Opinion on H&A?

[bottlecap]

I have been doing a lot of research lately on H&A, ACA and Amore (collectively "Branded Diamonds") diamonds.

Most jeweler who do not carry Branded diamonds believe that its an advertisement gimmick. They believe that even if the branded diamond give more brillance as it proclaims, the extra amount of brillance, compared to non-branded diamonds that possess excellent or ideal properties (e.g., cut, symmetry, polish, crown, pavilion, etc...) may be minimal or unnoticeable to a lay person.

In contrast, those who sell these Branded Diamond profess otherwise.

Could somebody in the PS community provide an unbiased opinion with regards to this matter? I would really like to hear you thoughts. Thanks.

 

[valeria101]

Bottlecap...

* First: I have no idea what the above posts is all about

Hope Leonid treats it right... Oh well. *

I agree with you, Bottlecap, that not all "ideal" and/or branded diamonds are either born or priced equally - and that more expensive may not always mean better. This may be wrong, but I am convinced no diamond can spell the name of it's brand

Surely, a better cut - fully proven so - deserves a premium, regardless of branding, as do higher color and clarity grades.


Here's my take on the diamond brand story...hoping this story is neither too long nor useless

In my view, diamond brands are not born equal either:

It really is up to you to decide what is cut quality worth and how much one more notch in cut precision and optical performance means to you. This exercise does require some amount of knowledge, and some brands would want you to just trust them for providing the best diamonds while others would prove that their 'selection' is worth something.

Some of these 'premium' cut diamonds are 10% more expensive than your average round with the same color & clarity & weight. Some are twice more expensive. I am not all that sure that such difference of premium truly reflect an increase in cut quality. It would probably be impossible to argue that a stone could be twice as great as one that got top grades on all the machinery and grading standards used to define 'ideal' cuts around here ! But who knows...

That (literally) selected diamonds deserve a bit of a premium may appear clearly once you try to select your own out of a 'list' of stones. You would need to ask for extra data (crown and pavilion angles at least) for each stone considered, than choose the best stone from those selected based on the angles... and so on. By the time you finish, there surely was some cost involved just because all the data and tests involved are not readily available for dozens of diamonds. If they were, the diamond trade would be a whole different story

It is said that about 2% of round diamonds sold have 'correct' proportions to give them a chance for good light return. Even if the number would be 10%, it would still take sorting through a bunch of stones until finding a good one. The more info you have on the stones, the more precise your selection, but also the bigger the cost of running it. This justifies paying something to the person who did this for you, in my opinion. The way cut diamonds are sold, the cost of 'selecting' stones is actually higher than just the cost of 'testing' - but this is a much longer story.

I should probably add that the sellers of branded diamonds themselves are different kinds of businesses, and this affects the respective premium more than the quality of the diamond cut itself. For example, some brand names mark a selection of fine cuts from hundreds of diamonds sold by cutters to retailers, and others designate diamonds cut on the seller’s more or less 'tight' specifications. These are two different business models and the premiums charged for the resulting 'brands' reflect hugely different operations and advertising costs. The brand names touted here are all of the first type - as far as I know.

At some point several Price scope threads were debating whether top H&A diamonds with excellent light return and all compare favorably with the much more expensive HOF and Eight Star branded stones. As far as I remember, Eight Stars were considered a bit better and HOF very similar. (a search for threads on "eight star" diamonds may show where this summary comes from).

This is just my conclusion on the matter, of course. You can surely do the same comparison of looks and prices while shopping.

 

[Tek]

If you can, go to a store which has non H&A, unbranded H&A, and branded H&A to view all of them side by side under the same light conditions. When I did this, I could tell I liked the H&A diamonds better than the non H&A diamonds. However, it was very difficult to determine the differences between an unbranded H&A and a branded H&A. I didn't get a chance to see an EightStar, but I did get a chance to see Whiteflash's A Cut Above series which were incredibly beautiful. I also got to see Hearts On Fire diamonds which were nice, but worth the incredible price premium. I ended up buying from DirtCheapDiamond's signature series because they had the size and price.

 

[niceice]

We were one of the original dealers for Hearts on Fire... And we were dealers for A Cut Above... And we were dealers for The Love Diamond... And The Aglaia Diamond or however it is spelled... And with due respect to all of them, we didn't feel that they offered anything above and beyond what we couuld offer in the form of an unbranded round brilliant ideal cut diamond with or without a crisp and complete Hearts & Arrows pattern - which at this point in time is little more than a reflection of the kite shape bezel main facets and the pavilion main facets from the lower half of the stone... It used to be a different animal, but we haven't seen what we consider to be "True Hearts & Arrows" for quite some time, everything we see today is more of the natural effect of facet alignment and reflection, the H&A of yesterday was PRECISION PLUS and the fact of the matter is that the internet killed that market by turning diamonds into more of a commodity based upon basic proportions, carat weight, color and clarity and yes we admit that we were part of that problem for those who may be thinking that...




The only time that a brand name truly adds value to the price of a diamond is when the product represented under that brand name is truly consistent and from what we've seen that is not usually the case... Brands start out with an extremely precise product and then the quality of the product begins to be sacrificed little by little as demand for the product grows to the point where all that remains of the original product is the reputation of the brand name itself and eventually that too begins to dwindle...




We prefer to hand select diamonds from a variety of diamond cutters, essentially "cherry picking" the best that each cutter has to offer, usually as it clears the laboratory from being graded and then selling it as a non-branded diamond... Although it could be successfully argued that the presence of our Nice Ice laser inscription on the girdle edge of the diamond makes it a "branded diamond" we suppose, but if we admitted that fact, we'd have to raise the price now wouldn't we?

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/11/2004 11:55:46 AM niceice wrote:


The only time that a brand name truly adds value to the price of a diamond is when the product represented under that brand name is truly consistent and from what we've seen that is not usually the case... Brands start out with an extremely precise product and then the quality of the product begins to be sacrificed little by little as demand for the product grows to the point where all that remains of the original product is the reputation of the brand name itself and eventually that too begins to dwindle...

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Couldn't the consistency be a result of the cutters pushing the limits as well?? I've seen Paul Antwerp comment on a Venus Infinity that was not "perfect". In that particular case, he pushed the limit and went a bit too far. Occassionally, some of the new ACA's don't rate as well, on the HCA. It is rather common knowledge here that Brian Gavin has been "tweaking" the cut. Couldn't those scores reflect Brian taking the risk to push the envelope?? Quite frankly, I'd be disappointed with any skilled artist/craftsman who was ever satisfied and didn't try to improve in some way.

To answer the original poster's question. I've seen both hand selected H&A's side by side with my ACA's. I see the performance difference. Do most folks?? I don't know. I don't care. I'm the one who's eyes the diamonds had to please. I'm the one that preferred the variation in this particular level of performance. It's like choosing a big, sweet, juicy apple. Red Delicious, Gala, Fuji?? Which do you choose?? The one that appeals most to your palate. Will you see a difference?? Only your eyes can say.

Branding does have one unique enhancement. When insuring the piece, some policies have a "like kind" statement. If you own an ACA or an 8* or a HOF or whatever, you can replace it with an ACA or an 8* or a HOF or whatever.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 3/11/2004 2:22:16 PM pqcollectibles wrote:




Branding does have one unique enhancement. When insuring the piece, some policies have a 'like kind' statement. If you own an ACA or an 8* or a HOF or whatever, you can replace it with an ACA or an 8* or a HOF or whatever.

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Not so fast.......not necessarily. "Like kind" refers to color/clarity/cut....it doesn't refer to branding, and I was told that by several insurance agents when I got my ACA. Most of them said I could press for it, but they couldn't say for sure that I'd ABSOLUTELY be able to guarantee replacing my ACA with another ACA.

For that reason, I chose to get an "agreed value" rider.....which eliminates the problem. I submitted my appraisal, and we agreed that dollar amount represents the value of my ring, and they will pay out that agreed amount in cash if I experience a loss. That way, *I* can control what it gets replaced with.

This is especially important for me because my stone is a very, VERY clean SI2. Replacing it with another SI2 might be "like kind" to THEM........but not really. Not if my inclusions are white/wispy, and others are dark/black.

 

[pqcollectibles]

I didn't check around with the jeweler's insurance companies other than to compare premiums. Since they were very competitive, I just added my jewelry to our Homeowner's as a rider. Guess I was wrong in thinking "like kind" meant the same brand.

Mea Culpa, AL. I bow to your experience in this matter.

 

[bottlecap]

Thanks everyone for your input! I have been grappling and trying to balance my emotional motives against my financial consideration associated with purchasing a Brand Diamond.

Although I was trying to make this survey an unbiased one from the stand point of lay-persons who may have bought a Brand Diamond, I am particularly moved and give great deference to the comments made by Niceice, a reputable business person who deals in both Brand Diamonds and non-Brand Diamonds. Thank you NiceIce.

 

[aljdewey]

Bottlecap......as the owner of a branded diamond (ACA), I'll answer this way.




When we bought my diamond, we didn't do so just for the sake of getting a name. We bought it because the elements of this stone best represented all the elements that were important to us. It had the most desirable cut proportions (among non-branded and branded stones), the color we wanted, the clarity that let us get a much larger stone with NO visual sacrifice, and the chance to work with an outstanding vendor.




I'd have been just as happy buying an unbranded stone of equal quality. I wasn't buying the name, I was buying the stone. It so happens that a higher percentage of this brand's stones fell within MY desired parameters. Today, three months later, one of my coworkers just bought from the same vendor (at my urging). His stone is not branded; rather, it was an expert selection stone. It doesn't have the H&A as mine does, but it's JUST as beautiful to the eye. It is truly STUNNING.




If someone filed off the branding on my stone tomorrow, it wouldn't make the stone any less beautiful than it is today......and that's why we bought it.......for its beauty, and it IS beautiful.




A final note: in the online environment, the branding really doesn't come at much of a premium. Many unbranded stones are just as expensive as the branded ones. The reason branded diamonds command such a high premium in the B&M stores is because they carry so few ideal stones to begin with. If you want an ideal in that setting, you pay through the nose for it. Also, keep in mind, it's usually the *name-conscious* who are shopping in the high-end malls in the first place, isn't it?

 

[Tek]

In the end though, it all boils down to what is visually preferred by your eyes or more importantly, the eyes of the one who will wear it everyday. We can all say, what has the best HCA scores or what has the best hearts and arrows or what as the best Ideal numbers and so on and so on, but it really is what you personally find visually captivating or riveting to your eyes. I truly think the best way to find out what it is you like is to go out and compare a bunch of diamonds under all lighting conditions. You might find you really like a more fiery look than a brilliant look or you might like a diamond with a larger table to a smaller more ideal one sized one.

I went to a local diamond broker and look at probably 10-15 diamonds. I continually picked out the same type of diamond out of the lot, so I pretty much stuck with those types. Take note of the numbers and proportions as you look at them so you have a reference.

Have fund shopping!

 

[bottlecap]

Hi Aljdewey/Tek:

Thanks again for sharing with me your thoughts.

This is my dilemma. Although whom ever I give the diamond will be appreciative (hopefully), I am unfortunately NOT buying for myself but for somebody else. The reason I asked for opinions of people who have a Branded Diamonds was to determine whether a lay person on the street would be able to notice the difference between Branded and non-Branded Diamonds.

I started out looking at excellent (GIA) and ideal (AGS) cut non-Branded Diamonds, but after discovering and reading about Branded Diamonds, I am swayed towards Branded Diamonds not because I noticed any difference relative to non-Branded Diamonds, but for the sake of knowing that I purchased a quality diamond. Yet I feel as though I am succumbing to the pressures of marketing tactics that prey on insecure, first-time buyers like myself.

If Branded Diamonds are truly a marketing gimmick, I don't want to fall into that trap. However, if Branded Diamonds do add a noticeable quality to the diamond, the extra money spent on the Brand Diamond is justifiable and legitimate.

 

[pqcollectibles]

It's like AL said. You cannot compare Net pricing to local B&M pricing.

Here's a link to the "Search by Cut Quality/Known HCA" search engine:

http://www.pricescope.com/sift.asp

Just enter your search criteria and you'll find all the well cut diamonds available that meet your specs. The search engine notes if the diamond is an H&A, AGS0, AGS1, etc proportions. You'll find comparable diamonds offered by various Vendors. Branded and unBranded H&A's are competitively priced. White Flash may be a bit higher on some diamonds. Good Old Gold may be a bit higher on some diamonds. Nice Ice may be a bit higher on some diamonds. Across the board, pricing tends to balance out.

 

[idealkim]

Actually, a branded H&A doesn't mean more expensive than the non-banded one.

I got a ACA at a price that no other non branded H&A can match. Competitive price, beautiful stone, peace of mind for novice like me.

More over, it came with Diamond kit.

 

[bottlecap]

Pqcollectibles:

Thank you for directing me to the search function on pricescope. I have conducted numerous searches on pricescope's search engine that culls and parses Brand Diamonds and non-Brand Diamonds having IDEAL or EXCELLENT properties together. From my experience with the search engine, I have in fact noticed a less than nominal difference in price between the two types of diamonds.

For your information, it would be irrelevant that I am comparing prices on the internet to B&M. Its the final price that governs the sale (assuming you are comparing two rings of similar GIA/AGS/OTHER reports). I am not making a comparison of internet prices to B&M prices. For that would be unrealistic. The cost associated with overhead would alone suggest to the lay person that internet prices are a better deal. What I am trying to determine is whether Brand Diamonds are merely a ploy used by advertisers to persuade unqualified, hesitant diamond consumers, like myself, to buy Brand Diamonds for the wrong reasons. If in fact the Brand Diamonds have any obvious and noticeably apparent properties absent in a non-Brand Diamond equivalent, Brand Diamonds should command a greater amount (whatever the difference may be) than a non-Branded Diamond.

Also, please understand that I am not a dealer or expert in this field. I am simply a consumer who wants to buy a diamond, but feels uncomfortable in a "new" place and situation, requesting the patience and guidance of those who know more than I do. Wasn't this forum created for this reason?

 

[bottlecap]

Hi IdealKim:

Could you tell me the place where you bought your ring? Whiteflash?...or would that be against the forum's policy?

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/12/2004 2:16:34 AM bottlecap wrote:

Pqcollectibles:

For your information, it would be irrelevant that I am comparing prices on the internet to B&M. Its the final price that governs the sale (assuming you are comparing two rings of similar GIA/AGS/OTHER reports). I am not making a comparison of internet prices to B&M prices. For that would be unrealistic. The cost associated with overhead would alone suggest to the lay person that internet prices are a better deal. What I am trying to determine is whether Brand Diamonds are merely a ploy used by advertisers to persuade unqualified, hesitant diamond consumers, like myself, to buy Brand Diamonds for the wrong reasons. If in fact the Brand Diamonds have any obvious and noticeably apparent properties absent in a non-Brand Diamond equivalent, Brand Diamonds should command a greater amount (whatever the difference may be) than a non-Branded Diamond.


I did not mean for my response to sound rude. If you took it that way, I apologize.
When I referred to B&M comparison, I was thinking of Eight Star, Lazare Kaplan, and other such Brands of diamonds. Visible properties will vary from diamond to diamond. How each one is cut. The alignment of minor facets. How the crown and pavillion angles compliment each other. Any really well cut diamond will be beautiful. Only your eyes can answer the question of what properties you choose to look for. Tek commented on viewing several diamonds in person and finding that diamonds with certain similar specs were more appealing to his/her eye. Specs help you screen out poor performers, beyond that it's the type of performance that appeals to your eye.


Also, please understand that I am not a dealer or expert in this field. I am simply a consumer who wants to buy a diamond, but feels uncomfortable in a 'new' place and situation, requesting the patience and guidance of those who know more than I do. Wasn't this forum created for this reason?

Exactly right!! I'm a consumer too. I spent time learning here, just like you are. Other folks, like myself, and experts helped me during my search. I searched thru old threads for more information on different topics. I spent time getting out and looking at diamonds in person locally to learn about well cut diamonds. I needed to know the color range I was comfortable with. What I could and could not tolerate in types and levels of inclusions. I also compared pricing before I finally decided to buy online. I spent time comparing different Vendors' return/refund/upgrade policies. I called and chatted with several. Every one was knowledgeable, friendly, informative, and helpful. No Vendor was ever pushy. No high pressure sales tactics at all. I found a Vendor I was comfortable working with, and previewed 2 of their diamonds before making my purchase decision. I honestly was trying to be helpful because I too have been in your shoes.
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[aljdewey]

Hi, Bottlecap: Yes, IdealKim bought an A Cut Above (ACA), as did I, and both of us purchased at Whiteflash (the provided of ACA stones).




Truth be told, my experience was the same as Kim's.......Whiteflash's branded diamond was priced far more competitively than similar non-branded stones I considered. It was no contest.




As Kim mentioned, a stone being branded doesn't mean that it costs more (in the online climate). If you compare two stone of equal make in the online world, there will actually be very little difference in price between branded and non-branded stones. It's the quality of the make that you should care about, regardless of whose name is on it.

 

[Tek]

I have seen an ACA stone in person when I was down in Houston. They are indeed very beautiful. You can't go wrong with them.

As for your question of whether a lay person can see the difference between a branded or non branded H&A? I personally don't think so. Most people have no idea about cut proportions, color, H&A, inclusion types...etc. Most people really just notice size.

 

[caratgirl]

I bought an unbranded H&A stone that was priced well below the branded ones, but absolutely it took me a long time (months) to find it. I guess it depends how much time and/or patience you have.

Also, some vendors (lots of photos and light tests and tutorials) on Pricescope provide unbranded H&A stones at a higher price than some of the other vendors, mainly because they have purchased these stones for their own inventory. It only makes sense that some of those costs have to be passed on to the consumer. That is not necessarily bad, because you don't have to guess whether or not you are getting a great H&A pattern, all the work has been done for you.

If you want to search through the less expensive vendors' databases, then you will absolutely take a risk that the H&A pattern may not be as perfect as it should be. Does this matter normally to the typical consumer's eye? Not really. As long as the angles are correct, the stone should look great.

I wasn't even looking for a H&A pattern when I was looking for my stone. I just required a great Bscope, along with a Sarin that looked great and a good HCA score. Then, I made sure that I loved the way the stone looked. The H&A pattern that was confirmed by my appraiser was just a bonus to me, since I do love to see the arrows in my stone in low light situations.

I also feel that if you find the vendor you are comfortable working with, they should be your eyes. I would never just have a stone drop shipped from the cutter to you.