diamonds and the demand can be fairly high in the right places.

 

[Karl_K]

With no gia report I would start at 3k and see what they say.
If it was gia certed I would start at around 4k