opinion on buying ruby from top jewler in nyc?

[rubydream]

Dear everyone - I'm a true newbie. Because of the lack of knowledge, i'm leaning towards buying a natural ruby from world's top jewler. I suppose there will be a hefty premium, is it worth it?

Do you have any recommended jewler in nyc area?

Please kindly advise!!

 

[slksapphire]

Hmmm ... Where to start?

What is your budget?
Are you looking for a loose stone or a finished piece of jewelry?
Can you show us an example of the color you are seeking?
When you say natural ruby, what treatments are you willing to accept, if any?

 

[rubydream]

Hmmm ... Where to start?

What is your budget?
Are you looking for a loose stone or a finished piece of jewelry?
Can you show us an example of the color you are seeking?
When you say natural ruby, what treatments are you willing to accept, if any?

thank you for your reply....!!! my top budget is 100k, a ring, i'm hoping to get a 2 carat in my price range and pigeon blood is the color i'm looking for...

I'm aware of the embargo which made my search even harder.

is that a fair price for a 2 carat? possible a 3?

 

[slksapphire]

i am actually in the market for an unheated ruby, gem quality color, though i am about a year out from pulling the trigger. i went through a similar search for my sapphire and am happy to share what i have learned thus far.

1. if your priority is getting the highest quality stone you can get for your budget, stay away from high-end retailer jewelers (tiffany, graff, harry winston, etc). their rubies (and sapphires) are not necessarily of the highest quality. they typically try to maximize size, trading off treatments and color. there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but IF your goal is to get the highest quality untreated ruby, nyc retail in NOT the way to go.

2. outstanding unheated ruby is exceedingly rare, especially the finest specimens from burma. due to the embargo, you will typically be looking for vintage ruby in the secondary market. for gem-quality, unheated faceted ruby, you are looking at $50,000/ct to start. this is very accurate pricing from the hong kong gem fair about 2 weeks ago. note that corundum is denser than diamond and rubies are cut with more weight in the belly so a 2 ct ruby will be quite a bit smaller than a 2 ct diamond. there are somewhat better deals with star ruby and cabs if you are open to it.

3. your best bet for finding such a ruby will be to hook up with a highly reputable gem dealer and have him/her search on your behalf at gem fairs. unfortunately, richard wise recently retired ... i am unfamiliar with others in the u.s. and hope that others might chime in with recommendations. of course, you can't go wrong with richard hughes but he is now in thailand and you probably want to work with someone stateside.

4. any purchase MUST be contingent on receiving a satisfactory report from agl. for this kind of investment, i would insist upon a prestige report with grading and origin. rubies are some of the most highly treated gems and you want to make sure you know what you are paying for.

5. there are other sources of hi-end vintage ruby, namely the big auction houses (sothebys and christies) and 1stdibs, which aggregates various smaller dealers. but know that at least on 1stdibs, you will likely find more treated stones with less than ideal color.

this 3ct ring is $235,000. i am assuming it is unheated/untreated (easily confirmed as it comes with an agl report). the color looks lovely but for me, it's really hard to tell without seeing the stone in person.
http://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/more-rings/art-deco-burma-ruby-diamond-ring/id-j_85904/

this 6ct stone at $200,000 is also unheated. color is not as fine, hence the difference in price.
http://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/cluster-rings/burma-natural-ruby-diamond-ring/id-j_69518/

this 2ct burmese is untreated at about $90,000. don't love the prongs on the ring, but stone doesn't look bad.
http://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rings/engagement-rings/natural-pigeon-blood-burmese-ruby-diamond-ring/id-j_100716/

there are many others available ... run a search on "rings" and "ruby".

basically, you need to figure out what you want. VERY subtle differences in color can make huge difference in price. if you want to go bigger, you will essentially be relaxing your color requirement. you can still get something quite "nice" at $25,000/ct. and allowing heat will expand your choices even more.

finally, this kind of search will take some time ... if you want/need something soon, a high-end nyc jeweler may be your best bet (again, you'd be sacrificing ruby quality but something has to give).

hope this helps ...

eta: my ruby pricing is for the stone only. depending on what kind of setting you want, it will be at most $10,000, or a relatively small percentage of your total purchase.

 

[FrekeChild]

I'm curious, but who do you consider the top jeweler in NYC?

Just an FYI, pigeon blood is not really a name for a color, it's just something that some vendors throw around.

If I had a budget like that, I would probably go to Leon Mege, as he's made some pretty amazing ruby rings, some which can be seen here: https://leonmege.com/index.php/portfolio/statement-jewelry?start=18

He also has an amazing purple/violet sapphire ring that makes my heart beat fast...

Now, it sounds like you're looking for what everyone else is looking for. So lets continue with the questions:

1. Do you have a preference on clarity? Rubies are typically heated, and more invasively treated. Rubies tend to not be clean, sparkly gems, typically they are pretty cloudy. I'm assuming from your price point, you're seeking an unheated ruby.

2. Do you have a preference on shape? Most gemstones are cut into ovals or cushions. The more specific you are, the harder/more expensive the search will be.

7cts, $70k:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-48369-cushion-ruby-u3859/

4cts, $47k:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-52929-cushion-ruby-u4911/

3cts, $56k:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-48516-cushion-ruby-u3736/

9cts, $73k, poorest clarity of them:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-48462-cushion-ruby-u3861/


Now, it's not a ruby, but it's red and it is pretty awesome, a 10+ct Mahenge spinel, $140k. The Black Prince's Ruby is actually a red spinel:
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstones/spinel/spinel-10.46-carats.html

 

[slksapphire]

national gemstone has a few rubies (mostly under 2 ct for sale).

http://www.preciousgemstones.com/rubyfs.html

the reason i recommend that you look at the website is that each ruby has been graded by agl. if you look at the color grade (it says color/tone), you can get a sense of how subtle differences in color are. "1" is excellent/ideal (rarely if ever given). "2" is excellent. "3" and "4" are very good.

the difference between a "2" and "3" in terms of color grade is tens of thousands of dollars per carat.

also, note that value for unheated rubies is primarily set by color. i agree w frekechild that rubies tend to be pretty included, so you have to decide what you can live with.

 

[chrono]

I agree with the other posters that you have not shared your preference for a few things:
1. How little or how much treatment is acceptable? At this point, I would presume no treatment.
2. With your budget, I would also assume eye clean.
3. I am also assuming that you are flexible with shape and would be fine with an oval.

+1 that a high end jeweller such as Tiffany and etc. does not necessarily carry the best coloured gemstone.
+1 that slight nuances in colour makes a huge price difference. Pigeon's blood red isn't an exact colour so I would go by something such as "medium dark pure red with intense to vivid saturation".

As suggested, here are a few vendors that I would approach. They may not show what you are looking for but they will be able to find it for you.
http://wildsglobalminerals.com
http://www.preciousgemstones.com
http://www.africagems.com/burma-ruby1-5plus.html

 

[rubydream]

OMG I wrote a lot and the browser closed.

First of all, thank you thank you thank you all.

Let me start again, want to share my story with all of you!

I fall in love with Ruby when a HW sales person showed me a beautiful cushion cut 2.5ct Burmese ring appox 2 years ago. It was price at around 60k, when I went back and asked for it in a few months, it was sold! He then showed me a LONG/Skinny oval cut of similar weight (i'm not sure how to call it, but you get the idea. ), I refused the offer. I was hoping the embargo would be lifted, but it was renewed last year.

I have been on the haunt ever since.

I was showed a 4 carat ruby at the Graff, the most intense yet bright ruby that I have ever put on my fingers, it is also eye clear in my opinion. I enjoyed the ring very much until he reveals the price. Afterall, i'm glad I tried it on. Chances are, I would never buy a ring with that price tag.

It was in millions.

So here is how my dream ruby would be
Natural untreated being number 1
Color is then the most important characteristic that I'm looking for
slight Inclusion is ok as long as it is not cloudy
Size range would be 2-3 carats, I'm not crazy about size, as long as it is noticeable

FrekeChild -
This one is very beautiful in my opinion, but with heating. by reading the report, It is rated red and not vivid red, although I could not tell the difference from the picture. Maybe it has a brown undertone?
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/sapphires/c-15-rubies/p-48516-cushion-ruby-u3736/

slksapphire -
Website VERY HELPFUL!!
I was under the impression that the best stones are bought by the famous jewelers, thank you all for letting me know that i was wrong. You have opened my door to many new things to digest!

Chrono -
You are right-on!! Assumed everything right.
medium dark pure red with intense to vivid saturation is now my new definition of PB. Well put.

I have also heard that Mozambique ruby now can be rated as PB, and long ago it was only the Burmese, is that true?

Thank you all again!!!Some EYECANDIES to show my appreciation!!

 

[FrekeChild]

Just saw this:

http://www.rwwise.com/products/id|1037

 

[digdeep]

+1 on Freke's Find!! WOWZA!!

 

[slksapphire]

just to clarify, the high-end luxury jewelers like graff *can* have top colored stones, it's just that i think you will find them in the $1MM plus range. at the lower, $100,000-$500,000 range, they will trade size for color. just my own experience from looking ...

one of the most expensive jewels ever sold was about a 6 ct ruby for $3.3mm, or over $500k/ct.
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/r-s-bk-quality5.htm

 

[chrono]

The benefit of a Winza or Mozambique ruby is that most are very clean, hence no treatment is necessary. However, few Winza rubies can rival most Mogok (Burmese) rubies. That said, I caution you to buy the stone, and not the name (PB) and not the country of origin. There are good and bad stones from all locations. Even in Myanma or Burma, there are numerous mines, not only Mogok and Mongshu.

 

[deskjockey]

Just saw this:

http://www.rwwise.com/products/id|1037

 

[chrono]

I'd forgotten all about Nomad! Unfortunately, you cannot purchase directly unless you shop at their booth at a Gem Trade Show or have a Trade member inquire on your behalf (such as a jeweller). They will be in Switzerland in April but coming to Las Vegas in May.
http://www.gemsbynomads.com

 

[boerumbiddy]

I was sorely tempted by that R.W. Wise ruby, especially when he was running his half-price retirement sale. Is it still actually for sale, at full price? I filed it away as an inspiration against which all other rubies must be judged. It faces up rather small, but what an impact!

 

[LoversKites]

I feel like everyone has given you stellar advice and I don't have much to add, but I really enjoy reading everyone's posts and seeing how things turn out. The ruby on rwwise.com is magnificent.

 

[slksapphire]

i love that i am always learning something new here ...

chrono, i have never heard of nomad's before but OMG!!!!!! some of those stones are amazing. thank you for sharing.

 

[iLander]

I saw a FANTASTIC ruby at Cartier, for $85,000 last summer. It was Burmese unheated, untreated, largish stone about 9 mm each side, in a stunning ring setting. It was extraordinary. The salesman said it was pre-embargo Burmese, and they're happy to put everything in writing for you.

Go to Cartier, their colored stones are unbelievable. I saw sapphires of the perfect blue, stunning pinks. Emeralds that were amazing. Rubies of the most intense red that I've ever seen.

If I had that kind of budget, I would run to Cartier, and my heirs would thank me. A signed piece will hold it value through the decades. They have TONS of goodies in their flagship store on Fifth (Mr Cartier bought the building with a string of amazing natural pearls in the early 1900's). Their website has only common things, the one of a kind pieces are at the NYC store.

To double certify, I would walk it down Fifth Avenue to the American Gemological Labs and order the origin report. It will certify that Cartier is completely correct.

Seriously. Cartier.

 

[JewelFreak]

Talk about learning something! I didn't know that about Cartier, iLander. Very interesting.

I've never heard of Nomad's before either -- wow. The 20+ ct tsavorite on their site is magnificent. I'm dying of lust.

--- Laurie

 

[derbygal]

What wonderful advice from everyone; enjoyed reading it. I may not sleep tonight with visions of the Nomad's 20 ct Tsav in my mind. WOW!

 

[iLander]

Talk about learning something! I didn't know that about Cartier, iLander. Very interesting.

I've never heard of Nomad's before either -- wow. The 20+ ct tsavorite on their site is magnificent. I'm dying of lust.

--- Laurie

If you're ever in the vicinity, go to see it, it's like a museum, the pieces are so magnificent. I thought the sapphires were Tanzanite because the blue was so bright. It's unbelievable. Ask for the Colored Stones room, it's a maze in there. The CS salespeople are happy to have someone with some knowledge. I stopped in to check out a watch band for my tank (preloved, now loved even more) and I don't recommend buying a watch from them. All the customers sat in this room (beautiful moldings, lovely room, the whole place is a stunning mansion) and waited for these women behind a big desk to call them up. Like an old-fashioned bank counter. There were only 6 people ahead of me, but it took the 4 ladies a half hour to get through them. There were a couple of important-looking businessmen who were not happy waiting, I could tell they were thinking their next watch would be a Rolex. All that wait, and they didn't have the black lizard I wanted.

I considered using the restroom just to see what that was like.

Threadjack over.

 

[Dioptase]

I'd forgotten all about Nomad! Unfortunately, you cannot purchase directly unless you shop at their booth at a Gem Trade Show or have a Trade member inquire on your behalf (such as a jeweller). They will be in Switzerland in April but coming to Las Vegas in May.
http://www.gemsbynomads.com

Sorry, I jump in pretty late. We won't exhibit in JCK Las Vegas this year. Our next show will be HK June.

 

[wordie89]

Rubydream

Sounds like a lovely dilemma! Enjoying looking at all the pretty red stones.

Here's a ruby from Roger Dery that's 4+ carats. And he has a very nice looking one at about 3.5 cts...... don't know the price.



His site is www.spectralgems.net

Good luck and I'll continue checking to see progress.

 

[chrono]

Sorry, I jump in pretty late. We won't exhibit in JCK Las Vegas this year. Our next show will be HK June.

Me too. I hope Nomad will be back in the US circuit next year.

 

[JewelFreak]

I'd love to see their stones -- hope they do Vegas again soon. The buying power in Asia is higher, judging from the auction house jewelry sales & offerings there. I can understand their concentration on that.

--- Laurie

 

[Dioptase]

Sorry, I jump in pretty late. We won't exhibit in JCK Las Vegas this year. Our next show will be HK June.

Me too. I hope Nomad will be back in the US circuit next year.

Chrono, it's only for this year, we sure will be back in 2015. Also, we always exhibit in Tucson in January/February

 

[London]

Figured I'd piggy back my question in here since there is so much amazing info as to keep it all in one place.

I'm also looking for a ruby albeit my budget is a 3rd of yours

One thing I guess I'm not quite understanding is that many of the stones I've seen offered online only have a GRS report or a report from the company selling it. How are you suppose to infer true value when it's not from AGL? Are we suppose to just judge by description and color we see on our computer screen?

Would it make sense to say:
Diamond -->GIA as to CS-->AGL
Diamond-->EGL as to CS-->all other certs other than AGL

So if I was to purchase a GRS only certified stone would I send it to AGL myself and hope it comes back with a positive review? So its a gamble in a way?

If I purchase a stone with AGL cert already available am going to pay a premium because the work has already been done for me?

 

[chrono]

My personal view is that GRS is skewed in the favour of sellers, rather than buyers. They use terms that sound very attractive and is sure to draw in those who don't understand their colour descriptors. Worse yet, there is no explanation of how they categorize those colours. They also seemingly do not take tone into consideration. Unfortunately, most vendors expect the buyers to make the initial judgement by the description and colour on a computer screen only. Sometimes a video is provided. Beyond that, the gem MUST be viewed in person. So the pictures, description and video are the screening tools to narrow down the selection.

Diamond -->GIA/AGL as to CS-->AGL (Yes, for those in the US)
Diamond-->EGL as to CS-->all other certs other than AGL (Yes, for those in the US)

There are many other very highly reputable European labs such as SSEF, Gubelin and more.

Keep in mind that you are buying a ruby, not a piece of paper. Shop for a ruby that catches your eye and if it doesn't come with AGL paperwork, ask the vendor to send the stone to AGL for confirmation, and have the sale contingent on the result.

 

[London]

My personal view is that GRS is skewed in the favour of sellers, rather than buyers. They use terms that sound very attractive and is sure to draw in those who don't understand their colour descriptors. Worse yet, there is no explanation of how they categorize those colours. They also seemingly do not take tone into consideration. Unfortunately, most vendors expect the buyers to make the initial judgement by the description and colour on a computer screen only. Sometimes a video is provided. Beyond that, the gem MUST be viewed in person. So the pictures, description and video are the screening tools to narrow down the selection.

Diamond -->GIA/AGL as to CS-->AGL (Yes, for those in the US)
Diamond-->EGL as to CS-->all other certs other than AGL (Yes, for those in the US)

There are many other very highly reputable European labs such as SSEF, Gubelin and more.

Keep in mind that you are buying a ruby, not a piece of paper. Shop for a ruby that catches your eye and if it doesn't come with AGL paperwork, ask the vendor to send the stone to AGL for confirmation, and have the sale contingent on the result.

Wish AGL or another reputable cert was the standard like GIA with diamonds. It makes it difficult to narrow down what to look for when you dont have much to go from but the pic and dimensions. Do you know if the online gem vendors send the stone out to be certified by the lab of your choice just by request or does the customer pay for it? If the lab work comes back unsatisfactory I'm guessing the customer would be out the cost of the lab report...?

 

[minousbijoux]

Typically, you pay for the lab report, but make the sale contingent upon the stone/ring being as represented. If it comes back not as advertised, then the seller should reimburse you for the lab costs as well. Most will do this, some will not.