Opinion on small Burmese Ruby pair....

[Arthur Kennedy]

Hi, gang. I was hoping to pick your brain on this small pair of heated rubies. The seller is asking $380 total. Does that sound like a pretty decent price overall? And what is your impression of the overall quality based off the pictures/video clip? The color looks nice to my eyes. But I'm a complete newbie when it comes to Rubies....


Gem type: Natural Ruby
Weight: 0.66 carat total weight of pair
Quantity: 2 pieces (1 Matched Pair)
Shape and Cutting Style: oval shape 1.412 length:width ratio, brilliant cut crown with step cut pavilion.
Measurements: 4.93 x 3.49 mm averaged between pair
(1.95 mm / 56.7% total depth)
Color: intense medium red
GIA GemSet reference
slpR 4/5
Medium-Med Light tone (4)
Intense-Vivid saturation (5)
slightly purplish Red
Clarity: GIA type-II VS
Treatment: Heated
Origin: Burma


Length x Width x Depth mm
dimensions of each stone obtained with A. D. Leverage guage:

4.92 x 3.47 x 1.89
4.93 x 3.51 x 2.00

 

[qubitasaurus]

You need to check it is heat only. No beryllium no residues.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

You need to check it is heat only. No beryllium no residues.

Yep! Heat only.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

But I think I've already decided to pass on this pair after all....

 

[Dreamer_D]

The price is pretty low makes me wonder.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

The price is pretty low makes me wonder.

Well, I was benefiting from a US conversion rate on the Canadian dollar (the rubies are $500 in Canadian funds, which translated to about $360 bucks in US currency--- plus $20 bucks for shipping). but still.

 

[LilAlex]

Well, I was benefiting from a US conversion rate on the Canadian dollar (the rubies are $500 in Canadian funds, which translated to about $360 bucks in US currency-

You're not benefiting from this. You can briefly benefit from an acute change in the value of the dollar relative to other currencies (usually much less than 10%) but in this instance the rubies are simply priced in the local currency -- like Thai baht, Swiss francs, etc. The fact that it's a smaller number in US dollars should not make it more attractive to US buyers; US dollars are just more valuable than Canadian dollars.

Appealing rubies in that price-point are almost invariable flux-filled or otherwise adulterated, imo, and at that price-point, the vendor is gambling that you will not invest more than the purchase cost to obtain reports. And if you did, "Oops, my bad -- they were sold to me as heat-only."

If you enjoy them, go for it -- with the understanding that, even at that petite size, they are likely more heavily treated than disclosed and that it is not cost-effective to achieve "mind-clarity."

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

You are 100% correct, good sir--- across the board. All things considered, these puppies aren't worth the gamble. I've decided to pass.


Ultimately, it would have been redundant to snag these even if they weren't heavily treated 'cuz I already have a nice little oval ruby pair only a little bit smaller from a VERY reliable source (the always excellent Yvonne at Cecilia Ray designs). Here is a picture of the little 4x3 mm ovals I bought from Yvonne several months ago that I had turned into a custom pair of 14 karat yellow gold bezel set studs:

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

You are 100% correct, good sir--- across the board. All things considered, these puppies aren't worth the gamble. I've decided to pass.


Ultimately, it would have been redundant to snag these even if they weren't heavily treated 'cuz I already have a nice little oval ruby pair only a little bit smaller from a VERY reliable source (the always excellent Yvonne at Cecilia Ray designs). Here is a picture of the little 4x3 mm ovals I bought from Yvonne several months ago that I had turned into a custom pair of 14 karat yellow gold bezel set studs:

And this picture of Yvonne's lil' rubies doesn't do 'em justice, honestly. My cell phone is kind of crappy, and I'm terrible at taking pictures and videos generally. This is a very nice pair at a reasonable price (and they are almost 5x4mm in total size thanks to the choice of bezel settings, which makes them nice 2nd piercing accent studs without breaking the bank).

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in. I really appreciate it! Once again, I always consider this forum an excellent resource for anything connected to gemstones. You guys and gals know your stuff.

 

[Avondale]

Appealing rubies in that price-point are almost invariable flux-filled

To be honest, this seems to be the case with a large number of rubies. It's as if between burmese and greenland rubies flux healing became part of "standard heat" in vendors' jargon. What is the stone's treatment? Heated. They don't even say "heat only" anymore, just heated, and leave you to presume there's nothing else when in fact if the stone had been examined for residues, residues would've been found.

Even well known and trusted PS vendors do this. And while we here preach about lab reports and treatments, greenland rubies out there are marketed by being "heated as a standard practice" with not a peep mentioned about all of them being flux healed.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I e noticed that too @Avondale and factor it into my thinking as a matter of course now.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

To be honest, this seems to be the case with a large number of rubies. It's as if between burmese and greenland rubies flux healing became part of "standard heat" in vendors' jargon. What is the stone's treatment? Heated. They don't even say "heat only" anymore, just heated, and leave you to presume there's nothing else when in fact if the stone had been examined for residues, residues would've been found.

Even well known and trusted PS vendors do this. And while we here preach about lab reports and treatments, greenland rubies out there are marketed by being "heated as a standard practice" with not a peep mentioned about all of them being flux healed.

That seems pretty dishonest to me--- especially if heating with residues isn't lasting and permanent. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that filling a ruby with lead or glass makes the Ruby unstable and more brittle (plus the Rubies become dull in fairly short order). Or am I confusing flux filling with lead/glass filling? Are these two separate things? Like I already mentioned, I'm a newbie when it comes to Rubies. Besides that little pair of prized rubies from Yvonne (Cecilia Ray designs), I also have a 6x4 mm pinkish red ruby from her that I absolutely treasure. It is more on the pink side, but still definitely qualifies as ruby. I love it! It looks amazing in any lighting source. I'm currently in the process of having it set into a bypass ring setting, in fact. So I'll be sure to post a picture once it's done.

 

[Avondale]

Or am I confusing flux filling with lead/glass filling?

You are. Which is precisely why it's important to use the term flux healing as opposed to lead glass filling. Calling it flux filling is, on one hand, misleading as to the essence of the treatment, and on the other, confusing, considering most people have only heard about glass filling. But then again, the intricacies of the treatment are not fully understood among PSers as well. When I was looking for information here couple years ago, it was very scarce, learned most of what I know from GIA seminars and papers. There's more now as it's been a topic of discussion more often.

In any case, I strongly advise you to learn this before you buy any more rubies. At the very least, you need to understand it in order to decide whether you're okay with it. If you ask around here, you'll get plenty of opinions that a flux healed ruby is a big no-no and you'll be left with the impression that the treatment is about as terrible to the value of the stone as beryllium or glass filling. But the reality is the industry is heading in a different direction.

Want an example?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1458424565/grace-ring-with-greenland-ruby-sapphire

"The center is a 5mm .82 carat, round ruby cabochon from Greenland Rubies, block chained (and comes with a card of authenticity from the supplier). (...) The pink sapphires and the ruby are heated, the demantoids are not."

This isn't a diss at the vendor. It's just where things are at this point across the board. Customers need to know and to decide whether they're okay with it, because if they're not, they need to look strictly at untreated stones, if their budget even allows it. Or, I guess, at antiques, from before the use of borax was discovered.

 

[Avondale]

if heating with residues isn't lasting and permanent.

Forgot to address this. It is, it's permanent. The stones are stable. The heat has the usual effect you'd expect, an improvement on colour and clarity. The healing element stabilises existing cracks and fractures by healing them shut. It's become this prevalent because both greenland and burmese material is heavily fractured.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

You are. Which is precisely why it's important to use the term flux healing as opposed to lead glass filling. Calling it flux filling is, on one hand, misleading as to the essence of the treatment, and on the other, confusing, considering most people have only heard about glass filling. But then again, the intricacies of the treatment are not fully understood among PSers as well. When I was looking for information here couple years ago, it was very scarce, learned most of what I know from GIA seminars and papers. There's more now as it's been a topic of discussion more often.

In any case, I strongly advise you to learn this before you buy any more rubies. At the very least, you need to understand it in order to decide whether you're okay with it. If you ask around here, you'll get plenty of opinions that a flux healed ruby is a big no-no and you'll be left with the impression that the treatment is about as terrible to the value of the stone as beryllium or glass filling. But the reality is the industry is heading in a different direction.

Want an example?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1458424565/grace-ring-with-greenland-ruby-sapphire

"The center is a 5mm .82 carat, round ruby cabochon from Greenland Rubies, block chained (and comes with a card of authenticity from the supplier). (...) The pink sapphires and the ruby are heated, the demantoids are not."

This isn't a diss at the vendor. It's just where things are at this point across the board. Customers need to know and to decide whether they're okay with it, because if they're not, they need to look strictly at untreated stones, if their budget even allows it. Or, I guess, at antiques, from before the use of borax was discovered.

That's actually a beautiful ring! And I saw some tiny Greenland Rubies recently that looked really nice (I think the stones were like 2 mm each) by another vendor I definitely trust--- desert Rose gems.

Thanks for the information on the difference between flux healing and glass filling. Very informative!

 

[Avondale]

That's actually a beautiful ring! And I saw some tiny Greenland Rubies recently that looked really nice

It is! And greenland rubies are fascinating, if you ask me. They're, what, 5 billion years old? And the entire planet is 6 billion years old? I think the numbers are close, even if I'm misremembering them.

For something to be part of this planet for so long, it's beyond imagining. And, naturally, when something is this old, it's kinda expected it would be cracked to pieces. If not for borax, we wouldn't be able to enjoy these stones at all.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

Forgot to address this. It is, it's permanent. The stones are stable. The heat has the usual effect you'd expect, an improvement on colour and clarity. The healing element stabilises existing cracks and fractures by healing them shut. It's become this prevalent because both greenland and burmese material is heavily fractured.

This is especially good to know. Nice! If the treatment is stable and permanent it sounds like I could definitely live with rubies that have undergone flux healing (untreated precious gemstones are definitely out of my budget, period).

Another question if you don't mind: do most reputable vendors offer a significant price decrease on Rubies that have undergone flux healing? And should I assume those little 4x3 mm rubies I got from Yvonne were flux healed? Like I mentioned, my picture doesn't do 'em justice. They are very bright and lively. And the clarity is eye-clean. The 6x4 oval Ruby (also from Yvonne at Cecilia Ray designs) is probably VS clarity-wise, but incredibly vibrant and beautiful. I guess I should ask her, eh?

Anyway, if this is where the industry is heading--- and the process really is stable and permanent--- I'm more than okay with Rubies with flux healing if they look as fantastic as the ones I currently own. I'm gonna have to shoot some messages off to Yvonne sometime today to get confirmation.

Thanks again! You clearly know your stuff.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

It is! And greenland rubies are fascinating, if you ask me. They're, what, 5 billion years old? And the entire planet is 6 billion years old? I think the numbers are close, even if I'm misremembering them.

For something to be part of this planet for so long, it's beyond imagining. And, naturally, when something is this old, it's kinda expected it would be cracked to pieces. If not for borax, we wouldn't be able to enjoy these stones at all.

That IS mind-blowing. 5 billion years old?? Damnnnnnn. I've seen some really nice bright faceted Greenland Rubies that were killer--- those puppies were exceptionally red.

My favorite rubies are from Burma. I love their glow. So considering my moderate budget--- and the fact that the material tends to be fractured--- making my peace with flux healing is a necessity.

Could you explain beryllium heating to me? I see that term a lot online. I never looked into it much because I automatically reject any stone that is beryllium heated. But now I'm curious about what it is. What is the difference between beryllium heating and flux healing?

 

[Avondale]

Another question if you don't mind: do most reputable vendors offer a significant price decrease on Rubies that have undergone flux healing?

Compared to heat only? Difficult to say. Obviously they're quite a bit cheaper compared to untreated stones. They should be a bit cheaper than heat only stones, but last time a vendor weighed in on the matter, this was what he said:

"The most popular price guide in the trade, shows Flux heated ruby in Good quality with slight to moderate effect decreasing price over heated alone by 0 to 5% and moderate to extensive healing 10 to 20%."

In my (very limited!) observation, when a vendor discloses residues, these rubies have lower prices compared to heat only ones. It's not a very dramatic difference, but it's definitely not pennies either.

But when everything is lumped under the "heat" label, this difference in price disappears, as you could easily imagine.

And should I assume those little 4x3 mm rubies I got from Yvonne were flux healed?

Not necessarily. I don't know where they came from, so... The newer stock burmese rubies, the ones coming from Mong Hsu, are generally heated with borax, to the point a PSer told me that one of the very highly respected PS vendors, forgot who, explained to her that they no longer dare claim any burmese ruby to be heat only because practically all of them have some, even if tiny and barely detectable, amount of resides. I've been seeing more and more thai rubies that are flux healed and it kinda makes sense when you think about it - Thailand is where the treatment was invented. But up until recently, at least, african rubies could be found as heat only.

In any case, if the rubies you have are of good clarity, they could very well be heat only, or if flux healed, then probably with only a very small amount of resides. Healed fractures restore their stability, but they don't become invisible. A ruby with moderate or significant residues doesn't have the same clarity.

Could you explain beryllium heating to me?

Beryllium adds a yellow component to corundum's colour. It changes the natural colour by introducing an element that wasn't there originally. So a beryllium treated ruby might not have been ruby at all, at the start, but some kind of (probably unattractive) fancy coloured sapphire.

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

It is! And greenland rubies are fascinating, if you ask me. They're, what, 5 billion years old? And the entire planet is 6 billion years old? I think the numbers are close, even if I'm misremembering them.

For something to be part of this planet for so long, it's beyond imagining. And, naturally, when something is this old, it's kinda expected it would be cracked to pieces. If not for borax, we wouldn't be able to enjoy these stones at all.

I just checked online and apparently Greenland rubies are 3 billion years old, which is still mind-boggling. I also saw an article from last year that said one of the big mines for Greenland rubies and pink sapphires closed. Damn. I wonder if that's going to make it more difficult for me to secure some tiny faceted Greenland Ruby specimens?

 

[Arthur Kennedy]

Compared to heat only? Difficult to say. Obviously they're quite a bit cheaper compared to untreated stones. They should be a bit cheaper than heat only stones, but last time a vendor weighed in on the matter, this was what he said:

"The most popular price guide in the trade, shows Flux heated ruby in Good quality with slight to moderate effect decreasing price over heated alone by 0 to 5% and moderate to extensive healing 10 to 20%."

In my (very limited!) observation, when a vendor discloses residues, these rubies have lower prices compared to heat only ones. It's not a very dramatic difference, but it's definitely not pennies either.

But when everything is lumped under the "heat" label, this difference in price disappears, as you could easily imagine.



Not necessarily. I don't know where they came from, so... The newer stock burmese rubies, the ones coming from Mong Hsu, are generally heated with borax, to the point a PSer told me that one of the very highly respected PS vendors, forgot who, explained to her that they no longer dare claim any burmese ruby to be heat only because practically all of them have some, even if tiny and barely detectable, amount of resides. I've been seeing more and more thai rubies that are flux healed and it kinda makes sense when you think about it - Thailand is where the treatment was invented. But up until recently, at least, african rubies could be found as heat only.

In any case, if the rubies you have are of good clarity, they could very well be heat only, or if flux healed, then probably with only a very small amount of resides. Healed fractures restore their stability, but they don't become invisible. A ruby with moderate or significant residues doesn't have the same clarity.



Beryllium adds a yellow component to corundum's colour. It changes the natural colour by introducing an element that wasn't there originally. So a beryllium treated ruby might not have been ruby at all, at the start, but some kind of (probably unattractive) fancy coloured sapphire.

Thanks so much for the info! This is very helpful. It sounds like my gut reaction to avoid beryllium heated stones was a wise one.


Re: Rubies from Africa: nice! I remember reading online that African and Thai rubies often have better clarity than rubies from Burma. Is that true? I recently bought a little pair of 5x3 mm red rubies from Mozambique that are quite beautiful at a nice price (VVS clarity). and I've certainly noticed that rubies from Mozambique are significantly less expensive than the ones from Burma, but they don't have the same glow. Probably because they aren't fluorescent?