old european cuts, sarin reports and numbers!

[jteh]

Hi there
I have been shopping around on the internet for a few old european cut stones and was wondering if I could get some input from you knowledgeable folk out there?

I am somewhat apprehensive about buying a stone unseen and have only really been able to go by the numbers like table % and depth % so far - nothing much else in assessing cut other than a websites own category! (OECs dont seem to have AGS ideal cuts, hearts and arrows and all of this other stuff I''ve been reading about

I''ve read on various other posts that sarin reports are also useful in assessing diamond cut and just have a few questions over them;

*What exactly are they and how can they be used?
*Do they usually come with a diamond or do they need to be done individually and if so, are they costly/difficult?
*Is it too much to ask a diamond vendor to get a sarin report done?
*Are they useful in assessing old euro cuts?

I''ve found a few oec stones that I may be interested in and was hoping all of you experts out there could cast a quick eye over these numbers? As I said before, I''m a little wary of buying a stone purely based on these figures - it feels as if I have too little info!

1) 1.36ct I color VS2 clarity 56% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, faint fluoro $5680usd EGL cert
2) 1.30ct H color VS1 clarity 63.5% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, no fluoro $6560usd EGL cert
3) 1.25ct G color SI1 clarity 67% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, no fluoro $5869usd GIA cert
4) 1.11ct H color SI2 clarity 67.5% depth 51% table, thin-tkick girdle, no fluoro $4011usd EGL cert
5) 1.06ct D color VS1 clarity 63.3% depth 55% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, med fluoro $7078usd GIA cert
6) 1.06ct H color SI1 clarity 65.4% depth 48% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, no fluoro $4340usd EGL cert
7) 1.05ct F color SI1 clarity 65.6% depth 50% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, strong fluoro $4749usd EGL cert

few that was a long list! Is it just me or are nearly all oec stones I see online EGL certified? Is this something to be worried about?

ps thanks for all of the great info thus far! I am glad I found this forum

 

[Hest88]

Hi and welcome. First off, may I ask why you''re looking at OECs? I love them myself, and applaud anyone with the good taste to prefer them over newer stones, but when you talk about H&As, and AGS reports it worries me that you may not really know what you''re getting yourself into.

As you know, OECs are antique diamonds, so they were not cut with the precision of newer stones. There is no easy way to tell if you''ve got a good one or not, but Dave Atlas did try to come up with some criteria. I''d PM him (his username is oldminer) and see if he can email you a copy.

#1 is way to flat for me.

I think the ones with the 63-65% depths are worth looking at, but when you get to 67% I think that''s too deep.

Personally, I''d make sure the stone has a good return policy and send it to Dave Atlas for appraisal before buying.

 

[RockDoc]

Not all OEC''s were cut long ago. There are still cutters that will cut OEC''s currently.

Tolkowsky''s recommended proportions are sort of the standard for these cuts. None of the stone you posted really closely adhere to those standards.

Also Tolkowsky didn''t really recommend a girdle thickness.

The stone you listed with the 55 table and 63 depth is probably the closest to Tolk. proportions that you listed in your post.

The selection sort of depends on your personal preferences. IF you want the "cats meow" and you really want an "antique cut diamond" look, then getting closer to the Tolkowsky "formula" is possibly the best choice.

Guess it depends on how many times you want the "hair split".

Rockdoc

 

[oldminer]

In a few days my AGA chart for old Euopean cut diamonds will be on the websites. I have sent this out to many folks over the years, but never posted it before. I suppose it won''t do any harm to have people see it more often. It varies from the regular round chart somewhat, but not a great deal. However, facet design and layout are different on old cuts and that has a big effect on appearance and light return.

Either you like them or you prefer modern cuts. It is a personal choice. My daughter liked the look of old cuts enough that that''s what she got for her engagement ring. Some people would want a modern look instead. It is very true that many old design cuts are still being cut today. Some are sold as "old" and some are properly represented as newly cut old style stones. It doesn''t make a lot of difference as the diamond material itself is millions of years old anyway. Cut right it looks very well. Cut poorly, old or new, it still is not so pretty.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/12/2005 8:53:57 AM
Author:jteh
I'm a little wary of buying a stone purely based on these figures - it feels as if I have too little info!

Yiks! No way... There should at least be some pictures out there for you.

The finish of these old stones (if they are old-old, not OEC-style new ones) is not as precise as the moder stones sport. The hand-made look is quite a charmer, but these things need to be seen. At least in picture.

The kind and position of inlcusions in those SI1s would make the difference between eye clean and not quite... Yet anther reason to see the stones.

It would be a stretch to try the HCA on these since the OEC cut has different proportions than moderns... The Ideal Scope and any other tool measuring light return directly (as opposed to "by the numbers" ) would work on these. Basically, what works for fancies would work for these. Does the seller use any such thing ? It would help.

IMO at least.


Of that list... and just for the sake of picking up the best guess as little as the numbers give to go with:

1) 1.36ct I color VS2 clarity 56% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, faint fluoro $5680usd EGL cert
.... could be too shallow. Since there's choice and no evidence to show otherwise this one gets out.

2) 1.30ct H color VS1 clarity 63.5% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, no fluoro $6560usd EGL cert
.... cool, can they show it to you ? Lower clarity would be a better deal though, without making any visual difference.

3) 1.25ct G color SI1 clarity 67% depth 51% table, thin-med girdle, no fluoro $5869usd GIA cert
... how big is it ? Depth is a bit much, but if the price matches the size and brilliance is there - why not. GIA sounds good too.

4) 1.11ct H color SI2 clarity 67.5% depth 51% table, thin-tkick girdle, no fluoro $4011usd EGL cert
... I would be surprised if EGL's SI2 turns out "eye clean". The price hints at this too. Since there is choice, this one gets out.

5) 1.06ct D color VS1 clarity 63.3% depth 55% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, med fluoro $7078usd GIA cert
... Nice & expensive ! If looks counts more than pedigree, that G/SI1 or the F/SI1 would just be a better deal keeping the colorless look right. If it turns out a brilliant stone, well.. it's up to you. High color and clarity in old cuts is a bit hard to fnd.

6) 1.06ct H color SI1 clarity 65.4% depth 48% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, no fluoro $4340usd EGL cert
... A modern brilliant would never have such a small table - this stone definititely has the "old look". I would love to see it !

7) 1.05ct F color SI1 clarity 65.6% depth 50% table, thin-slightly thick girdle, strong fluoro $4749usd EGL cert
... Nice stuff. The strong fluorescence might just be appealing to you and kept the price where it is. If they can show you the stone, it might just turn out to be great.

Honestly, I would just ask for IdealSCope pictures or (if the seller has never used this thing) ask for a side-by-side photo of three of these stones, ask the seller to hint which looks brighter to them and get the favorite from the photos down to investigate for brilliance (using Iscope perhaps) and looks. Just IMO, of course.

About the EGL cert ... Which "EGL" is this ? The US branch seems to be more trusted here, although the grades are not taken as equivalent to GIA's, it sounds like adjusting one grade down is reasonable. No the same for EGL branches from elsewhere. There is a survey posted in the "Pricescope Diamond Journal" about this (see front page).


Hope some of this helps.

 

[mrssalvo]

Hi there,
I actually own and OEC stone. Here are my numbers
1.19 carats
SI 2 -- when i bought it, it was a VS2 but has suffered a couple of chips due to a thin girdle which has lowered the clarity..
this is something to consider when purchasing on older cut..but it is still "eye clean" also, you can choose a type of setting that will protect the gridle..i.e. bezel...
depth - 68.8
table - 51.5
crown - 17.7
pavillion - 44.3
girdle - extra thin - med
6.52x6.7x4.42

If going by the numbers alone, many would have said to pass on this stone..but it is GORGEOUS to me and has tons of fire. like any stone, the numbers are a great guide but may not tell the whole story. also, it does not look as big as the 1.19. It only measures 6.5 mm which in more like an modern cut 1 carat, of course the price will reflect the difference. i reccommend trying to see the stone before purchasing if at all possible or like RocDoc said, send it to Dave and get his opinon. good luck with your search..


edited to add; i would be happy to post pics of my idealscope images if you are interested..

 

[mrssalvo]

here''s a pic of my OEC under idealscope. this is from the appraisal i had done by Richard Sherwood