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Old GIA certs

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MrOdell

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
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15
Hi guys.....I am very confused concerning old GIA certs. Actually this falls into another thread I started about the GIA certified Fancy Intense Yellow VVS1 1.00 carat emerald cut stone that I was thinking of buying. The GIA cert is from 1997, do certificates ever "expire".....if so how would one go about getting a new cert for the stone they have. Secondly, what if said stone is in a mounting? Does GIA certify stones that are already mounted? Any help will be greatly appreciated. I am still thinking of getting this diamond, but now I have another roadblock concerning an "old" GIA cert!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE HELP!!!

Saying thanks is the least I can do.........Odell

:bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile:
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
Hi Mr Odell,
GIA Report never expires,... Unless the diamond is damaged or altered,...
Yes, GIA grades Diamonds loose.
My advice to you, is to buy also loose NEVER set!
Best
George
GLE Gem Imports
 

MrOdell

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
15
Thanks George, I think what the professionals were trying to tell me is that if I plan to purchase a GIA Stone(loose), do not buy one that has an old report? Does this make better sense? For instance, if a party in town has a loose stone and the report says 2000 should I avoid or does it really matter?

Either way at this point the heart rate is backto normal.
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
Hi MrOdell,
It is not unusual that stones have older Certifficates. But the people who are giving you this advise may be concerned that there may be something wrong with the stone if it didn't sell in two or three years.
Well,... that would depend what the report would say, and what the price is.. Is it colored Diamond?
George
 

geo10000

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2002
Messages
38
Hello Odell, another factor in older GIA reports is that the technology has improved such that there can be differences in say a color grade done in 1990 verses 2003 due to the factor of electronic color grading machines as one example. Of all the labs that have been around for years GIA is the most consistant. I do not feel say a 1998 GIA report is old...1985 is a different story....

George
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
Very few people in our industry REALLY understand fancy colored diamonds.

With an older report, one has to ask the seller why the stone didn't sell, or even more important if its mounted ... that it was previously owned and may have wear on it.

I would suggest you scan a copy of the report and post it here. In 1998 GIA had several versions of reports. Color origin only, full cert.. etc. Let's see what you really have in the way of a report.

Primary hue and modifying secondary color is very important as are the proportions of such a stone.

Of course the smartest thing to do is to have it checked by someone who really is knowledgeable about such stones.

But.... if you want to learn yourself and do it yourself ( not recommended) buy Steven Hoefer's book about fancy color diamonds. It is an expensive book.. $ 300.00 but that is a pittance as compared to buying and spending your money without as much knowledge as you can garner.

You can order it from American Diamond Cutting School in Ft. Lauderdale
I think his site is http://www.adia.com .. if it isn't just do a seach using diamond cutting schools, and you'll find it easily. The owner's name is Nizam Peters and is a very knowledgeable cutter. He also has cut lots of fancy color diamonds.. His website is quite good.


Learn as much as you can about them, they are far more complex to properly analyze than what meets the eye.

Rockdoc
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Yeah, you're okay with a 1997 cert. If it were a 15-20 yr old cert, I might consider re-submitting it, just to take advantage of a sharper, more sophisticated GIA.

The other period I would want to have double checked if I was buying a fancy intense stone would be the 1999-2000 period. That's when HPHT treatment began being used, and there's a possibility that some stones slipped through the process before the major gem labs learned how to detect them.

In 1997 this was not a problem though.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144
The "old" cert is still applicable PROVIDED that the stone has never been mounted or worn or excessively handled since the cert was done.

For a major purchase such as this, I believe that it's worth getting an updated cert on it. I understand that GIA only certs UNMOUNTED diamonds, so you'll need to decide how important it is to have a more current cert knowing that it will involve removing it from the mounting.

Good luck!
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
The only problem is that the mounting the emerald cut in question is in is bezel set. You'd have to open it like a can opener, ruining the mounting, which is gorgeous. A picture is in the thread "fancy yellow diamond".

Odell, an experienced diamond person can get a pretty good idea of whether or not the girdle has been damaged by examining the interior of the girdle in it's reflection on the opposite side.

I don't think you need to pull it to determine if it's okay.
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
I think MrOdell should be concerned weather the diamond matches the GIA report or not.
In my opinion it would be very hard to tell without taking the diamond out of the setting.
I deal with Yellow diamonds often and own a few nice pieces in my collection. I know how difficult it can be when color grading yellow diamond in any setting never mind plattinum or white gold,.. You need to see the diamond from the side and compare it with sample of a same cut under diamond light. One of the reasons why some labs are not as accurate, is they don't have the actual masterset in the particular color and cut to compare. I have seen actual differences between IGI , EGL and GIA color grading in fancy colored diamonds so large, it made my hair stand up! For example you can't compare Fancy intense yellow emerald cut with the same color in round brilliant cut or radiant. As I mentioned earlier some cuts will not retain the color as well as the other,...
Grading a Fancy Intense Yellow diamond in this type of setting is in my opinion next to impossible,... The diamond can look one or two shades off and this can make a huge difference in price . And the difference is too large between Fancy Intense and two shades down Fancy Light yellow. Rough guess,... it can be about $6000+ in today's market. Meaning there is no concistency in prices of yellow diamonds.
Why risk, when you can have the ring custom made for nearly the same ammount of money and if you are ok with the Fancy Light yellow, you can have a 2carat stone for less,.. incl. the setting. All you need to do is set it in yellow gold liner and the diamond will appear so intense Yellow, you won't be able to tell it is Fancy light,..
Just my humble opinion,...
George
GLE Gem Imports
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Bummer. It's such a sharp mounting. French made and all...

George, don't you think it could be determined if the stone matched the cert by confirming the measurements, cut characteristics, fluorescence, inclusions against the plotting diagram, etc.?
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
Hi Rich,
You tell me, you are the expert,.. If you can get an accurate measurement and identify the inclusion on VVS1 in this type of setting it would be great! If the stone was VS clarity it would be much easier task.
You have to be **** good to identify VVS1 in this setting , I have to admit, It would be a battle for me!

But we haven't seen the GIA cert yet,..
Honestly,.. I love the ring, but I have to admit, I dont like grading of Emerald cut Fancy colored diamonds loose never mind set!,... It is a Risky investment!
George
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
If the inclusion which sets the VVS1 grade is right on the edge it would be difficult because of the bezel, but if in the interior of the stone it shouldn't be a problem to locate it under the scope. Especially with the "map" of the GIA plotting diagram to follow.

Even if on the edge, the absence of inclusions in the rest of the stone would be one strong indicator that the diamond is one and the same.

The length & width would have to be estimated, but still should be close to the measurements listed on the cert, as well as the length-to-width ratio matching up.

The pavilion depth could be measured directly, which would be a very strong indicator if the diamond is one and the same.

Table measurement and total depth (although estimated as well because of the estimation of the width of the stone) should be close enough to be strong indicators.

Strength or absence of fluorescence would be another very strong indicator.

Then lastly you'd have the tone of color as an indicator, as well as whether the color is of natural origin or irradiated (determined by spectroscopic analysis).

All things considered, I think you'd be able to determine if it was the same stone as the one reported.
 

diamondsman

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Messages
648
MROdell,
G.I.A certs. never expire there are a few choices:
1)Resumit for an update,and get the same color and clarity(measur. are always the same unless altered throughout the years)

2)Resubmit as a new stone and take a chance that it might either be the same ,better,or worse.
in most cases they are very consisitent,but...ther have been a few occasions where they gave it better/worse color and/or clarity.

good luck
 

MrOdell

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
15
George and Richard I have your email address and I will be sending both of you a copy of the GIA cert....I tried to post it here but for some reason the attachment would not post.

Thanks for everything, I sure would hate to bust the stone out of the setting....
 
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