OEC lovers -- what's a fair price for this?

[Lula]

Details:

Setting: Platinum setting with single-cut diamonds (two damaged) and sapphires (no idea if they are natural or synthetic). Prongs need re-tipping.

Diamond: No grading report. Seller estimates stone to be somewhere in the 1.0 carat to 1.20 carat range. No idea if it has fluorescence. Clarity good; no obvious chips on girdle, but who knows what's under the prongs! Color -- looks to be on the low end of the color scale, just missing FLY.

Seller: Individual who buys/sells estate jewelry and antiques.

Return period: Returns allowed if item misrepresented.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Lula]

Front view

 

[kelpie]

Wow, I love! I'd say maybe offer 3-4k.

 

[Christina...]

The color isn't even close on this one and it's not platinum but i thought it might be helpful for comparison sake...

http://oakgem.com/Products/Antique_Deco_18k_Gold_1.06ct_Diamond_Engagement_Ring_4747.aspx

 

[Lula]

Wow, I love! I'd say maybe offer 3-4k.

Thank you, kelpie -- I was hoping you'd see this thread and chime in. Well, it appears I've learned a thing or two from my time on PS, because your price range is close to what I was thinking. The seller wants more than that, and I know from my e-mail conversation with Ari from Single Stone, that this ring will no doubt need $500 -- $1500 worth of work to make it safe to wear, get the stone graded, etc. So I'm trying to be conservative in my offer.

 

[Lula]

The color isn't even close on this one and it's not platinum but i thought it might be helpful for comparison sake...

http://oakgem.com/Products/Antique_Deco_18k_Gold_1.06ct_Diamond_Engagement_Ring_4747.aspx

Thank you, Christina. That is a helpful link, because that stone is graded an H color, which is harder to find than an OEC with lower color. This diamond has a nice color, but it's not in the FLY or FY range, so that -- from my understanding anyway -- lowers the price a bit.

 

[kelpie]

Wow, I love! I'd say maybe offer 3-4k.

Thank you, kelpie -- I was hoping you'd see this thread and chime in. Well, it appears I've learned a thing or two from my time on PS, because your price range is close to what I was thinking. The seller wants more than that, and I know from my e-mail conversation with Ari from Single Stone, that this ring will no doubt need $500 -- $1500 worth of work to make it safe to wear, get the stone graded, etc. So I'm trying to be conservative in my offer.

Ari gave me a bit of advice I found valuable after he recut my ebay stone and I asked about sending it to GIA...it was something along the lines of "you either like a OEC for what it is up front or you don't. Spending $500 on a GIA cert is not going to tell you much your eyes don't unless you want to sell it in which case a certificate is useful".

 

[Christina...]

The color isn't even close on this one and it's not platinum but i thought it might be helpful for comparison sake...

http://oakgem.com/Products/Antique_Deco_18k_Gold_1.06ct_Diamond_Engagement_Ring_4747.aspx

Thank you, Christina. That is a helpful link, because that stone is graded an H color, which is harder to find than an OEC with lower color. This diamond has a nice color, but it's not in the FLY or FY range, so that -- from my understanding anyway -- lowers the price a bit.

These aren't quite right for a price comparison either but it may be a bit helpful, and I agree,I think that if it misses the fancy color mark then I think it takes quite a hit in price. Lucky for you!

http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/loose_antique_and_estate_diamonds

 

[yennyfire]

I'm not an expert, but have been spending quite a lot of time looking at old cuts, including OECs and antique settings (which I love) and I'd agree that $3-$4K is a fair price for that ring. If the setting were in perfect condition, I'd imagine it would be worth about $5500. I hope that you can agree on a price and give us some more photos of that baby (preferably on your hand!).

 

[Lula]

Wow, I love! I'd say maybe offer 3-4k.

Thank you, kelpie -- I was hoping you'd see this thread and chime in. Well, it appears I've learned a thing or two from my time on PS, because your price range is close to what I was thinking. The seller wants more than that, and I know from my e-mail conversation with Ari from Single Stone, that this ring will no doubt need $500 -- $1500 worth of work to make it safe to wear, get the stone graded, etc. So I'm trying to be conservative in my offer.

Ari gave me a bit of advice I found valuable after he recut my ebay stone and I asked about sending it to GIA...it was something along the lines of "you either like a OEC for what it is up front or you don't. Spending $500 on a GIA cert is not going to tell you much your eyes don't unless you want to sell it in which case a certificate is useful".

That is good advice. And potentially money-saving advice, too! Yes, I was drawn to the stone because of its color, and I don't need a GIA report to tell me that I like the color, ha-ha. I have really enjoyed working with Ari via phone/e-mail. He's given me a lot of feedback on what to expect in restoring a vintage ring. He also said that pulling the stone to send it to a lab for grading would require a remake of the prongs. So while we spend a lot of time on PS talking about the importance of grading reports, I can see where they have their pros and cons in the antique/vintage jewelry world.

 

[Lula]

The color isn't even close on this one and it's not platinum but i thought it might be helpful for comparison sake...

http://oakgem.com/Products/Antique_Deco_18k_Gold_1.06ct_Diamond_Engagement_Ring_4747.aspx

Thank you, Christina. That is a helpful link, because that stone is graded an H color, which is harder to find than an OEC with lower color. This diamond has a nice color, but it's not in the FLY or FY range, so that -- from my understanding anyway -- lowers the price a bit.

These aren't quite right for a price comparison either but it may be a bit helpful, and I agree,I think that if it misses the fancy color mark then I think it takes quite a hit in price. Lucky for you!

http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/loose_antique_and_estate_diamonds

Thanks, Christina -- I looked at JBEG's site, but only at the rings page -- I forgot to check their site for their prices on loose antique stones. No two OEC's are alike, so comparing is always difficult, but I want as much information as possible on what 1-carat-ish, lower color OEC's are going for. Ebay is of limited help -- geez, sellers on ebay are all over the map these days with prices.

 

[Lula]

I'm not an expert, but have been spending quite a lot of time looking at old cuts, including OECs and antique settings (which I love) and I'd agree that $3-$4K is a fair price for that ring. If the setting were in perfect condition, I'd imagine it would be worth about $5500. I hope that you can agree on a price and give us some more photos of that baby (preferably on your hand!).

Hi, yenny -- thank you! Your estimate of the value of the ring if it were restored is pretty close to Ari's -- you ladies are good!

 

[Lula]

This discussion has been very helpful to me. It's useful to see what vendors like JBEG and Ari, who specialize in antique and vintage jewelry, think a piece is worth (and what it would require to restore it). But it's also useful to see what my fellow PS'ers, who follow the antique jewelry market more than I do, think is reasonable. Especially because I do like this ring very much and it's so easy to lose objectivity when a piece is calling your name!

 

[tyty333]

Here are an N and M stone...not as pretty as the one you are looking at but for compairson sake (I think $3-$4k would be about
right also).

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=417&SHAPE=EU&PAGE=43
http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=1180&SHAPE=EU&PAGE=43

And nothing to do with what your looking at but just wanted to say I want this Q stone (so pretty)!
http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=416&SHAPE=EU&PAGE=43

 

[Lula]

Thanks tyty -- that Q stone is gorgeous!

Well, here's the update:
I went to look at the ring this afternoon, and I made the owner an offer of $3500. The seller was asking $4995 for the ring in as-is condition, with two curved diamond bands (in gold, not platinum) which were not original to the ring. I told the seller I was not interested in the curved bands, just the ring, and that I had done some research on how much restoration the ring would need to make it safe to wear. The seller took $195 off the price for the bands, so $4800. I looked at the ring again, and didn't see any additional areas of wear (it needs new prongs and two single cut diamonds replaced). On seeing it again, I have to say I was not as wowed by the ring, and I would have been a lot more "wowed" if the price was lower and I didn't have to pay to have it restored. I asked him what he'd give me for my G VS1, AGS 0, .77 carat Infinity RB, and he said he could give m $1500 for it. I said, that's ridiculous, the company I bought it from will buy it back from me for 80% of what I paid. He didn't believe me. I said, well, thanks but no thanks -- I just don't want to spend more than $3500 on this ring (it's been in his store for many months, maybe over a year). He said, where did you learn so much about diamonds and jewelry? And then he offered me a job. I turned the job down, but I did tell him about PS.

I looked at several other piece while I was there, and his prices are pretty high on everything. Seriously, I think JBEG and Single Stone offer a lot more for the money than any local estate/pawn shop I've been in -- and I'm sure those vendors inspect the quality of the pieces a lot more carefully.

He did tell me the price is going up to 6 grand.

 

[stci]

Not expert just my 2 cents.

1- I'm pretty sure it's not real sapphires
2- The color look like a S-T for me
3- I would like to know the dimensions of the center stone. Despite is weight, it could be really deep and look like .70 ct.
4- 500$ of work on the setting

For me, this ring worth 2500$ not more. It would be the price that I would offer if it was me. Take as is without certification.

 

[Lula]

Not expert just my 2 cents.

1- I'm pretty sure it's not real sapphires
2- The color look like a S-T for me
3- I would like to know the dimensions of the center stone. Despite is weight, it could be really deep and look like .70 ct.
4- 500$ of work on the setting

For me, this ring worth 2500$ not more. It would be the price that I would offer if it was me. Take as is without certification.

Having seen the ring a second time, I must say I agree with everything you've said, stci.

The stone looked closer to 1 carat than 1.20 carat, at least face-up and on my hand.
The seller downplayed the amount of work the setting would need; I was really glad I checked that out with Ari from Single Stone!

 

[Dreamer_D]

My only thoughts t oadd is tha tthe return policy is basically useless and equivalent to no return policy at all, given the very limited information being given about the ring by the seller. He is basically saying it is a ring with a diamond in it. Unless you take it to an appraiser who tells you it is in fac ta brooch with a sapphire in it I can't see you ever really having grounds for a return. That does not make me comfortable with the purchase, no matter the price.

If you proceed, have him put in writing what he is representing the ring/diamond to be so you at least have some recourse for a return.

 

[tyty333]

He did tell me the price is going up to 6 grand.

I think you can do much better somewhere else! Might take some time though and oh yeh, I'll give you
$1501 for your Infinity!

He is probably not used to educated consumers!

 

[oldminer]

It is a pretty ring and the cost of repairs in our area would not be anything like $500, much less unless there is hidden wear or damage not shown in the photos. However, since a repair is necessary, the right way to buy such a ring is to have the vendor remove the diamond, give you the exact weight, look over the entire stone for chips and have it color and clarity graded unset so you can understand the value of the deal. Right now, if the return policy is that it may be returned if misrepresented means nothing as I don't see any real representation of weight, color, clarity etc being provided. In other words, you'd have no basis upon which to make a return. These old rings with old diamonds are increasingly more scarce. This one does not appear very worn out except at the prongs and those are readily fixed.

Doing a search here for M to Z color diamonds in VS to SI clarity puts the Internet retail in the mid 3K for stones of 1.1-1.2ct. You can't expect the seller to give the mounting away at no charge and the fix is not as high as imagined if you shop properly for that, too.
WIthout seeing the ring in person, it has a lot of appeal although it might be too costly for your budget. Not every person would want a diamond in the color range, so consider that as well.

 

[Lula]

My only thoughts t oadd is tha tthe return policy is basically useless and equivalent to no return policy at all, given the very limited information being given about the ring by the seller. He is basically saying it is a ring with a diamond in it. Unless you take it to an appraiser who tells you it is in fac ta brooch with a sapphire in it I can't see you ever really having grounds for a return. That does not make me comfortable with the purchase, no matter the price.

If you proceed, have him put in writing what he is representing the ring/diamond to be so you at least have some recourse for a return.

Thanks, Dreamer -- and, yes, the lack of any sort of documentation on this ring by the seller was not encouraging and made me hesitate. Yes, I believe it's a diamond, but the seller was making a WAG on the carat weight. As stci mentioned, it could be a heavy stone that faces up small. The seller claimed that it was closer to 1.20 carats. The ring is marked platinum inside. The seller claimed to never have louped it and claimed to be unaware that there were two chipped single cut diamonds in the setting. I got the impression that the return policy was not any kind of "real" return policy, which is why I was offering so little for the ring (compared to his asking price). It really would be a buy-at-your-own-risk transaction, and all I knew for sure that I would be getting for my $3500 is a platinum (marked) setting in decent shape with some sort of vintage stone in it (color, clarity, carat weight unknown) that "appears" to be a diamond and "tested" as a diamond in the store's diamond tester (which I understand are not 100% fraud-proof). So I was unwilling to pay a whole lot for this ring, given the many "unknowns." That said, it is a pretty ring, which I would wear as a right-hand ring, so I was willing to pay something for it, just to wear it and love it as unusual vintage piece.

tyty -- ha-ha, yes, I'd be willing to pay $1502 for another Infinity like mine any day! Just goes to show that you cannot get anything on trade-in for "used" diamonds. I wasn't serious about the trade-in -- more curious about what the local market is offering on trade-in for a stone like mine. And, yes, before I left, he said that for me the price would be $4,800, but anyone else inquiring about the ring going forward, would be told it was $6,000. Well, I worked in retail sales while I was in college; I know this technique very well, and have never approved of it.

Oldminer -- thank you for sharing your opinion. Yes, I agree with you -- and Ari from Single Stone shared a similar view on the price -- the seller will go out of business selling things at below market price. But, as you mention, these lower-color diamonds are not for everyone. This ring has been in the seller's store for a loooong time, and like many antiques dealers I've known, he becomes "attached" to some of his merchandise and it just sits there. The fact that it had been there for a while gave me the hope that there would be a lot more room to negotiate on the price. Wrong-o!

Anyway, another thing that bothers me is the cost of the restoration/repairs and choosing the appropriate person to make the repairs. This seller recommended two benches in town to do the repair work. I spoke to both of them and they quoted very low prices to retip the prongs ($50). One of the jewelers I spoke to had actually seen this ring in the seller's store, and knew which ring I was asking about. So, yes, I knew that the repairs *could* be done locally at a very reasonable price. But -- and this was a big but for me -- this is a vintage ring with its original vintage stone in it, and from the looks of it, had never been sized or had any work done on it. The setting appears to be well-made, but in inexperienced hands, the whole thing could just fall apart. Which is why I sent Ari from Single Stone the photos of the ring and asked for his estimate/impressions of the ring.

I've also discussed using vintage settings with Melissa and Wink (from High Performance Diamonds, for any of you newbies out there reading this), and both of them have cautioned me about problems with metal porosity in these old settings. A local jeweler I use for minor repairs has also cautioned me about this when I asked him about using vintage settings for new projects. This is why I'd pay the extra to send this ring to somebody like Ari for restoration. And that's why I wanted a bigger discount on the price -- because even though the condition of the ring looked pretty good, there would be no way to know how much work it would need until a jeweler actually evaluated the piece. Ari did tell me that removing the stone to send it for grading would most likely ruin all of the prongs, necessitating a more extensive repair.

The ring was also filthy, and it was really hard to tell the quality/clarity of the stones. The store had a loupe available, but no gemscope.

So, as it stands, I still like the ring. I'm still uncomfortable, based on how little I know about the actual specs on the stone and how much work the ring would require ($50? $500? More than $500?), with the $4,800 price. He's got my phone number, so if it doesn't sell in the next few months, maybe I'll hear from him.