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Opinion on VVS2 diamond

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
Hello been reading this forum and finding great information for helping me find that perfect diamond. I originally was looking for VS1 I-color, as this range seems to be above the borderline of being eye clean. However, finding ideal proportions in this range was very limited. So I searched the next level up VVS2.

What do you think of the proportions of this diamond? I'm hoping this provides good light performance.

What is the price difference for typical VS1 to VVS2 upgrade?
This diamond is priced at $4100 USD + tax, is this decently priced or could I negotiate lower?

Thanks in advance


Shape Round
Carat 0.9
Cut Excellent
Color I
Clarity VVS2
Fluor Faint
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Table 57
Depth 61.8
L/W Ratio 1.00
Measurements 6.21x6.18x3.83mm
Crown Angle 34°
Pavilion Angle 41°
Girdle Med. - Sli. Thick Girdle %3.5
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,613
Hello been reading this forum and finding great information for helping me find that perfect diamond. I originally was looking for VS1 I-color, as this range seems to be above the borderline of being eye clean. However, finding ideal proportions in this range was very limited. So I searched the next level up VVS2.

What do you think of the proportions of this diamond? I'm hoping this provides good light performance.

What is the price difference for typical VS1 to VVS2 upgrade?
This diamond is priced at $4100 USD + tax, is this decently priced or could I negotiate lower?

Thanks in advance


Shape Round
Carat 0.9
Cut Excellent
Color I
Clarity VVS2
Fluor Faint
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Excellent
Table 57
Depth 61.8
L/W Ratio 1.00
Measurements 6.21x6.18x3.83mm
Crown Angle 34°
Pavilion Angle 41°
Girdle Med. - Sli. Thick Girdle %3.5
Is this a gia graded stone? I would strongly consider dropping to an SI1 that's eye clean. You'll be able to get a bigger stone (or at least more choices), and won't be able to see any difference with the naked eye. What is your preferred budget?
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
Is this a gia graded stone? I would strongly consider dropping to an SI1 that's eye clean. You'll be able to get a bigger stone (or at least more choices), and won't be able to see any difference with the naked eye. What is your preferred budget?
Yup, the mentioned diamond is GIA graded. I have looked at SI1 and VS2 clarity stones, under a microscope, I was able to see the obvious inclusions. With VS1 it seemed harder to see, which is why I started with this clarity. I wish I didn't look under a microscope, as I agree you may find some SI1 that is eye clean. Budget wise, whatever gives me the best cut, as I read cut is the most important to give the optimal sparkle. I weeded out a few stones, and this one is HCA = 1.4.

There's no H&A/ ASET/ Idealscope image for this diamond (being under 1ct), so just wanted to confirm with the community if the cut and proportion on this stone is good. And whether the price is reasonable.

Thanks
Alan
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,613
Yup, the mentioned diamond is GIA graded. I have looked at SI1 and VS2 clarity stones, under a microscope, I was able to see the obvious inclusions. With VS1 it seemed harder to see, which is why I started with this clarity. I wish I didn't look under a microscope, as I agree you may find some SI1 that is eye clean. Budget wise, whatever gives me the best cut, as I read cut is the most important to give the optimal sparkle. I weeded out a few stones, and this one is HCA = 1.4.

There's no H&A/ ASET/ Idealscope image for this diamond (being under 1ct), so just wanted to confirm with the community if the cut and proportion on this stone is good. And whether the price is reasonable.

Thanks
Alan
The cut is good, but vvs is overkill for clarity and you pay extra for benefits that are invisible to the naked eye. Your GF won't be looking at the stone under a microscope, so I think it's important to remember that vvs really doesn't give you any advantage over an eye clean SI1 other than being more "mind clean".
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,438
The cut is good, but vvs is overkill for clarity and you pay extra for benefits that are invisible to the naked eye. Your GF won't be looking at the stone under a microscope, so I think it's important to remember that vvs really doesn't give you any advantage over an eye clean SI1 other than being more "mind clean".
This!
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
I discussed this with the jeweler, he found a 0.90 carat, VS1 I-color with following spec:

Measurement: 6.11 - 6.17 x 3.86 mm
Depth 62.90%
Table 55%
Crown Angle 36.5°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°

Based on spec, this VS1 has a smaller table, higher crown, making it deeper depth.

This VS1 HCA = 2.3. It's > 2 which theoretically is a dud.
The VVS2 HCA = 1.4 so light performance should theoretically be better.

I went to compare the two physically in person, to my surprise, both VS1 and VVS2 sparkle just as much that it was hard to tell any difference. In terms of H&A, the VVS2 had two smaller hearts, the VS1 hearts were all evenly proportioned. The VS1 crown looks whiter, and VVS2 crown looks darker.

So from this experience it seems, is it true that spec is just spec, take it with a grain of salt. Because even though this VS1 is not ideal cut proportion and fails the HCA score, in reality it seems just as good as the VVS2 one.
 

jp201845

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
279
Cut is King as we say on PS and Diamond specs are very important to stay within ideal range, and further evaluatiion with images for light performance. The HCA is very effective to use as a rejection tool. ...if you follow this regiment you will get a beautiful stone!
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,613
I discussed this with the jeweler, he found a 0.90 carat, VS1 I-color with following spec:

Measurement: 6.11 - 6.17 x 3.86 mm
Depth 62.90%
Table 55%
Crown Angle 36.5°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°

Based on spec, this VS1 has a smaller table, higher crown, making it deeper depth.

This VS1 HCA = 2.3. It's > 2 which theoretically is a dud.
The VVS2 HCA = 1.4 so light performance should theoretically be better.

I went to compare the two physically in person, to my surprise, both VS1 and VVS2 sparkle just as much that it was hard to tell any difference. In terms of H&A, the VVS2 had two smaller hearts, the VS1 hearts were all evenly proportioned. The VS1 crown looks whiter, and VVS2 crown looks darker.

So from this experience it seems, is it true that spec is just spec, take it with a grain of salt. Because even though this VS1 is not ideal cut proportion and fails the HCA score, in reality it seems just as good as the VVS2 one.
Everything looks good in jewelers lights. My big concern with this new one is that it's too deep. It will face up too small for its size, so you are paying for size you can't see.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,362
In regards to the "sparkle test", did you test both diamonds outside the jeweler's store lighting? If not, I'd encourage you to go back and test in different environments -- outside, under normal fluorescent office lighting, etc.

Keep in mind, the HCA is basing it's analysis & assumptions on rounded & averaged data from the GIA reports, and it's making an assumption on precision faceting as well. I bring this up because you elude the latter diamond had symmetrical H&A patterns going on. I'm not sure what you do or don't know about how to analyze & interpret H&A images, but simply having a "heart" present isn't the definition of a H&A stone.

Also, because the data on the reports are averaged, sometimes a stone may appear good but checks out bad.

There are a few people on this forum that specifically search out that 34/41 combo. The caveat being you need an ASET and/or SARIN report. The SARIN allows you to see the readings of each individual angle. The concern here is that when you hit a pavilion of 41.2 and greater, things go wonky.

Using limited information, look at how much better the 33/41 stone appears to rate:

Capture2.PNG

Using the same limited information, look at how the 36.5/40.6 ranks. As you can see it is very border line, but perhaps actual values or just your preferences are coming into play on what you like.

Capture.PNG

My 2 cents, but if you are really interested I'd spend the $50 and buy an ASET scope and test both stones prior to making a purchase decision.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,362
Looking for you an alternate stone, and I stumbled onto this. This is NOT a stone I am recommending you purchase, but rather wanted to point out very similar proportions -- 55 table, 36.5 crown, 40.8 pavilion, 63 depth, etc

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3974675.htm



In comparison, look at how this true H&A stone compares.

0.908ct I VS2 @ $5,280 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4109143.htm

55.2 table, 61.7 depth, 34.7 crown, 40.8 pavilion & 77 LGF

This baby is a complete sparkle bomb. Additionally, the cert is very clean for a VS2. I think it may pass your criteria.

But notice the difference in the H&A images, the ASET and also idealscope images. Then watch the videos. A total night & day difference.
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
Thanks @sledge! This makes me lean more towards the first diamond (VVS2). In fact, with the examples you showed, the bad proportion crown is brighter and ideal proportion crown is darker. This is what I observed too where my first diamond (VVS2) is darker crown, second diamond (VS1) is whiter crown. I guess that's not a flaw but the contrast of the arrows.

My other concern of the VVS2 is that when I look into the H&A scope, there are two hearts on opposite sides that are noticeably smaller than the other hearts. I don't know if this is an issue, but otherwise the hearts and arrows are complete shaped and visible. Besides H&A scope, the jeweler unfortunately did not have a ASET scope. Would it be a no-deal, or is HCA = 1.4 and cut is within ideal proportions sufficient?

I agree with @lovedogs that the clarity is overkill, unfortunately it took him weeks to find ideal proportions within VS2, VS1 clarity. The second diamond was what he came up with, but didn't have ideal proportions. I've also looked into JA and bluenile, but didn't find anything worthy in VS2, VS1 range that was under $4100. I've seen some SI stones, and can see inclusions with the naked eye, which is why I looked for VS2 and above. So would it seem 0.90ct VVS2 with ideal proportion at $4100 is a good deal?
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,852
Don't forget that the performance of stones in videos and pictures is entirely dependent on the lighting at the time of filming, so unless one has two stones side-by-side in the same lighting, it can be hard to conclusively determine which is better.
 

jp201845

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
279

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,362
Does your jeweler have access to online virtual inventory? I ask because of your statement about weeks to find a stone with ideal proportions and VS1+ clarity.

Last night when I wrote my initial post I jumped on RareCarat and found several stones within minutes that were worth consideration and had ideal proportions.

And I was being fairly picky to my own favored proportions and had the search parameters more strict than others would normally recommend.

Also I saw some H&A stones on Brian Gavin that fit your criteria as well for around the same money. But I do apologize, I initially read your budget as $4,700 and not $4,100. Some people have a little flex in their budgets and others are very firm. Either is fine as long as we know.

In regards to the 33/41 stone, you are indicating two hearts are visibly off. I'm not surposed a GIA stone doesn't meet the true definition of H&A as most won't but some are definitely worse than others. When you have major variances it tells us the faceting isn't as precise. This concerns me because of the possibility of actual 41.2+ pavilion angles I mentioned earlier.

If you insist on keeping your business with your local guy then for $50 you can order an ASET scope from AGS or David Atlas that will aide in your search as you learn your preferences in various diamond personalities.
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
It typically takes him a week or two to find a stone, and the ones he found are not listed in any retail jewelry on Rarecarat. So not sure if he gets it from a virtual inventory (it seems not).

Thanks @sledge, I appreciate all this info you provide as it's not easy to find consistent info online in learning about diamonds. You bring up a good point, I do suspect this GIA cert rounded the 34/41 angles which may explain the odd sized hearts. Maybe that's why price seems too low to be good.

By the way, just wondering what your criteria are for picking ideal proportions? I'll avoid certs that measure 41+ pavilion due to this possible rounding lesson. Do you recommend I open up to SI1 clarity, or stick with VS2/VS1? Budget wise, I don't mind paying a bit more for better cut. Having good light performance, and avoiding duds is my goal. Appreciate it :)
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,613
It typically takes him a week or two to find a stone, and the ones he found are not listed in any retail jewelry on Rarecarat. So not sure if he gets it from a virtual inventory (it seems not).

Thanks @sledge, I appreciate all this info you provide as it's not easy to find consistent info online in learning about diamonds. You bring up a good point, I do suspect this GIA cert rounded the 34/41 angles which may explain the odd sized hearts. Maybe that's why price seems too low to be good.

By the way, just wondering what your criteria are for picking ideal proportions? I'll avoid certs that measure 41+ pavilion due to this possible rounding lesson. Do you recommend I open up to SI1 clarity, or stick with VS2/VS1? Budget wise, I don't mind paying a bit more for better cut. Having good light performance, and avoiding duds is my goal. Appreciate it :)
We typically recommend people open themselves up to eye clean SI1, bc you'll have more choices. Are you open to buying online? We can find you something much better (and faster) than this local jeweler.

We recommend these parameters:
54-58 table
60-62.4 depth
34-35 crown
40.6-40.8 pavillion

Also, check any stone that falls into these parameters with the HCA calculator to make sure the angles are complementary. This is the procedure for GIA XXX. If you end up buying online and find an AGS 000, you usually don't need to do the above, especially if you go with one of the trusted vendors here.
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
We typically recommend people open themselves up to eye clean SI1, bc you'll have more choices. Are you open to buying online? We can find you something much better (and faster) than this local jeweler.

We recommend these parameters:
54-58 table
60-62.4 depth
34-35 crown
40.6-40.8 pavillion

Also, check any stone that falls into these parameters with the HCA calculator to make sure the angles are complementary. This is the procedure for GIA XXX. If you end up buying online and find an AGS 000, you usually don't need to do the above, especially if you go with one of the trusted vendors here.

Yes I'm open to buying online as it opens up to more selections. I'm from Canada so will need to be able to ship to here. Thanks!
 

jp201845

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
279
Yes I'm open to buying online as it opens up to more selections. I'm from Canada so will need to be able to ship to here. Thanks!
Contact Martin Sheffield from USA Certed Diamonds he is from Toronto Canada and has access to virtual inventory. He is recommended on this forum and is reputable. He is very knowledgeable and a pleasure to work with.
 

kmoro

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
1,076
@AlanDiamond - I am in Canada too and had a great sales experience with Whiteflash.

The great thing about buying an AGS diamond is that ideal light performance has been proven - no guess work. And with easy upgrade policies, if you’re starting a bit smaller because of super-ideal prices, it will be no problem to work up to the diamond of your dreams. If you are new to diamonds, it will be very hard for you to determine what diamond is better with your eyes - especially in multi-directional lighting. I find the difference is most noticeable in direct sunlight, where an ideal cut will throw off big blinding flashes of light.

This is a fun video (and I should probably start seeking commission for sharing it, lol)

 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
Also, check any stone that falls into these parameters with the HCA calculator to make sure the angles are complementary. This is the procedure for GIA XXX.
Hi lovedogs, if I find GIA XXX within these parameters, and HCA <2 is it almost guarantee the diamond has good light performance? I checked 3 major local jewelers in my area, and neither of them have ASET or IS scopes, or even know about them. They only have H&A scope. So wondering if I should spend $50 to buy the ASET scope?
 

lovedogs

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
9,613
Hi lovedogs, if I find GIA XXX within these parameters, and HCA <2 is it almost guarantee the diamond has good light performance? I checked 3 major local jewelers in my area, and neither of them have ASET or IS scopes, or even know about them. They only have H&A scope. So wondering if I should spend $50 to buy the ASET scope?
Yes, worth it to buy aset. But yes if in parameters and GIA XXX and HCA under 2 then it should be good. But not guaranteed
 

AlanDiamond

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
24
This will help you. Input the table %, crown and pavilion angle. You’ll see where the diamond scores for AGS and GIA categories. The AGS ideal is stricter. Many GIA “ideals” are far from ideal.
https://www.diamondscreener.com/cut-estimator/
Yes, worth it to buy aset. But yes if in parameters and GIA XXX and HCA under 2 then it should be good. But not guaranteed
Thanks, just ordered one :)

The VVS2 diamond I mentioned in OP, met all these: within parameters, GIA XXX, HCA = 1.8. The cut estimator showed within ideal range. However, disappointed the hearts have visible size variations (two hearts are smaller). I don't know how this will affect the stone, as GIA symmetry is X. Is it worth getting if price is right, or is it a total dud and must avoid?
 
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