opinions needed for HRD cert 2+ ct. rb

[Meandra]

Hello,

I am the same newbie who recently posted the forum a question on a GIA certified rb 2ct. G VS2 diamond. I decided to start a new thread here, as my jeweler contacted me again for a different stone, today.

It comes with an HRD cert. (something that is found in abundance in this part of the world), which I am not really familiar with. My suspicion is that it''s a fairly reputable lab in Europe, but not known much on the other side of the Atlantic. That said, I am not a gemologist, and am not in a position to evaluate their grading policy (strict, lax..?) I did read a few things about them here, but I am not sure if those opinions are still valid (the industry is always open to new stuff, I guess, so things can change in time--get better/worse..)

Let me give you the stone''s stats:
shape: rb
carat: 2.21
color: H (white)
clarity: VS2
Cut proportions: VG
polish: VG
symmetry: EX
fluorescence: nil
measurements: 8.21-8.24-5.26
girdle: medium 4.5% faceted
culet: pointed
total depth: 63.9%
table width: 56%
crown height: 15.5% (35.7 deg)
Pavilion depth: 44.0% (41.3 deg)
length halves crown (alfa): 50%
length halves pavilion (beta): 80%
sum alfa + beta: 77.0 deg.
Price: $21.500

At the Diam Calc here, it says that this is good only if the price is good.
This is better--strictly price-wise-- than the former rb 2.0ct G VS2 one I was offered. That said, I am not familiar with HRD, so I don''t know what to compare it with.

After posting my initial question on the other diamond, I asked for quotes and received responses from a few vendors. But since this is Passover/Easter period, some of them asked me to wait for a bit to optimize their search. I am willing to do that. In the meantime, though, this has come up my way, and I have to say something to my jeweler.

Your opinions are *greatly* appreciated.

 

[stone-cold11]

Numbers are not promising.

HRD is on par with GIA/AGS on color and clarity grading in Europe but apparently not in the US.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/30/2010 8:44:36 AM
Author:Meandra

Hello,

I am the same newbie who recently posted the forum a question on a GIA certified rb 2ct. G VS2 diamond. I decided to start a new thread here, as my jeweler contacted me again for a different stone, today.

It comes with an HRD cert. (something that is found in abundance in this part of the world), which I am not really familiar with. My suspicion is that it's a fairly reputable lab in Europe, but not known much on the other side of the Atlantic. That said, I am not a gemologist, and am not in a position to evaluate their grading policy (strict, lax..?) I did read a few things about them here, but I am not sure if those opinions are still valid (the industry is always open to new stuff, I guess, so things can change in time--get better/worse..)

Let me give you the stone's stats:
shape: rb
carat: 2.21
color: H (white)
clarity: VS2
Cut proportions: VG
polish: VG
symmetry: EX
fluorescence: nil
measurements: 8.21-8.24-5.26
girdle: medium 4.5% faceted
culet: pointed
total depth: 63.9%
table width: 56%
crown height: 15.5% (35.7 deg)
Pavilion depth: 44.0% (41.3 deg)
length halves crown (alfa): 50%
length halves pavilion (beta): 80%
sum alfa + beta: 77.0 deg.
Price: $21.500

At the Diam Calc here, it says that this is good only if the price is good.
This is better--strictly price-wise-- than the former rb 2.0ct G VS2 one I was offered. That said, I am not familiar with HRD, so I don't know what to compare it with.

After posting my initial question on the other diamond, I asked for quotes and received responses from a few vendors. But since this is Passover/Easter period, some of them asked me to wait for a bit to optimize their search. I am willing to do that. In the meantime, though, this has come up my way, and I have to say something to my jeweler.

Your opinions are *greatly* appreciated.

Hi Meandra

Sorry, this diamond isn't well cut, its too deep, will look small for the weight and the crown and pavilion angles are what we call steep deep, it is possible the diamond will show light leakage which we don't want.

You have a great budget and can get something wonderful with it!!

Also HRD are a reputable lab, better known in Europe than the US.

 

[yssie]

Date: 3/30/2010 8:49:08 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
Numbers are not promising.

HRD is on par with GIA/AGS on color and clarity grading in Europe but apparently not in the US.

I had an unfortunate experience with an HRD SI2 last week in the US; I most definitely second this statement. On no planet was that stone a veritable GIA/AGS SI2.


The stone you''re looking at is steep/deep and faces up much smaller than it should. Keep looking.

 

[jgny]

Meandra,

No, you can do much better. I had the proverbial steep deep - check out my thread to see pics of a steep deep and associated light loss.

 

[Meandra]

Thank you all *so very much* for the great postings--this is all great info that I''ve been receiving here.

I did check the steep/deep stone pics (shudder) and the thread that''s related--it does seem like an awful combo, but particularly so to an educated customer--otherwise, I guess, as always, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder..

That said, I think I''d always prefer to be an educated customer, with possibly some luck helping me out on the way..

So, yes, I think I will reject this stone, too.

But, I also think that perhaps I should give my jeweler more details about my expectations at this point. I mean, he knows that I''m a fussy buyer in general and I''m pretty sure he would not want to turn me off (especially given the fact that I am a repeat customer, and my extended family has also done business with him. I guess at this point just asking him to find "something in the 2ct vicinity, G-H color VS1/VS2 coloring, with *good* stats on the GIA cert" will not cut it. That said, I looked up the tutorial here again, and could not come up with a list of acceptable cut proportions that I can just pass along to him and tell him to find me something along those lines. I''m sure such a list exists somewhere here.. That way, I would not have to play this wild goose chase with him every time he comes up with something..

 

[Meandra]

When I say "the list", I mean something that would be related to GIA or possibly HRD stats. There is no hope whatsoever here that I can find any AGS stones. Unless I buy on the web--and if I decide to buy something on the web, I''d rather buy something GIA certed.

 

[Lorelei]

HRD are fine as a lab so I wouldn't worry about that too much, below is a cheat sheet some of us use to find a well cut round, bear in mind other proportion combos outside of these ranges can also produce a great looking diamond, but these proportions give you a base of reference.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

From expert John Pollard.

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

You can also use the Holloway Cut Advisor, see which diamonds score below 2, those are the ones to concentrate on.

 

[yssie]

Okay.. I'll bite. Here's what I PERSONALLY would consider ( based on my limited experiences hounding the local jewellers):

table 52-58
depth 59-63
P 40.6 - C 34.5-36 w/ images necessary for the extremes
P 40.8 - C 33-35.5 w/images for the extremes
P 41 - C 32.5-34.5 w/images for the extremes
P 41.2 - C 32.5-33.5 w/images
P 41.4 - C 32.5 w/images


The ranges Lorelei gave are a great starting point, but don't cling to those parametres - or my list - as lifelines, you may miss out on some beautiful stones

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/30/2010 1:19:57 PM
Author: Lorelei
HRD are fine as a lab so I wouldn''t worry about that too much, below is a cheat sheet some of us use to find a well cut round, bear in mind other proportion combos outside of these ranges can also produce a great looking diamond, but these proportions give you a base of reference.


depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%

table - 54- 57%

crown angle - 34- 35 degrees

pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees

girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc

polish and symmetry - very good and above


From expert John Pollard.[/b]

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

GIA ''EX'' in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).


You can also use the Holloway Cut Advisor, see which diamonds score below 2, those are the ones to concentrate on.

Thank you very much for sending me a cheat sheet Lorelei--that''s what I really needed!

I still haven''t got the hang of posting here--when I try to snip some text to make a comment, the whole thing disappears. And is it normal for me to see all these html codes here too? They look confusing!

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

uh.. I''m afraid I''m lost here.. I mean, am I supposed to look for angles outside of CA 34-35 (say 33) and PA outside of 40.6-41 (say 39)?

With that said, here''s a ''Cliff''s Notes'' for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

Umm.. Let me try to absorb that for a bit (thumping head on a wall)

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/30/2010 1:22:18 PM
Author: yssie
Okay.. I''ll bite. Here''s what I PERSONALLY would consider ( based on my limited experiences hounding the local jewellers):


table 52-58

depth 59-63

P 40.6 - C 34.5-36 w/ images necessary for the extremes

P 40.8 - C 33-35.5 w/images for the extremes

P 41 - C 32.5-34.5 w/images for the extremes

P 41.2 - C 32.5-33.5 w/images

P 41.4 - C 32.5 w/images



The ranges Lorelei gave are a great starting point, but don''t cling to those parametres - or my list - as lifelines, you may miss out on some beautiful stones

Yssie,

Many thanks for your cheat sheet too.

Your stats seems to differ a bit from Lorelei''s. For instance, you give the table range as 52-58. I remember reading somewhere (maybe here?) that when someone looks at a stone face up, what they actually perceive is the table, so a small table may make a stone smaller than it actually looks--or something like that. My current stone has 57% table, and even that looks a bit small to me, so wouldn''t, say 52% look tiny? I mean, granted, other numbers have to play up too, but I''m just trying to visualize it in my head, that''s all..

Also, visually, how different would your stats differ from Lorelei''s? Again, I am just trying to visualize all this stuff in my head.

 

[yssie]

.

 

[yssie]

They aren't really all that different.


Lorelei's cheat sheet lists the requirements for some of the superideal H&A brand lines (WF's ACA is the first that comes to mind, but there are others). BUT beautiful stones can have angles and proportions that fall outside those strict parametres - and outside the list I gave, as well, if you like the look of 60/60 types! I prefer a stone that shows more colour in more environments, so I go in for 35+ crowns and shallower pavilions, and I adore teeny tiny tables. Someone who wants bright white light return might prefer the opposite, and something smack in the middle will show a nice balance of characteristics and be a general crowd pleaser. It's all in what YOU prefer, and there's no "ideal" set of combinations - a bunch will work well together to produce a stunning stone

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/30/2010 2:08:10 PM
Author: Meandra

Date: 3/30/2010 1:22:18 PM
Author: yssie
Okay.. I'll bite. Here's what I PERSONALLY would consider ( based on my limited experiences hounding the local jewellers):


table 52-58

depth 59-63

P 40.6 - C 34.5-36 w/ images necessary for the extremes

P 40.8 - C 33-35.5 w/images for the extremes

P 41 - C 32.5-34.5 w/images for the extremes

P 41.2 - C 32.5-33.5 w/images

P 41.4 - C 32.5 w/images



The ranges Lorelei gave are a great starting point, but don't cling to those parametres - or my list - as lifelines, you may miss out on some beautiful stones

Yssie,

Many thanks for your cheat sheet too.

Your stats seems to differ a bit from Lorelei's. For instance, you give the table range as 52-58. I remember reading somewhere (maybe here?) that when someone looks at a stone face up, what they actually perceive is the table, so a small table may make a stone smaller than it actually looks--or something like that. My current stone has 57% table, and even that looks a bit small to me, so wouldn't, say 52% look tiny? I mean, granted, other numbers have to play up too, but I'm just trying to visualize it in my head, that's all..

Also, visually, how different would your stats differ from Lorelei's? Again, I am just trying to visualize all this stuff in my head.

Try to keep it simple Meandra, I say this because by the sound of it you don't have much to choose from in your country, what I would suggest initially is to stick to the numbers I gave above as Yssie's can also work for a different type of diamond, but for a more traditional well cut stone I would go for the ones I use - especially as your jeweller will have to locate some stones for you and well cut diamonds might be not so plentiful as in the US, there can also be issues with once you start going too far in some directions with pavilion angles as an example which you don't want.

But please bear in mind any numbers given are guides only again and that proportions outside of these ranges can also work well. Also concerning table sizes you can go up to 60% but I would suggest an upper limit of 61%. With pavilion angles try to keep those between 40.6 - 41 degrees to avoid potential issues especially as you are working with a jeweller that in all likelihood can't provide images such as Idealscope. And when you have the info on more diamonds, run the proportions through the cut advisor as well as posting them here so we can advise further.

 

[yssie]

Meandra - honestly, here's what I'd do.


Give your jeweller the list Lorelei gave you. Tell him it's your baseline. If he finds something that fits all those criteria, you have a guaranteed winner cut-wise. And if he comes up with a stone that you fall in love with that has numbers outside these ranges, keep an open mind

.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A few points from my perspective as a US dealer.
Although I have heard complimentary comments on HRD here , I have personal experience which clearly shows that HRD is not on par with GIA.
If you think about it, how could a lab report be good in Europe, but not in America?
The stone that GIA graded K/I1 was HRD graded I SI2.
From my experience a K color in America, is a K in Eupore as well......

I also find the cheat sheet to be too restrictive.
As long as you are looking in person, my suggestion would be to allow him to show you any diamonds graded EX or even VG cut grade by GIA.
You may find your taste lies within the cheat sheet parameters- however many people's taste will be for a "spreadier" diamond- one below 61 depth, and between 58-60% table.

 

[Meandra]

Lorelei and Yssie,

Yes, I think it''s simplest to stick to the table given by Lorelei at this point. I guess it may be taken as a bit conservative by experts, who can come up with different working stats combo, but for a lay person like me, I guess playing it safe at this point should be sufficient to avoid disasters.

Also, now that I''ve had time to read the numbers again (and again), I think I start to get it now. Even so, it will probably take me a while to interpret the numbers correctly.

Try to keep it simple Meandra, I say this because by the sound of it you don''t have much to choose from in your country

You know, in a way this is weird, as the jeweler stores here are choke full of diamonds, and Turkish jewelers--including mine--are d*** good in their craft (and oftentimes, much cheaper than the US, too). So, normally, I should be able to find some high end products pretty easily. But I don''t and--now, this is pure speculation on my part--this may be due to a couple of factors, including lack of consumer education--similar to the US. To most consumers here, as well as in other parts of the world, I guess, a diamond is a diamond is a ... So, they''d buy whatever they think would fit their budget, and that''s the end of the story. For those ''established'' families, heirlooms do exist, but usually, they are rosecuts, resembling what people would call as mogul-type jewelery overseas. I had to smile when I read some of the comments that are posted in some of the threads on this forum regarding rosecuts, as they are quite well known to the people over here. Up until my generation, what people meant by diamonds over here basically meant rosecuts. This may explain why searching for diamonds in a way I am doing now is comparatively rare over here.

Anyway, I didn''t mean to keep this so long. Many, many thanks for your help. Will definitely keep you posted as soon as I come up with other stats from online vendors/my jeweler


But please bear in mind any numbers given are guides only again and that proportions outside of these ranges can also work well. Also concerning table sizes you can go up to 60% but I would suggest an upper limit of 61%. With pavilion angles try to keep those between 40.6 - 41 degrees to avoid potential issues especially as you are working with a jeweller that in all likelihood can''t provide images such as Idealscope. And when you have the info on more diamonds, run the proportions through the cut advisor as well as posting them here so we can advise further.[/quote]

 

[yssie]

Date: 3/30/2010 3:40:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
A few points from my perspective as a US dealer.
Although I have heard complimentary comments on HRD here , I have personal experience which clearly shows that HRD is not on par with GIA.
If you think about it, how could a lab report be good in Europe, but not in America?
The stone that GIA graded K/I1 was HRD graded I SI2.
From my experience a K color in America, is a K in Eupore as well......

I also find the cheat sheet to be too restrictive.
As long as you are looking in person, my suggestion would be to allow him to show you any diamonds graded EX or even VG cut grade by GIA.
You may find your taste lies within the cheat sheet parameters- however many people's taste will be for a 'spreadier' diamond- one below 61 depth, and between 58-60% table.

David - I'm thinking it's not that the grading is "better" or "worse" than GIA at the source, but that the reject stones - the misgraded ones - are the only ones that wind up here in the US market because in Europe the properly graded HRD stones are afforded a certain respect and will sell. Why ship them all the way over here unless there's absolutely no market for those particular stones there, unless it's to take advantage of the fact that here in the US we have EGL-US, EGL-I, IGI, UGL and who knows what else... a veritable alphabet soup of lenient reporting agencies?


Whatever the reason, I agree that A) noone should be using any sorts of cheat sheets, tools, or technologies to the exclusion of all else, and B) the HRD SI2 that I saw last week (here in the US) was definitely more than 'slightly included' by GIA's or AGS's standards.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Yssie- if it wasn''t for the fact that I have spoken to Diagem at length about this- I would be unqualified in my warnings about HRD.
Meandra- this is really at the heart of your experience as well.
The market for diamonds and jewelry is so much larger, and more developed in the US, as compared to the EU in general.
The UK market has gotten far more sophisticated.
But generally speaking, the stores in France, Italy and the Netherlands I''ve been to had very limited selection of diamonds above .50ct- even 1.00ct was hard to find.

I have not been to Turkey ( yet, I''d love to go!) so I can not comment on the stores there, but the rules about diamond pricing will apply in Turkey without a doubt.
There may be categories where the jewelers there may be less expensive that those in the US- but not when it comes to diamonds, if you are considering internet pricing.

In the spirit of "Keeping it simple"- I would again stress my suggested tactics.
You are not going to have any "disasters" within GIA EX cut grade. You won''t love every stone in the grade as much as the next- but no train wrecks.
By freeing up the jeweler you''re working with, you may find that you choose something other than what you might expect based on it''s physical characteristics.
Restricting what you''ll look at based on a chart ( other than the GIA EX cut grade) might eliminate the very stone you like best.

Going back to the HRD issue....
Since the European market is not nearly as active on large stones, my opinion is that it''s not about the good stones staying in Europe, and the bad ones coming here- that would not make sense.
The stone I was referring to was cut in Belgium, and the cutter knew full well it was an I1,and lower than I color.
This is relatively common when cutters use non GIA labs IMO.
When I confront the cutter in this type of situation, they generally shrug their shoulders and say, "Hey I did not make the report up" or something like that.
The sad fact is, a lot of sellers get buyers to believe the gradings on reports they know to be inaccurate. This encourages many cutters to send marginal stones for marginal reports.
How many threads a week asking about an EGL "bargain" or trying to make some sort of parity with the non GIA labs....

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/30/2010 3:48:44 PM
Author: Meandra

Lorelei and Yssie,

Yes, I think it's simplest to stick to the table given by Lorelei at this point. I guess it may be taken as a bit conservative by experts, who can come up with different working stats combo, but for a lay person like me, I guess playing it safe at this point should be sufficient to avoid disasters.

I think using the charts as a guide would be definitely helpful bearing in mind your situation Meandra, be careful of so called cut grades also such as GIA Excellent as some can show definite light leakage which you don't want, use the guidelines as above and also the Holloway Cut Advisor I linked earlier to check out your choices but ultimately let your eyes guide you and compare as many diamonds as you can.

 

[yssie]

Meandra, I hope you don't mind if I go a bit off topic for a minute?

David - you make it sound as thought the european market is ripe for the picking - if so, why has the powerhouse that is GIA not yet seized it? This is what I don't understand: so there's a smaller market for big stones, but there's some market - otherwise we wouldn't be discussin foreign grading, since everything above a certain size would just get shipped here automatically. Here in the US there's a market for GIA/AGS stones, and there's a market for EGL stones. Many people are happy with their EGL stones even knowing (or, admittedly, probably not) that a paper from GIA or AGS would not have had those same colour and clarity letters and numbers - but also knowing that the same budget would not have got them that same size. But there's also a market for GIA stones, with many, many people willingly choosing the harsher, more expensive grader because they want quality. If there's an open niche for 'quality' in a foreign market, why aren't we hearing "GIA is GOOD, GIA is GOD" there like we do here? I mean, they've got brochures and booklets and CDs and courses... they can certainly toot their own horns, they don't need a consumer fan-base to do it for them from the get-go..

My point is that natural market forces mean that if there's an open niche, someone will move to fill it and profit from it for as long as possible.. who's filling it?

Please note that I'm not judging anyone's qualifications. I'm trying to understand the politics

 

[jgny]

Meandra - if possible - try to buy an Idealscope. Best $ investment you will make before buying a diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Lorelei, I know without a doubt that your advice is given with the best of intentions.
Also, if someone knew that what you call leakage was a bother to them, your methods would guard against it. But isn't it possible what some people call leakage is attractive to other diamond lovers?
Especially if wee're talking about leakage in stones graded EX cut grade by GIA.
From what I understand Meandra is going to be looking at stones in person.
That being the case, we agree that they eyes will be the final arbiter.
Why limit the choices, within GIA EX- I'd also consider GIA VG cut graded stones?
Wouldn't the downsides of what people find objectionable within the grade be visible to the eye?

Yssie's questions are actually not off topic.
I really appreciate the opportunity to lean about how the Turkish jewelry market functions.
In this case, Meandra is asking a local jeweler to show colorless, or near colorless 2ct+ well cut stones. It's not all that easy for a jeweler in Ohio to round up more than a few 2ct stones.
Hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised and there will be a good selection.

From what I've observed personally, as well as what I have experienced professionally, the market for diamonds larger than 1carat is very limited throughout most of Europe.
Russia has recently seen a large rise in domestic sales of high end jewelry- as well as other costly items like LV bags or whatever.
But other places that support the high dollar accessory trade, like France, do not support a market for 1ct+ diamonds.
Personally, I believe this a cultural preference.
In the UK, diamonds are far more popular- including large ones.

I don't have current figures- but I suspect that the far east ( Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong), and a few Arab countries far surpass Europe on demand for large diamonds.
Hopefully others who may have latest numbers pop in.

GIA does have facilities all over the world. However, if you notice where they are located, much of Europe is missing.

They're in Antwerp- since it's a wholesale trading area.
Florence Italy ( that one surprised me)
Moscow, and London.
The rest are in Africa, and Asia.
Places like Bangkok, where they also have a GIA campus may have a strong domestic demand.

In any event, let's see how many stones Meandra's family jeweler comes up with- and hopefully look at them with an open mind.
Even those with HRD reports.

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/30/2010 5:40:39 PM
Author: jgny
Meandra - if possible - try to buy an Idealscope. Best $ investment you will make before buying a diamond.

I wish I could do that Jgny, but they don''t sell it over here. I''ve checked Amazon, and they don''t seem to sell it there too. Now, of course I could find it at its real source and get it posted overseas, but that will take time. Maybe I should find someone who''ll be traveling here shortly to bring one. I''ll look into that option.

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/30/2010 3:40:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
A few points from my perspective as a US dealer.

I also find the cheat sheet to be too restrictive.

As long as you are looking in person, my suggestion would be to allow him to show you any diamonds graded EX or even VG cut grade by GIA.

You may find your taste lies within the cheat sheet parameters- however many people''s taste will be for a ''spreadier'' diamond- one below 61 depth, and between 58-60% table.

David and all fellow posters,

David: That was a very interesting point you made there (along with other comments you made in your other posts here, but I can''t seem to combine them here--my bad

).

I asked for a cheat sheet because even though my jeweler comes up with nothing less than VG stats on the certs, the combined effect seems to fall below the standards of the PS''ers. My current stone is a GIA VG too--certified before the new grading system, so frankly I don''t know how it would fare if they were to appraise it again (though on the HCA here it does receive 0.8, which I guess makes it alright?). When I bought it here several years ago, my heart was set on finding an excellent grade stone--you see, I *was* aware of this website as well as others at the time too--but my jeweler told me that GIA certs are rare enough here (as opposed to HRDs), and asking for an excellent cut would be pushing my luck too far. Maybe he was right, as my D colored studs that I had bought from Chicago earlier were treated like aliens among most of the jewelers here. D-E-F colors were rare at the time--they still are, to some extent. Well, I had my wedding coming up, and this stone *did* look good-- it still does, I think-- and so that''s how I ended up with a VG instead of an EX and a G, instead of an F.

I think my main reason for a second ering is the fact that the current one does seem smaller than it is faceup. Pinpoint flashes that I am used to seeing in rosecuts are not something that I want in this new stone. I mean, they are good, but not a priority for me. So, my dream stone would be white, flashy looking pebble that looks the proper size, not smaller. Similar to my current one, I intend to get it mounted on a simple setting with four prongs--just so that it speaks on its own.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/30/2010 5:56:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Lorelei, I know without a doubt that your advice is given with the best of intentions.
Also, if someone knew that what you call leakage was a bother to them, your methods would guard against it. But isn't it possible what some people call leakage is attractive to other diamond lovers?
Especially if wee're talking about leakage in stones graded EX cut grade by GIA.
From what I understand Meandra is going to be looking at stones in person.
That being the case, we agree that they eyes will be the final arbiter.
Why limit the choices, within GIA EX- I'd also consider GIA VG cut graded stones?
Wouldn't the downsides of what people find objectionable within the grade be visible to the eye?

I can't take that chance, I have seen for myself how I don't find leakage attractive and have found that to be the experience of many others. Especially when considering the cut quality of other diamonds suggested by this jeweller, my job as I see it is to help the OP avoid badly cut stones to the best of my ability and as we have real limitations in doing this, the chart has been proved to be helpful in various cases. Personally I have seen enough GIA Excellents that aren't well cut or VG's that especially not being able to give this jeweller the benefit of the doubt where cut is concerned, I wouldn't advocate relying purely on these cut grade labels. Yes there are proportion configurations outside of these ranges that can also produce a beautiful stone and also your preference of larger tables ia also accounted for as the advice was given that larger tabled stones can be an option.

If the OP was working with a trusted vendor then that could be an approach to work within GIA EX/ VG and rely on their advice only, as it is I have to assume from what I have seen that her jeweller isn't maybe that bothered or knowledgeable about cut quality, I could be wrong but I doubt it.

 

[Meandra]

Hello there,

Traci from WF has sent me the following stones:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/Compare_Diamonds.aspx?idnos=2265910,1752925

They have impressive stats (at least, to my newbie eyes), but I wonder how they''d look in person. If I''d decide on getting stuff from overseas, it''d better be darn good(Otherwise I won''t hear the end of it in my family-yikes!!) Colorwise, I''d always pick G, but pricing and dimensions--remember my obsession with size here?--also require reflection (considering the shipping costs etc).

Opinions, pretty please?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 7:27:08 AM
Author: Meandra

Hello there,

Traci from WF has sent me the following stones:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/Compare_Diamonds.aspx?idnos=2265910,1752925

They have impressive stats (at least, to my newbie eyes), but I wonder how they'd look in person. If I'd decide on getting stuff from overseas, it'd better be darn good(Otherwise I won't hear the end of it in my family-yikes!!) Colorwise, I'd always pick G, but pricing and dimensions--remember my obsession with size here?--also require reflection (considering the shipping costs etc).

Opinions, pretty please?

Lets take a look....

Both have definite potential, I assume these aren't inventory diamonds so Traci would have to call them in for evaluation, check if this is the case as there could be costs incurred for doing so.

This one looks very nice, it is an H colour but the stone belongs to WF so all the info is provided,

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2252156.htm#

Another, check it is eyeclean if interested.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275579.htm

 

[Meandra]

Date: 3/31/2010 7:41:47 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/31/2010 7:27:08 AM


Lets take a look....


Both have definite potential, I assume these aren''t inventory diamonds so Traci would have to call them in for evaluation, check if this is the case as there could be costs incurred for doing so.


This one looks very nice, it is an H colour but the stone belongs to WF so all the info is provided,

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2252156.htm#

Another, check it is eyeclean if interested.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275579.htm

Lorelei, they are both beautiful stones, but one of them is AGS graded, and the other is SI--because of the market here, neither AGS nor SI would work for me.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/31/2010 8:19:33 AM
Author: Meandra

Date: 3/31/2010 7:41:47 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/31/2010 7:27:08 AM


Lets take a look....


Both have definite potential, I assume these aren't inventory diamonds so Traci would have to call them in for evaluation, check if this is the case as there could be costs incurred for doing so.


This one looks very nice, it is an H colour but the stone belongs to WF so all the info is provided,

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2252156.htm#

Another, check it is eyeclean if interested.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2275579.htm

Lorelei, they are both beautiful stones, but one of them is AGS graded, and the other is SI--because of the market here, neither AGS nor SI would work for me.

Meandra, AGS are the other top lab along with GIA, in fact some consider AGS cut grading to be preferable to GIA so you can go with an AGS graded stone in confidence! Almost all the top cut diamonds such as Whiteflash's top brand ACA and others have the AGS0 Platinum report.

If you would rather stick to VS clarity or above thats fine, but I would urge you to consider AGS graded diamonds. Read more on how the grading labs rank
here.