Old Mine Cut....advise and does this seem like a fair price?

[gromit]

Hello Again,

Haven''t posted in a while, since my last run in with what turned out to be not a transitional cut diamond. After much thinking on whether to keep it, as it was still a lovely stone and at a good price, I finally decided to return it as I was really after a more ''antique'' stone rather than a modern brilliant. A saying from one of the other PS''s kept coming back to me...it is not a bargain if it is not what you want...

So, over the weekend I came across a lovely platinum ring set with an antique cushion/old mine cut diamond (these seem popular at the moment). Sorry no photos and didn''t even think about using my mobile camera .

Now for the specs... the diamond is 2.06ct, G-H in colour (low G, high H) and SI clarity. The setting is not original. The diamond is claw set with two stepped baguettes (N/S direction) on each side. The dealer bought the diamond loose and set it himself, hence the exact weight. The diamond also had a chip on the girdle which he has polished out. The diamond is the more square shape with a nice and tall crown (which I really love) and therefore very pillowy and the symmetry seemed reasonable. Slightly out of round on one side which may be where the chip had been?.

I am very happy with the colour, as it is very difficult to find these old cuts in the higher colours. My only concern is the clarity, as it has a carbon inclusion in the middle of the stone under the table and a couple of smaller ones to the side in the crown. But not visible to the naked eye (although, I intend to have another closer look to make sure I haven''t missed something). When louped the carbon inclusion under the table did reflect around the stone, so at some angles it looks awful and I was wondering if it might affect the brilliance/sparkle?. It did have great fire and looked nice and white (brilliance?) in the store, but I know that this can be deceptive. It also seemed slightly dead in the center, especially in direct sun but gave off some pretty big flashes.

The dealer quoted me $7,500, because of the carbon inclusion. Otherwise it would have been much more expensive. From what I have read and seen, and how difficult these are to find in a higher colour (I prefer a higher colour as it goes better with my skin tone) this seems reasonable. His original ticket price was $9,800 (would never have considered it at this price!).

It does face up around the same as a 1.5 RB but I don''t mind as it is a very unique profile/stone and it looks very elegant. Although not a great price I feel it is a reasonable price, but would value any feedback/opinions as I know in the current market that you can get some good deals out there. I also know that it is not worth as much when it is not in it''s original setting or maybe even when it has been touched up. But I don''t mind that the setting is not original as long as the stone is, and the setting is very simple which I prefer.

Thanks in advance and for listening.
gromit

ps: now he did say something which I thought was rather weird..."that carbon inclusions makes the stone ''glisten'' more"? Has anyone ever heard anything like this? I didn''t think black inclusions could make a diamond look better???? this has me worried as it sounds like really strong sales speak...but I have spoken to him on a number of occasions and he seems okay and never pushed me to buy anything. This just kinda threw me a bit...?

 

[Lorelei]

Hi gromit

If you love the diamond then make the sale final on it checking out to your satisfaction with an independant appraisal. You might have come across this tool you can use where you can find an appraiser in your area.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[Upgradable]

Gromit ~ congrats on continuing your quest for a vintage stone. They are my love and passion. It sounds like you''re doing your due diligence with this one. Color: good. Shape: pleasing. Girdle condition: addressed. As for the inclusion. You stated that it is eyeclean until strongly scrutinized. I''ve been interested to read the perspective of the experts here on small black inclusions vs. white inclusions. There is a strong feeling by some that a small black carbon inclusion is a better type in that even when reflected around the stone it tends to become lost in the scintillation. So, if it is not distracting to you, I wouldn''t worry about it.

The bigger red flag I hear in your post is the concern of a dead center. This is one of the potential danger of a handcut vintage stone. My suggestion is to take it into as many lighting conditions as you can to check and see if the center continues to show this characteristic. If so, no color, clarity, or beautiful shape can disguise it.

Continued luck in your search! And please........ POST PICTURES!!!!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 9/7/2009 8:48:52 AM
Author:gromit
Hello Again,

Haven't posted in a while, since my last run in with what turned out to be not a transitional cut diamond. After much thinking on whether to keep it, as it was still a lovely stone and at a good price, I finally decided to return it as I was really after a more 'antique' stone rather than a modern brilliant. A saying from one of the other PS's kept coming back to me...it is not a bargain if it is not what you want...

So, over the weekend I came across a lovely platinum ring set with an antique cushion/old mine cut diamond (these seem popular at the moment). Sorry no photos and didn't even think about using my mobile camera .

Now for the specs... the diamond is 2.06ct, G-H in colour (low G, high H) and SI clarity. The setting is not original. The diamond is claw set with two stepped baguettes (N/S direction) on each side. The dealer bought the diamond loose and set it himself, hence the exact weight. The diamond also had a chip on the girdle which he has polished out. The diamond is the more square shape with a nice and tall crown (which I really love) and therefore very pillowy and the symmetry seemed reasonable. Slightly out of round on one side which may be where the chip had been?.

I am very happy with the colour, as it is very difficult to find these old cuts in the higher colours. My only concern is the clarity, as it has a carbon inclusion in the middle of the stone under the table and a couple of smaller ones to the side in the crown. But not visible to the naked eye (although, I intend to have another closer look to make sure I haven't missed something). When louped the carbon inclusion under the table did reflect around the stone, so at some angles it looks awful and I was wondering if it might affect the brilliance/sparkle?. It did have great fire and looked nice and white (brilliance?) in the store, but I know that this can be deceptive. It also seemed slightly dead in the center, especially in direct sun but gave off some pretty big flashes.

The dealer quoted me $7,500, because of the carbon inclusion. Otherwise it would have been much more expensive. From what I have read and seen, and how difficult these are to find in a higher colour (I prefer a higher colour as it goes better with my skin tone) this seems reasonable. His original ticket price was $9,800 (would never have considered it at this price!).

It does face up around the same as a 1.5 RB but I don't mind as it is a very unique profile/stone and it looks very elegant. Although not a great price I feel it is a reasonable price, but would value any feedback/opinions as I know in the current market that you can get some good deals out there. I also know that it is not worth as much when it is not in it's original setting or maybe even when it has been touched up. But I don't mind that the setting is not original as long as the stone is, and the setting is very simple which I prefer.

Thanks in advance and for listening.
gromit

ps: now he did say something which I thought was rather weird...'that carbon inclusions makes the stone 'glisten' more'? Has anyone ever heard anything like this? I didn't think black inclusions could make a diamond look better???? this has me worried as it sounds like really strong sales speak...but I have spoken to him on a number of occasions and he seems okay and never pushed me to buy anything. This just kinda threw me a bit...?

Was this stone certified and from where?
A 2 ct OMC H SI1 if certed by GIA would cost significantly more than the price being offered.

It is more than likely this is a lower colour given the pricing, but a good appraisor can tell you this. You may find that you are satisfied with an I or J and that by GIA standards this is actually lower than you thought.

Also regarding carbon inclusions there is nothing positive about them. If the grade setting inclusions are black and under the middle of table I think that under many lighting conditions you will be able to see them. I never liked any SI1 stones that had black inclusions and these were GIA SI1s not EGL or another less strict appraisor or lab.

I just thought I'd throw another option at you http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6282/
If Jon at GOG doesn't have your preferred specs you can also ask him to cut one.

I love antique cuts but I love them even more when they are optimized like Jon has done in his signature line, so you get the antique chunky look but also get amazing light return using today's modern cutting techniques.

I would also browse through the stock at Oldworlddiamonds.com Adam is a great resource for finding these stones and his website can give you a good idea on pricing on these. I think its worth talking to him as well as he may have something in your range not listed on his website.

Good-luck,

CCL

 

[ericad]

I second what others have said about taking the stone to an independent appraiser to verify specs. With regards to the center of the stone, there could be a number of things going on here. It''s not uncommon for OMC''s to show a dark pattern in the center (maltese cross, windmill, etc.) and some people love that and others don''t. It''s certainly possible to find an antique stone that doesn''t have this effect, if it''s your preference. It could also be something different, like a dead spot in the center due to poor cut, which you obviously want to avoid.

To be honest, the price seems too low for a true G/H over 2 carats, so definitely have the specs confirmed so that you know what you''re getting and if the price is fair. But above all, did the stone speak to you? Do you feel head over heels in love with it? If not, it may not be the one. If so, have it appraised and go from there.

Good luck!

 

[gromit]

WOW!!! I am always amazed at the quick and great responses.

Lorelei - I do really love the stone, but it''s in my nature to obsess over little details

Upgradable - sorry no photos

CCL - the stone is not certified. This info was from the seller (yes, I know can''t trust him), so if I do buy it I will make it a condition to get it appraised. However, when I compared it to a J/K stone it was significantly whiter. Regarding the carbon inclusion, I think I will just have to have another look . I am located in the UK so prefer not to buy high value items internationally, as I get hit with a heftly customs fee. Although GOG''s cushions look amazing, I really wanted an antique OMC and therefore gather that you can be a bit more forgiving of faults in these old stones. I also checked the singlestone website, but didn''t find anything comparable.

Erica - I was hoping you might chime in. It did feel like it was just sitting there waiting for me...not overly brash...just gently sparkling. But it did look great once it got under the store lights. In regards to the center, now that I know what to look for ...windmills/kozibe effect...I will re-evaulate it. It did have a rather large culet, similar to Hest88''s stone (came across this in my research). Also forgot to check if it has the kozibe effect. If it''s a poor cut, does that mean you don''t get any of the effects and it will the center just be dull and no twinkle? Sorry to sound ingnorant, but haven''t seen that many OMC''s in larger sizes, and I have assumed that you can''t expect the performance of a RB. Maybe, I am just used to not seeing a darker center from looking at RBs. Glad to hear that the price is good, if it is what the seller says.

Thanks again!
gromit

 

[ericad]

Give me a sec and I will post a variety of pics that show kozibe as well as the "windmill" center effect I''m talking about. Just need to resize them...

 

[ericad]

Ok, having trouble with my pics! In the meantime, Snooper''s antique cushion is a good example of the windmill/maltese cross effect. We often have people request stones with this effect specifically (many requests for "snooper" cushions, lol)

Snooper''s Ring

 

[gromit]

Date: 9/7/2009 3:13:12 PM
Author: ericad
Ok, having trouble with my pics! In the meantime, Snooper''s antique cushion is a good example of the windmill/maltese cross effect. We often have people request stones with this effect specifically (many requests for ''snooper'' cushions, lol)


Snooper''s Ring

Thanks for the great link, don''t know how I missed that one. What a beautiful stone and setting!!! Ahhh..I think I get it....maltese/windmill is the same effect. Well the look of the center is similar to snooper''s but I can''t remember how clear the effect is. It was hard enough to check out the stone calmly with lots of people around and remembering what to look out for. I wish one could take them home and check them out in comfort. I was also a bit flustered, probably thinking about all the money I might be spending. All in all, will definitely have another look, but am unfortunately away next week, so will have to wait a bit longer. I am also starting to feel that I would rather it be on my finger than someone else''s Will keep everyone posted.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 9/7/2009 4:23:49 PM
Author: gromit

Date: 9/7/2009 3:13:12 PM
Author: ericad
Ok, having trouble with my pics! In the meantime, Snooper's antique cushion is a good example of the windmill/maltese cross effect. We often have people request stones with this effect specifically (many requests for 'snooper' cushions, lol)


Snooper's Ring

Thanks for the great link, don't know how I missed that one. What a beautiful stone and setting!!! Ahhh..I think I get it....maltese/windmill is the same effect. Well the look of the center is similar to snooper's but I can't remember how clear the effect is. It was hard enough to check out the stone calmly with lots of people around and remembering what to look out for. I wish one could take them home and check them out in comfort. I was also a bit flustered, probably thinking about all the money I might be spending. All in all, will definitely have another look, but am unfortunately away next week, so will have to wait a bit longer. I am also starting to feel that I would rather it be on my finger than someone else's Will keep everyone posted.

To take a look at the difference between a older OMC and a GOG OMC take a look at these two videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xRNc7_BOpI (an Antique OMC from Erica Grace in Maytal Hannah Setting(I think?)).
Notice the dark pronounced Maltese Cross/Windmill(make sure you like a big dark zone in the middle) and roundish shape.

Keep in mind also that the Erica Grace stone is one hell of a great antique cushion, most don't look like that and I haven't seen many that matched its beauty she is great at finding them.

GOG cushion in Tacori 2620 http://www.vimeo.com/6401615
Notce the pronounced and very bright maltese cross and more squarish shape.
You just won't find an old cut stone with such amazing light return I searched for months https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-mine-brilliant-versus-cushion-brilliant-gotta-have-the-maltese-cross.118358/.

I know what you mean by 21% import taxes but you may find those taxes are buried in all the vendors in the UK prices and the bottom line price may be very similar whether you import or not.

 

[ericad]

The 2.95 you linked has a very strong maltese cross. We have had many OMC/Cushions without it. Just depends on the stone and the buyer's preference - there are all sorts of antique OMC/cushion cuts available.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP stated above that she/he is only looking for an antique stone?

I've found that those who love antique stones are typically not looking for the type of clinical perfection the newly cut stones offer. They are 2 completely different types of cuts and I suspect that lovers of antique stones, like myself, are drawn to the age, mystery, romance, history and quirkiness of old cuts - not to mention that no 2 are alike. Newly cut cushions are beautiful in their own right, for sure, but my point is that one really can't compare the two except to say that the old cuts inspired the new. Other than that they are really very different, IMO, and not interchangeable (meaning a person with their heart set on an antique stone will probably not like the newly cut ones because they aren't...old!)

 

[ericad]

For comparison, here's an example of a cushion without maltese cross


4.12 Mounted

4.12 Loose

 

[gromit]

Date: 9/7/2009 5:26:57 PM
Author: ericad
The 2.95 you linked has a very strong maltese cross. We have had many OMC/Cushions without it. Just depends on the stone and the buyer''s preference - there are all sorts of antique OMC/cushion cuts available.


I think the OP is only looking for an old cut, as stated above? Those who love antique stones are typically not looking for the type of clinical perfection the newly cut stones offer. They are 2 completely different types of cuts and I suspect that lovers of antique stones, like myself, are drawn to the age, mystery, romance and quirkiness of old cuts - not to mention that no 2 are alike. Perhaps a newly cut cushion is an option for the OP - they are beautiful in their own right, for sure, but my point is that one really can''t compare the two except to say that the old cuts inspired the new. Other than that they are really very different, IMO, and not interchangeable (meaning a person with their heart set on an antique stone will probably not like the newly cut ones because they aren''t...old!)

Sorry CCL, my sentiments exactly and thanks for pointing out the videos, what a sparklefest!!!

I love the uniqueness of the old cuts, how each one is different, their age and because they are antique their rarity. You won''t find another one like it. Then again, the preference is probably also because I am always looking for something a little different. It is also great to think that these stones were really handcut and not so scientifically driven, although I would still want it to be a good/great performer. With the higher crown, to me they also look a bit more like the original rough they came from. It still amazes me how captivating a good stone can be. At the risk of sounding superficial, it can certainly give every day a little extra sparkle!

 

[gromit]

Date: 9/7/2009 5:31:20 PM
Author: ericad
For comparison, here''s an example of a cushion without maltese cross


4.12 Mounted


4.12 Loose

Holy moly!!! that is amazing fire from those stones...eyeball singe worthy! Would a excellent cut RB display the same? or is this particular to old cuts? Thanks for all your great advise/information!

 

[hihowareyou]

The new GOG OMC is amazing (mine should be here today) but it isn't the same as an antique stone. Antique stones are about more than just light performance, they have lived entire lives before belonging to you. I love the GOG stones but I don't think they can substitute for the real thing if the buyer is also looking for a stone with that real hand cut charm.

 

[ericad]

I can''t say about RBs, as our specialty is old cuts. But yes, antique cuts are known for their fire and broad chunky flashes. Each stone is unique and will perform differently under different lighting conditions. Some will be more firey than others, some will face up extremely white and bright and others will show more contrast.

If it''s at all possible, try to negotiate with your seller so that the sale is contingent on appraisal, or ask him to allow you a reasonable inspection/return period so that you can take the ring home and look at it under different kinds of lighting.

 

[gromit]

One last comment...before bedtime...I thought it looked pretty good and that was even when it was dirty . Don''t understand jewellers who don''t keep their stock clean??? Is it because they just have too much to keep track of? (am happy to lessen their burden)

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 9/7/2009 5:26:57 PM
Author: ericad
The 2.95 you linked has a very strong maltese cross. We have had many OMC/Cushions without it. Just depends on the stone and the buyer''s preference - there are all sorts of antique OMC/cushion cuts available.

Forgive me if I''m wrong, but I think the OP stated above that she/he is only looking for an antique stone?

I''ve found that those who love antique stones are typically not looking for the type of clinical perfection the newly cut stones offer. They are 2 completely different types of cuts and I suspect that lovers of antique stones, like myself, are drawn to the age, mystery, romance, history and quirkiness of old cuts - not to mention that no 2 are alike. Newly cut cushions are beautiful in their own right, for sure, but my point is that one really can''t compare the two except to say that the old cuts inspired the new. Other than that they are really very different, IMO, and not interchangeable (meaning a person with their heart set on an antique stone will probably not like the newly cut ones because they aren''t...old!)

Yeah I respect that as long as its not a newly cut stone made to look antique and old when it isn''t!
I don''t expect to pay much for a story which may or may not be true.

 

[ericad]

That''s one reason why it''s important to work with a reputable vendor - this is the case when buying any cut of diamond, but especially so with antique stones.

 

[Rhino]

Correctamundo and just a couple of clarifications...

If you''re after a genuine antique our signature OMC''s, August Vintage (and soon to be released OEC''s) are not antiques so if you''re after a genuine antique these are not for you.

They are similar to antique diamonds in the sense that we are following the lead of the old facet design/structure which is why lovers of antique diamonds are drawn to them as we took the facet structure of the oldies and perfected the optics. Like what Henry Morse did to rounds back in the late 1800''s except we''re doing it with cushions.

Along the same line of thought, Tacori & James Meyer settings are not antique settings yet people who love antiques are drawn to their styles. They don''t take the place of a genuine antique but capture the essence of them in their design.

All of them are hand cut (antiques and our sig line), however the schools of thought behind each cutting philosophy (old school vs new school) are 180 degrees different.

I always say, get what captures your heart and takes your breath away. If that is a genuine antique go for it and Godspeed on your quest.

All the best,

 

[gromit]

Date: 9/8/2009 3:36:59 PM
Author: Rhino
Correctamundo and just a couple of clarifications...


If you''re after a genuine antique our signature OMC''s, August Vintage (and soon to be released OEC''s) are not antiques so if you''re after a genuine antique these are not for you.


They are similar to antique diamonds in the sense that we are following the lead of the old facet design/structure which is why lovers of antique diamonds are drawn to them as we took the facet structure of the oldies and perfected the optics. Like what Henry Morse did to rounds back in the late 1800''s except we''re doing it with cushions.


Along the same line of thought, Tacori & James Meyer settings are not antique settings yet people who love antiques are drawn to their styles. They don''t take the place of a genuine antique but capture the essence of them in their design.


All of them are hand cut (antiques and our sig line), however the schools of thought behind each cutting philosophy (old school vs new school) are 180 degrees different.


I always say, get what captures your heart and takes your breath away. If that is a genuine antique go for it and Godspeed on your quest.


All the best,

Thank you very much for the information and your good wishes. Should anything eventuate,I will definitely let everyone know.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

The price sounds very fair (good actually) if the stone happened to be an H SI2 for example.

The problem is if the clarity grade drops to an I1. Then the value plummets about 35 to 40%.

I would make the purchase contingent upon an appraisal from the independent appraiser of you choice, with a right-of-return option for ANY reason.

Then you can''t lose.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I can't add more information than what is provided here. I just want to say that if you do purchase this stone - you better take photos to show us I can't wait to see it.

I am a bit of a strange one that loves both antique stones and newly cut antique looking stone. I once saw a 100 year old OMC from singlestone in a f color with vs clarity. It was gorgeous and I still think about it. It was very special and I doubt I will ever see another stone that is similar. The only thing that was closed is a cut sold by Wink (for a stone that can't be discussed here). I am sure the stone you saw is gorgeous and very special. I also saw the new OMC from GOG which are gorgeous too. Really .. no point to my post other than I am excited for you!

Wow .. that 2.95 cushion is gorgeous!!

 

[gromit]

Well, I went back for another look...

The seller confirmed the stone as a G colour, but with SI2-I1 clarity. As described earlier it has a small carbon inclusion in the center under the table (and a couple of other minor ones on the crown but to the side). The ring had been cleaned and looked absolutely fantastic! Lots of big chunky flashes, but at certain angles and with close scrutiny I could see the inclusion under the table as a very small pin prick. I couldn''t really see anything from the sides. Can definitely be seen when louped.

Now, I think I can live with that, as the diamond is otherwise fabulous, but does this lower it''s value by a lot and does it make the clarity a definite I1, since the inclusion is eye visible from the table? I guess....is the price still reasonable?

On re-reading some of the other omc posts, I think this is actually an old mine cushion, as it is more square in shape. I was advised that the stone is from around the 1860''s...a real antique. The symmetry looked reasonable good, the culet looked slightly off centre, but not too bad.

Managed to get some quick photos...opinions much appreciated

Thanks again
gromit

ps: sorry a bit blurry, but more to show finger coverage....and that is not my finger but the sellers, so will look much bigger and better on mine.

 

[gromit]

one from the front

 

[gromit]

some side shots

 

[gromit]

...

 

[gromit]

last one...showing yummy high crown

 

[glitterata]

I think that''s gorgeous.

Have you talked to the seller about having it appraised, with the right to return it (or not buy it) if it doesn''t check out with an independent appraiser?

 

[gromit]

Date: 9/21/2009 7:49:13 PM
Author: glitterata
I think that''s gorgeous.

Have you talked to the seller about having it appraised, with the right to return it (or not buy it) if it doesn''t check out with an independent appraiser?

Thanks glitterata....I thought so too

.

If I go ahead, I will get the stats verified by an independant appraiser and of course...post some better pictures.