opinions needed for HRD cert 2+ ct. rb

[Meandra]

Lorelei,

My disinclination to buy AGS certed diamonds is not because of my poor opinion of the AGS--on the contrary, I am aware of the fact that it is considered as one of the best labs around. But given the fact that even GIA is having a hard time over here, it would take me forever to explain it to the people here for insurance/other reasons. People know GIA here and deal with it, even though it is not as common as HRD. But I am sure that most have not even heard of AGS. I have never sold any jewelery until now, but if the need arises someday, I need to make sure that the stone would have a cert that would be recognized by any jeweler on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 10:34:19 AM
Author: Meandra

Lorelei,

My disinclination to buy AGS certed diamonds is not because of my poor opinion of the AGS--on the contrary, I am aware of the fact that it is considered as one of the best labs around. But given the fact that even GIA is having a hard time over here, it would take me forever to explain it to the people here for insurance/other reasons. People know GIA here and deal with it, even though it is not as common as HRD. But I am sure that most have not even heard of AGS. I have never sold any jewelery until now, but if the need arises someday, I need to make sure that the stone would have a cert that would be recognized by any jeweler on both sides of the Atlantic.

Ok, I see what you mean! Then in that case if you feel its preferable for your situation, stick to GIA.

 

[stone-cold11]

Buy from a vendor with a lifetime buyback policy like craftedbyinfinity (80%) or GOG (75%).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 3/31/2010 5:43:50 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/30/2010 5:56:58 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Lorelei, I know without a doubt that your advice is given with the best of intentions.

Also, if someone knew that what you call leakage was a bother to them, your methods would guard against it. But isn''t it possible what some people call leakage is attractive to other diamond lovers?

Especially if wee''re talking about leakage in stones graded EX cut grade by GIA.

From what I understand Meandra is going to be looking at stones in person.

That being the case, we agree that they eyes will be the final arbiter.

Why limit the choices, within GIA EX- I''d also consider GIA VG cut graded stones?

Wouldn''t the downsides of what people find objectionable within the grade be visible to the eye?

I can''t take that chance, I have seen for myself how I don''t find leakage attractive and have found that to be the experience of many others. Especially when considering the cut quality of other diamonds suggested by this jeweller, my job as I see it is to help the OP avoid badly cut stones to the best of my ability and as we have real limitations in doing this, the chart has been proved to be helpful in various cases. Personally I have seen enough GIA Excellents that aren''t well cut or VG''s that especially not being able to give this jeweller the benefit of the doubt where cut is concerned, I wouldn''t advocate relying purely on these cut grade labels. Yes there are proportion configurations outside of these ranges that can also produce a beautiful stone and also your preference of larger tables ia also accounted for as the advice was given that larger tabled stones can be an option.


If the OP was working with a trusted vendor then that could be an approach to work within GIA EX/ VG and rely on their advice only, as it is I have to assume from what I have seen that her jeweller isn''t maybe that bothered or knowledgeable about cut quality, I could be wrong but I doubt it.

It seems to me ANY advice one person gives to another is "taking a chance" to some degree.
When I asked my question before, that being- "Does everyone object to what you call leakage, in the amount that may be present in a diamond GIA graded "EX" cut grade?", it was a rhetorical question. The answer is a clear NO.
GIA used a massive number of actual diamonds, shown to actual people to create the EX cut grade.

I honestly believe that advising people not to trust the GIA EX cut grade is doing a disservice to consumers- especially if they are looking at stones in person..
Not that each consumer will love every diamond GIA gave the EX cut grade to- but if consumers consider stones graded "EX" cut grade by GIA they will NOT get a diamond considered badly cut by the trade at large.
It''s important to remember that taste plays a large role. By advising people to stay within the narrow parameters of the cheat sheet, they may very well miss the stones they might have picked if shown the range of GIA EX cut grade.
When I am showing clients diamonds, I try not to prejudice them by pushing what I like within GIA grading. IN this way, my goal is to allow the buyer to pick what they prefer, without coloring their judgment with my preferences

My experience, looking at thousands of actual diamonds, combined with personally showing people diamonds- is that there is a range of what people like.
Having looked at a large amount of GIA EX cut grade stones, I''ve never seen even one I''d consider a "train wreck".
Of course I loved some more than others.
In fact there have been many cases where I preferred a VG cut grade to anther stone graded EX.


Meandra- I can only speak to your experience with the local jeweler.
Lorelei may be correct- he may not be a "maven" on cut- but sticking with GIA grading ( or AGS if it was available) means you won''t buy a badly cut diamond.
I also believe that we should not judge this jeweler based on the fact he may not do everything as is recommended here.

I am very interested to see how many, and what type of contenders the local guy comes up with!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 2:42:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 3/31/2010 5:43:50 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/30/2010 5:56:58 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Lorelei, I know without a doubt that your advice is given with the best of intentions.

Also, if someone knew that what you call leakage was a bother to them, your methods would guard against it. But isn't it possible what some people call leakage is attractive to other diamond lovers?

Especially if wee're talking about leakage in stones graded EX cut grade by GIA.

From what I understand Meandra is going to be looking at stones in person.

That being the case, we agree that they eyes will be the final arbiter.

Why limit the choices, within GIA EX- I'd also consider GIA VG cut graded stones?

Wouldn't the downsides of what people find objectionable within the grade be visible to the eye?

I can't take that chance, I have seen for myself how I don't find leakage attractive and have found that to be the experience of many others. Especially when considering the cut quality of other diamonds suggested by this jeweller, my job as I see it is to help the OP avoid badly cut stones to the best of my ability and as we have real limitations in doing this, the chart has been proved to be helpful in various cases. Personally I have seen enough GIA Excellents that aren't well cut or VG's that especially not being able to give this jeweller the benefit of the doubt where cut is concerned, I wouldn't advocate relying purely on these cut grade labels. Yes there are proportion configurations outside of these ranges that can also produce a beautiful stone and also your preference of larger tables ia also accounted for as the advice was given that larger tabled stones can be an option.


If the OP was working with a trusted vendor then that could be an approach to work within GIA EX/ VG and rely on their advice only, as it is I have to assume from what I have seen that her jeweller isn't maybe that bothered or knowledgeable about cut quality, I could be wrong but I doubt it.

It seems to me ANY advice one person gives to another is 'taking a chance' to some degree.
When I asked my question before, that being- 'Does everyone object to what you call leakage, in the amount that may be present in a diamond GIA graded 'EX' cut grade?', it was a rhetorical question. The answer is a clear NO.
GIA used a massive number of actual diamonds, shown to actual people to create the EX cut grade.

I honestly believe that advising people not to trust the GIA EX cut grade is doing a disservice to consumers- especially if they are looking at stones in person..
Not that each consumer will love every diamond GIA gave the EX cut grade to- but if consumers consider stones graded 'EX' cut grade by GIA they will NOT get a diamond considered badly cut by the trade at large.
It's important to remember that taste plays a large role. By advising people to stay within the narrow parameters of the cheat sheet, they may very well miss the stones they might have picked if shown the range of GIA EX cut grade.
When I am showing clients diamonds, I try not to prejudice them by pushing what I like within GIA grading. IN this way, my goal is to allow the buyer to pick what they prefer, without coloring their judgment with my preferences

My experience, looking at thousands of actual diamonds, combined with personally showing people diamonds- is that there is a range of what people like.
Having looked at a large amount of GIA EX cut grade stones, I've never seen even one I'd consider a 'train wreck'.
Of course I loved some more than others.
In fact there have been many cases where I preferred a VG cut grade to anther stone graded EX.


Meandra- I can only speak to your experience with the local jeweler.
Lorelei may be correct- he may not be a 'maven' on cut- but sticking with GIA grading ( or AGS if it was available) means you won't buy a badly cut diamond.
I also believe that we should not judge this jeweler based on the fact he may not do everything as is recommended here.

I am very interested to see how many, and what type of contenders the local guy comes up with!

I disagree David, although there are some superb diamonds of both cut grades, unfortunately I have seen some GIA Ex/ VG myself that I wouldn't buy and have also seen some buyers here with GIA Excellent's showing distinct leakage which they were unhappy with. The trade at large might feel differently certainly but from my point of view when offering advice here, I would far prefer to give consumers advice that lessens the chance they are going to buy a diamond that they could be unhappy with. I will not advise someone to rely only on cut grade labels such as GIA Excellent and so on.

As for missing out on stones they might like due to the cheat sheet, thats the case in any situation and I am not worried about these hypothetical diamonds but guiding the buyer towards the best cut stone they can get bearing in mind their situation. Judging by the diamonds this local jeweller has suggested, I am not confident in his abilities to find a well cut diamond, especially as the OP has made it clear finding a well cut diamond matters to her. If our buyer said she wasn't concerned about cut quality so much then my advice could be different.

I think again we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Are there any photos depicting this problem Lorelei?
Basically what you are saying is that buyers should trust PS more than GIA.....

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 3:35:13 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Are there any photos depicting this problem Lorelei?

There was a thread on this recently that you started recently didn't you David?

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-leakage-bad.131051/


If you want to bump it up to further discuss it ( ask admin to reopen it for you) or start a new one go ahead, but it would be best to keep this poster's thread on track to discuss helping her with her options if you want to discuss leakage again.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 3:35:13 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Are there any photos depicting this problem Lorelei?
Basically what you are saying is that buyers should trust PS more than GIA.....

You know that is NOT what I am saying, lets please keep this posters thread focused on helping her.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Lorelei,
I am suggesting that the OP should have their jeweler show them GIA EX (and VG) cut graded stones without restriction- and that such stones will all be within the parameters that can safely be called well cut by the vast majority of trade experts.
Unless I'm reading incorrectly , your position is that the GIA cut grade includes badly cut stones due to "leakage"

ETA- I did look through the entire thread you referenced, and don;t see any photos showing negative effects of leakage in GIA graded EX cut grade stones.


I am not here trying to argue with anyone- but I honestly believe that the advice given contains elements that not assist the op in finding a stone, in Turkey, from their jeweler..

 

[cara]

David you should take this discussion on leakage and whatnot to another thread. Lorelei has clearly stated her advice and opinion to the OP, you have clearly stated your advice and opinion, but you continuing to question the validity and utility of Lorelei''s advice is just argumentative at this point.

If the OP wants some stricter standards to give her jeweler, even if this means limiting her options, she can at least start with the cheat sheet. If her jeweler can find nothing that meets it or she finds those stones don''t meet her taste, she can always relax or change her standards later.

If she wants a broader range of options with the accompanying challenges of weeding more desirable and less desirable stones from what is available, she can ask for any and all GIA EX/VG cut stones and hope that her jeweler finds some gems. Even you admit that there are more and less pleasing stones within those broad categories, and some people might prefer to let their eyes pick while others would prefer to narrow the criteria a bit more before trusting their eyes. (especially those with less eyeballing-diamonds experience - the jewelry store lighting and excitement can be deceiving!)

While someone at some point used the phrase ''train wreck'' to describe a badly cut stone, and you seem to be focusing on GIA''s Ex not being ''train wrecks'', I think that phrase was used for effect and not meant to be the literal requirement. Many people have higher aspirations than just avoiding ''train wrecks'' in their diamond purchases - they want stunners! And the OP cares about cut quality so some selectivity may be in order. Just food for thought.

 

[Meandra]

Ok, it is *way* past my bedtime, but I couldn''t resist the temptation. This is my current stone (more pics will follow if I can manage to put them up) and after doing some reading here, I think it''s a classic case of steep/deep. I haven''t cleaned it in ages, so my apologies for the grime.


In justice to my current stone, I must say that I really like it. I am not an expert, but to me it is a good performer--and possibly so *because* I am a lay person. So, ultimately I guess David is right in that aspect--numbers are not everything indeed..

But, I am also aware that I could have bought a bigger looking, and perhaps more sparkly ring with the money I paid for this stone. If this stone looks small because of the steep/deep syndrome, I definitely would not like my second one to have it. Hence my inclination to defer to cheat sheets and current obsession with numbers.

 

[Meandra]

Here is another pic. I shot them with the crappy camera on my cell phone, and I ain''t no photographer, so my images leave much to desire. sorry!

Needless to say, in real life, it looks tons better (to me).

 

[Rockdiamond]

thanks Meandra. Do you have the specs for that stone?
( sorry if they''re already posted)

Sorry to that such heated debate erupts in a quest by both Lorelei and I to assist you.
Which I know we are both doing.

The advice given by Lorelei is very common here on PS- in a sense, contradicting it is a risk ( especially given Lorelei''s sterling and well deserved reputation here on PS)- however I think you are best served hearing both sides.....

 

[Meandra]

This is the final pic. The other ones turned out to be too blurry when I cropped them to meet the jpeg limit here.

Let me repeat, once again, that I deeply appreciate--not to say enjoy-- *all* the comments of *all* the posters here. You guys rock! (pun intended

 

[Rockdiamond]

My grandma and grandpa were both from Ismir ( Smirna?)...so you can understand my curiosity about the jewelers, and diamonds you have in Turkey.
I hope to visit Turkey sooner rather than later....

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/31/2010 6:21:41 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
thanks Meandra. Do you have the specs for that stone?

( sorry if they''re already posted)


Sorry to that such heated debate erupts in a quest by both Lorelei and I to assist you.

Which I know we are both doing.


The advice given by Lorelei is very common here on PS- in a sense, contradicting it is a risk ( especially given Lorelei''s sterling and well deserved reputation here on PS)- however I think you are best served hearing both sides.....

Hi David,

Sorry, I just forgot to add the stats. Here they come:

7.44-7.48-4.80mm
1.70 ct.
depth: 64.3%
table: 55%
girdle: thin to thick, faceted
culet: none
polish: VG
Sym: VG
Clarity: VS1 (heh, I thought that it was VS2)

color: G
fluoro: none
comments: none
key to symbols: indented natural (2 of them, on the edge--otherwise perfect, and I really like that, ''cos it''s pretty much impossible to see for the likes of me)

I am very open to contrasting ideas here (and am all ears)--bring them on!

 

[cara]

Hearing both sides is different than rehashing a tedious and well-covered argument for the 100th time, and demanding pics from the other side to support their position. Its not that I don't find some merit to both points of view, but there has to be a way to express your point of view and acknowledge it differs from someone else's point of view without attacking the other point of view and escalating every thread in which a poster asks for help into another thread about whether or not GIA Ex-cut grade is the be all-end all of diamond cutting standards or asking people to prove leakage exists or whatever. Maybe I'm just too cranky for RT these days, but I prefer the friendlier ps, where the heated arguments over cut preferences were not conducted on random poster's threads asking for advice. But if the OP likes a good argument, I guess that's my problem.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Cara- and especially Lorelei-
I am truly sorry for any upset my posts may have caused.
I think that the highest purpose of PS is ultimately, assisting consumers.
My only defense for taking such a risk was in that I want to assist the OP.
It''s very difficult to directly contradict someone you like and respect- sorry if my tone or posts went too far.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 3/31/2010 6:38:31 PM
Author: Meandra

Date: 3/31/2010 6:21:41 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

thanks Meandra. Do you have the specs for that stone?


( sorry if they''re already posted)



Sorry to that such heated debate erupts in a quest by both Lorelei and I to assist you.


Which I know we are both doing.



The advice given by Lorelei is very common here on PS- in a sense, contradicting it is a risk ( especially given Lorelei''s sterling and well deserved reputation here on PS)- however I think you are best served hearing both sides.....

Hi David,


Sorry, I just forgot to add the stats. Here they come:


7.44-7.48-4.80mm

1.70 ct.

depth: 64.3%

table: 55%

girdle: thin to thick, faceted

culet: none

polish: VG

Sym: VG

Clarity: VS1 (heh, I thought that it was VS2)

color: G

fluoro: none

comments: none

key to symbols: indented natural (2 of them, on the edge--otherwise perfect, and I really like that, ''cos it''s pretty much impossible to see for the likes of me)


I am very open to contrasting ideas here (and am all ears)--bring them on!

Meandra- a common misunderstanding is equating Polish and Symmetry grades with a cut grade. ( I don''t know that you did, I''m just bringing it to your attention)
Although they are related, they are not the same thing.
In other words- a stone given VG/VG or EX/EX is no necessarily VG or EX cut grade.

In the case of your stone, I''m sure it looks beautiful- from your describing it.
The downside of the cut, which I can tell from the measurements is a high depth resulting in it looking a little small for it''s weight.
The upside is that your new 2 ct will look a lot bigger!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/31/2010 3:35:13 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Are there any photos depicting this problem Lorelei?
Basically what you are saying is that buyers should trust PS more than GIA.....

RD...here''s the problem
if i asked my 22 yr old daughter to purchase a diamond using her eyes then the odds are that she''ll bring back a crappy stone,b/c to her every stone will look like fireworks.

 

[Rockdiamond]

DF- the point I'm making is that if your daughter was shown only diamonds graded GIA EX there is no chance whatsoever she'd end up with a crappy stone.
She might pick a different stone that you would- but there is no way the stone could be classified as "crappy" in terms of cut if GIA graded it EX cut grade.

In fact, the variance within the GIA EX cut grade could be seen as a very good thing- since not everyone finds the same combination of proportions attractive.
That's a big reason I feel Meandra should not limit the jeweler he's working with