Online vendors and Sarin Reports

[nebula]

Hi,
I am a novice in this area but as i understand to get a better idea of the diamond cut for GIA certed diamond, the crown and pavillion angles are required and a Sarin report can supply this.
Do any of the online vendors provide sarin reports?
Is it true that the sarin report laso gives the AGS cut grade?
Is it possible to for an untrained eye (with a micrscope) to match the cert with a diamond (to confirm the diamond matches the cert). Where on the diamond is the number normally inscribed? Presumably the diamond doesnt have to loose to do this.

Thanks.
D

 

[JC]

nebula.... Most internet vendors work with suppliers (or wholesalers) that actually own and house the diamond in question. Whenever you contact the internet vendor to inquire about a particular diamond listed on their site they then contact the supplier to see if that diamond is available. The information that the internet vendor aquires for you completely depends on what the supplier can provide. Certain bits of information include, certificates, sarin reports, ideal-scope images, brilliance scope analysis, digital photos of the diamond, and an actual verbal description of the appearance of the diamond. Most suppliers can provide the certificates, sarin reports, and obviously a description of the diamond to us by phone, email, or fax. Usually, the diamonds that internet vendors can provide all of the above information for are actually held right at the internet vendors office. For example, we can provide color scans of the GIA or AGS reports, sarin reports, ideal-scope images, digital images and photos, as well as complete visual analysis of each of our Signature Series Collection diamonds for our customers. We can do this because we own and house the Signature Series Collection here at our office. So sometimes certain bits of information aren''t available for a diamond simply because the supplier can''t provide it. In these circumstances see if the internet vendor will be willing to have the diamond shipped out to an independant appraiser for you for complete evaluation or have the diamond shipped into their office so that they can provide you with the information that you require. You may be charged for this service, but at least you''ll find out the information that you need regarding the diamond. Hopefully that helps explain the whole process......

In regard to matching the certificate with the diamond. I would say that you would need to take the diamond along with the grading report into a trained professional to be properly examined to show that each do or do not match. Good luck...

 

[nebula]

Thanks,

if i undestand correctly then one would always need a professional appraiser to examine the diamond to match the cert and diamond. While his may be the case it does making a purchase online more complex and slightly defeats the purpose of a certificate. if the buyer could see for him/herself that the laser inscription matched the documentation then it would make the whole process easier and would give peace of mind.

 

[niceice]

Quite a few of us provide extremely detailed information for the diamonds which we sell and are able to do so because we have them physically in-house as opposed to merely republishing a virtual list from the diamond multiple listing services as so many virtual only dealers do... Many of us offer not only detailed Sarin DiaMension computerized proportions analysis in the format of the full page proportions analysis, but also online access to the full 3 dimensional virtual model of the diamond via the Sarin platform... In addition, several of us offer DiamCalc computerized ray tracing analysis of the diamond, Gem Ex Brilliance Scope light return analysis and some pretty in-depth clarity photographs. In addition to our own site, check out Good Old Gold, White Flash, and the signature collection of DirtCheapDiamonds. Happy Hunting!

 

[laney]

Date: 1/7/2005 1:17:45 PM
Author: nebula
Thanks,

if i undestand correctly then one would always need a professional appraiser to examine the diamond to match the cert and diamond. While his may be the case it does making a purchase online more complex and slightly defeats the purpose of a certificate. if the buyer could see for him/herself that the laser inscription matched the documentation then it would make the whole process easier and would give peace of mind.

I have to disagree here. If I bought a stone in a RETAIL store, I still would want it appraised by a third party.

If you are laying that much cash down (WHEREVER) it is still a good idea to get a professional to confirm. Even if it''s just for insurance purposes.

Just my .02

 

[WinkHPD]

In my thirty some years in the business, I have never had a walk in client request an independant third party confirm the accuracy of a sale.

I think part of it is how comfortable are you with your vendor. Did he show you the item involved under the microscope, explain fully what you were looking at, etc. etc.

While I agree with you in theory that it is a good idea, I certainly do not feel that my clients need to spend the money to have a stranger show them what I have already shown them. In dealing with the net I can certainly understand it is much more important, but still only a very small fraction of my clients actually do so. Jewelry, more than many other internet sales, is still primarily a relationship based business. If those relationships are good, the feeling that a second party is needed is rarely very strong. I never object when someone does want a second opinion, and often suggest it. I am just more often than not, surprised at how few do feel they need a second opinion.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I agree Wink.
I had one about a year ago - first I can remeber in 28 years.
We suggested he shop somewhere where he felt there was a better level of trust.

He came back and made a purchase a week later.

Sometimes (every year or two) we hear that someone has taken a ring elsewhere. When you have a good reputation - and you stamp your trade mark on your products - other appraisers call you and ask the grade and purchase price any way.

 

[Regular Guy]

And now, for his next trick, Garry will show you how he talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/7/2005 7:19:45 PM
Author: Regular Guy
And now, for his next trick, Garry will show you how he talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time!

Well done Ira

That is written primarily for Interet purchases. I see nothing wrong with that advice given that drop shipping can easily result in a person recieving a different diamond to the one they ordered - and that is before we consider the possability of recieving a non-warped diamond that has been ''gilded'' by a smooth talker.

I think it is reasonable for people to be able to make an assessment about the market level and ethics of any business they deal with. Wink does not strike me as someone who would allow his reputation to be tarnished for the sake of a quick sale. He would have to paddle too hard to get back to where he is now!!!

 

[nebula]

thanks for the comments, but getting back to my main question. if u take all the certs/sarin reports as being accurate, then as a consumer all you need to do is confirm the documentation matches the diamond u have. An can a non-professional match the diamond and the cert, looking at the GIA web site this would be quite easy for anyone to do as all your looking for a tiny number on the diamond.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/9/2005 9:38:56 AM
Author: nebula
thanks for the comments, but getting back to my main question. if u take all the certs/sarin reports as being accurate, then as a consumer all you need to do is confirm the documentation matches the diamond u have. An can a non-professional match the diamond and the cert, looking at the GIA web site this would be quite easy for anyone to do as all your looking for a tiny number on the diamond.

True enough but if you put the hard work into selecting a special super-ideal diamond then you need above average documentation for your insurance company.
Thats where a top rate independant appraiser who produces extremely detailed appraisals comes into play.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 1/9/2005 9:38:56 AM
Author: nebula
thanks for the comments, but getting back to my main question. if u take all the certs/sarin reports as being accurate, then as a consumer all you need to do is confirm the documentation matches the diamond u have. An can a non-professional match the diamond and the cert, looking at the GIA web site this would be quite easy for anyone to do as all your looking for a tiny number on the diamond.

Dear Nebula....

This really doesn''t work. I realize consumer want to try to do what the pros do, but this is like self diagnosing a sickness.

What are the varying factors.

Is it really a Sarin? or is it an OGI which may not be accurate?

What model Sarin is used?

How often is it cleaned and calibrated?

Is the machine up to date along with any nwe software improvements?

How well trained is the person doing the report? Does he interpret it correctly?

If you assume that everything you have is as correct and accurate as it can be, making a conclusion for a consumer is difficult, if not impossible.

While all the pros here really try to be sincere and helpful, there is only so much information that we can offer. The decision to have a non related independent is of course your decision which will provide the peace of mind and confidence that you seek.

Dave Atlas succinctly notes on his site about appraising that a stone must be seen. This is very true... Making conclusions or assumptions without seeing the stone is limited in nature, and while everyone who offers advice here does so with the best intentions, it''s your money and whether you feel comfortable with your own analysis is what you need to consider.



Rockdoc

 

[Richard Sherwood]

You''re going to need an appraisal for insurance anyway, so it would seem like there''s no better time to get one than at point- of-purchase, within the right-or-return period if anything should not check out to your satisfaction.

You should be able to verify a laser inscription number under a microscope yourself no problem. The hard part is verifying a cert, and translating the information on it.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 1/9/2005 3:27:30 PM
Author: RockDoc

or is it an OGI which may not be accurate?

This statement could hold equally true for both the older or lower cost Sarin models as the OGI.

OGI''s latest NovaScope is purported by them to have a greater camera resolution and accuracy than the Sarin Diamension. After using it for the past couple months, I''m convinced it''s at least as accurate.

Rich

 

[Regular Guy]

Rich,

If a consumer were hoping to select an appraiser, taking advantage of "reasonably" optimizing on the ability to double check the proportion data for the diamond...what sort of generic question should they use to do whatever shopping for an appraiser they might do.

Your task...should you choose to accept it...will be to have the question be scripted in a way that it will actually have some utility for as long as possible.

For example, if a consumer was willing to ask if they have measuring equipment from sarin, ogi or helium (a good start in my book, and clearly beyond what most appraisers already do!), should a follow up question be in the form of something like: "would the manufacturer certify quality control within 1/2 a degree," or some such. If this approach is just too geeky, you can say so, but I didn''t raise it after all.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I would ask them straight out, "What kind of instruments or procedures do you use for proportion measuring, and how accurate are they?"

Then listen carefully, with followup questions such as "Which type of OGI or Sarin machine are you using, and what is the range of error?".

 

[nebula]

I take your point about sarin reports and now am coming round to the idea that the a Certificates only use is to give you data on which to base your purchase, i.e. a spec sheet.
And an appraisal is the way to verify the what you actaully got is what you thought you bought.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/10/2005 6:27

2 AM
Author: nebula
I take your point about sarin reports and now am coming round to the idea that the a Certificates only use is to give you data on which to base your purchase, i.e. a spec sheet.

And an appraisal is the way to verify the what you actaully got is what you thought you bought.

Bingo! Well put.