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OEC/Holloway Cut Advisor??

Emeraldcutlover

Emeraldcutlover

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
902
Hi again! This question may have been asked before but I cannot seem to find the answer. I am still on the hunt for an OEC and found one that looks beautiful (to me) via photos/video. I especially love the checkerboard look. I plugged the numbers in of the stone I am considering, to the "Halloway" calculator. (*note: I only know that it has a Medium Cutlet but do not know the numbers, so I threw in multiple different ones, but still came back with the same outcome). It came back with "Should not be considered", the crown is too steep. (crown is: 41.8) So my question is: Can you use the Halloway Cut Advisor for old cuts? Also, how could my eye be so off :shock: The person that is selling the stone is very reputable. I have not asked about this tool to them yet. Any feedback/thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
 
No, you don't. The HCA is used for MRBs.
 
Emeraldcutlover|1343228545|3239683 said:
Hi again! This question may have been asked before but I cannot seem to find the answer. I am still on the hunt for an OEC and found one that looks beautiful (to me) via photos/video. I especially love the checkerboard look. I plugged the numbers in of the stone I am considering, to the "Halloway" calculator. (*note: I only know that it has a Medium Cutlet but do not know the numbers, so I threw in multiple different ones, but still came back with the same outcome). It came back with "Should not be considered", the crown is too steep. (crown is: 41.8) So my question is: Can you use the Halloway Cut Advisor for old cuts? Also, how could my eye be so off :shock: The person that is selling the stone is very reputable. I have not asked about this tool to them yet. Any feedback/thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
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Ditto - modern RBs only w/ HCA.
The pavilion facets on RBs and OECs work together differently - in RBs the mains are thinner and shallower and the steeper lower girdle facets are longer, extending well under the table. Larger culet means steeper pavilion facets.
 
No, HCA does not apply to old cuts.
 
Thank you so much. Is there any tool out there currently used for OEC's? If the ring is already in a setting, can I still obtain a good ASET?
 
Emeraldcutlover|1343229127|3239696 said:
Thank you so much. Is there any tool out there currently used for OEC's? If the ring is already in a setting, can I still obtain a good ASET?
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Yes, you can take a photo through an ASET scope of a set stone... but OECs weren't cut to optimise light return under tools like ASET, so most won't "do" particularly well. GOG's AV line is a good alternative if "excellent performance" as judged by modern metrics using modern tools is the goal.
 
Thank you so much Madelise, Yssie and Fortekitty! Any other suggestions to tell me if it is good stone as far as Fire, Brilliance, etc. or go with the vendor that gives me their expert opinion. Also, do you guys think it's worth paying a substantial premium for a whiter stone? For the cost of this, I could potentially get a 4.5 ct (L,M,N etc). What is the lowest color one can go before seeing color as distracting? I understand that it can be very personal. I saw Ginger's "Poppy" ring and it looked beautiful and I believe she thought it was around an N/O?
 
Thx Yssie. Sorry - I had replied prior to seeing your post. I do love GOG's AVR! It's just been so hard to find something in the 3.00+ with a higher color. I do love their 5 ct "V" one! :love: It looks magnificent but the color is just too low for me and I do think the 5ct would be a bit much!! :bigsmile: Okay, maybe not! 8-)
 
Emeraldcutlover|1343229502|3239703 said:
Thank you so much Madelise, Yssie and Fortekitty! Any other suggestions to tell me if it is good stone as far as Fire, Brilliance, etc. or go with the vendor that gives me their expert opinion. Also, do you guys think it's worth paying a substantial premium for a whiter stone? For the cost of this, I could potentially get a 4.5 ct (L,M,N etc). What is the lowest color one can go before seeing color as distracting? I understand that it can be very personal. I saw Ginger's "Poppy" ring and it looked beautiful and I believe she thought it was around an N/O?
Click to expand...

We don't have any info or pics so we can't tell you anything at all... but my advice is always to choose a vendor whose opinions you trust and then trust those opinions. Fancies, old cuts really do need to be seen to be fully appreciated - by your own eyes, preferably, but a trusted vendor is the next best thing.
 
Have you seen many old cuts in person? What type of "flavour" are you after? Can you post some pictures?

There are not many rules about old cuts, but I can offer my opinion about what I would personally look for in a particular type of old cut if you share the style you are after.
 
Oh, and regarding color... two things.

First is that I personally find warmth in older chunky cuts more appeling than I find it in a modern RB. So, in an MRB my preference is for a stone around G-H. But in older cuts somehow the body tint adds "depth" and I like it. In an old cut I like J-K colors, and even L-M appears to me, though my personal preference is for the J-K range for a keystone in my collection.

Second, I have seen people write about how old cuts mask color well or "face up: whiter than their body color. I used to poo poo this until I got my current 8mm OEC. When I evaluated it face up in the mount I thought it looked like an H-I color stone! Very white, and my jeweler agreed. And when we unset the stone, it was apparent it was more of a K color stone! We were shocked! So I am now convinced its true: Some old cuts can face up so much whiter than their body color, it is really amazing. I'm not sure what specific types of old cuts show this effect, but JBEG might be able to help educate you about it if its something you care about.
 
Hi Dreamer D: Thank you so much for your reply. I am going to try and post some pictures of OEC's that caught my eye. I do love all of the AVR (especially the checkerboard look). I have seen some in person and at the time, I could not figure out why I seemed to love some "round" stones but I knew I was not as attracted to the MRB. Thus, I always ended up going to the EC (I know, a totally different look which I do love!). I would love any advice from you that you can share. I do agree with you on the depth/facets being more noticeable with the warmer stones. I currently have an F - so I think that's why I've had the whiter color in my mind. However, I guess I would just need to see it in person to make that decision. In the interim, here our some that caught my eye! :love: There is one in-particular that I do love, but I cannot remember the poster and could not find it. I believe it was a 5 stone ring from JBEG (it looks like a 3 stone at a quick glance) and it had a bezel set OEC with two bezel set cushion blue sapphires and then I think 2 more smaller diamonds). It was too die for in my opinion. I will try to find it again but it has the checkerboard look that I love. Thx again!

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PS! I was looking for the other one I had saved and then saw it was yours!!!! You just got an 8mm right? I LOVE IT!! You have great taste and I love your setting. So elegant and beautiful. So there, you have an example of what I think is beautiful :lol:
 
Those are both awesome diamonds, I love them both. And from the looks of them they would perform very very well in person -- little or no under table leakage or darkness, and nice active faceting accross the face. Small tables, I bet the crowns are medium, good symmetry both geometricall and optically. I think your best bet will be to show those photos to your vendors and say you want one like that!

As to color you will need to see specific stones to know what you want -- each diamond is different in tone and in how it shows tint, its hard to know what you think without seeing it.

In general you can't limit too many parameters for old cuts because they are rare, especially in big sizes, and you will look for ever and ever if you limit too much. Decide what are the most important parameters for you and have flexibility in others. For example, for me when I was looking for my stone, in order of importance were: a phenomenal make/cut *for its type* (there were a few "looks" I liked), price, 8mm+ in spread, eye clean but no inclusions under the table. I was open to cut style and color, and carat provided the spread was where I wanted.

What is your priority?
 
Hi Dreamer D: Sorry for my delayed response! I definitely care about the cut first and foremost. Then size (9mm+), color, price... Although there is a budget ;)) I would like to bezel set the stone, so I'm not sure how the color will be effected. That being said - I just do not want to see yellow. I am looking at something that is an I and it is facing up white. I'm not sure what is the lowest I can go b/c I have seen some beautiful stones on this site that are much lower than I ever would have imagined. Also, do you think paying a significant amount more for that color is worth it? Can I get a lower color that will look white? I'm going to try and post a pic of the one I like to see what you think of the cut. Thanks again for your wisdom!
 
Okay - here are two. If you wouldn't mind letting me know your thoughts. One is coming out sooo small and I cannot figure how to make it bigger...

diamond.png

m_color.png
 
I can't tell much from the bottom one since it is tiny(wonder why it keeps showing up small..), but I definitely know the top one. It is gorgeous, I absolutely love it. :love:
 
I do too! I just don't know if it's worth the money for a higher color. So many others have the warmer ones and they still look white and sooo beautiful! But I love that patter that is going oN!!! I wish I could also make the other one bigger. It's a lot warmer though and may look slightly yellow... I want to bezel it. Is yours bezeled? I cannot tell from the picture on yours. It does look gorgeous from what i can see.
 
I think going for the high color is a personal preference. I don't have an issue with lower colors especially in antique cuts, but I know many who do like the higher colors. To each their own, they are all beautiful!

Mine is a EGL L, so it is probably in the M/N/O range as far as GIA standards. I fell in love with my OEC the first time I saw it. I loved the wonky, chunky facets and high crown that comes with early OECs, it didn't matter to me that it was lower in color. I do have it bezeled, it is in the Julia bezel from jbeg. I haven't posted pictures here since I won't be getting the ring for another 3 weeks, but I think they might help you decide on what you want so I linked some pictures Erica took for me below.

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Other/SHs-362ct-OEC-in-Julia-Bezel/23496927_JgDdNX

It is really a chameleon, in most picture it is ivory, a few it is really showing color(17, 25-27), and then others you can barely notice the tint(8, 18, 20-24 and video).
 
WOW!!!!! :appl: That is spectacular! You must be ridiculously excited! What are your dimensions of that? It does look very white! I wonder if I should consider lower colors b/c this I color is a heft price. I just have an F now - so I don't think my man will like it if he sees any yellow per se. Did you see any other ones that you liked that didn't show a lot of color? IS that your finished ring you showed me? Gorgeous! I'm totally getting the bezel look. Do you think it effects the color at all?
 
Thanks! I am VERY excited, these next three weeks can't go by fast enough!!!!

My diamond is 9.65x9.45. It does look very white in some lighting and then it looks ivory in most. :love: I think the bezel might have affected the the appearance of the color a bit, but it has always shown some color. There is a very slight difference(I think?) I noticed in pictures of when it was loose, set in a halo and bezel, but that is something I was expecting and ok with.

Here is it loose prepolish:
http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/SOLD-ITEMS-1/362ct-Loose-Old-European-Cut/14738104_zXhL4P#!i=1537152290&k=mjBnfpH
Here is it set in a halo:
http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Other/Halos/The-Gabbie-Halo-Setting-1/15232017_cCzpHK#!i=1400931829&k=ztj8P55

(Sorry I am having to post all of these links instead of just posting pictures, I am on my iPad)

How a bezel will affect the OEC is really going to depend on the cut. My diamond is a very early OEC, so covering up with girdle will have some effect. Other later or more "well" cut OEC( like dreamer's amazeballs OEC) won't really be affected as much or at all. Her new OEC is a great example of being able to go a little lower in color and still be really white, I think she estimated hers to be a K, but it definitely does not look it.

I do agree, the higher colored OEC(think it was an H) does have a hefty price-not that the size and color don't merit the price, but still it's a lot of money. My diamond, which has almost the exact same dimensions, higher clarity(VS1 vs SI1), but a lower color of L was less than half the price. That's quite a lot of $$$. I think if you can find a well cut OEC, you will be able to go lower in color without seeing the yellow. Hopefully if you do go lower in color you can bring it in to be seen or have some videos and pictures done so that your husband and you can see it in different lighting to ensure it won't show yellow.
 
Thanks so much. Your ring is gorgeous!! Okay - now I feel a bit sick.. less than half? ugh!! I do love everything about this stone - but most of all the cut/facet pattern... I think seeing yours - I could go down to save some money.. It does kill me b/c I have seen some amazing diamonds on here (some 4.5+) carat and did see that some were a lot less than this one. I def love the dimensions of yours and that one.. I think any bigger would be too big for me. Plus - would anyone seriously know the difference (except all of you PS's) :lol: Did you say that you saw this one in person?? What did you think? Did it knock your socks off? Thx again for all the help.
 
PS what do you think of eg one (3.13) posted on site?
 
The size and color are a rare combination for old cuts, hence the price, but I can definitely understand your reservation with the price. I have not seen it in person, unfortunately. However skippy, gypsy, and the other PSers at the GTG in vegas saw it. Hopefully they will chime in. I have no doubt it's a complete show stopper.

The 3.13....I like the spread, faceting, and the depth is good. Plus, the price doesn't hurt. :$$): It's on par with what I ended up spending. The only thing is, the color. From the pictures, it looks like you will see the color. I would consider requesting some pictures in different lighting to see how the diamond's color plays in the different lighting. Or you could have it sent to you and play around with it in person. :naughty: The color is something that you and your hubby will have to determine if you like.
 
Armywife: Okay - I am struggling here... Would you spend that on that? I would in a heart beat if I wasn't conservative. Also, while I in NO WAY need bigger - I am thinking for that amount of money - that I should have a 6ct~ LOL - although I would not wear that. So if money was no object - would you go for it or wait for same dimensions, etc... but lower color that still is white? (for less)...

Dreamer D are you out there??? :?
 
I just wanted to chime in and say that not all old cut's suit being put in a bezel. My OMC did not react well at all to being bezeled. I have also bezeled a pair of OEC's where one was not affected by the bezel but the other that was a bit shallower did become a bit darker under the table in certain lighting situations.

Regarding color you really need to see them in person and preferable play with them for a couple of days in different lightning situation's. My OMC is an H and I have an OEC that is an I but I actually preferred the color of an M/N OEC that I used to have. Unless you were comparing it directly to a whiter stone it faced up completely white (it also had strong blue flour) but it had that special something. The closest I can describe it is that it had more visual depth due to the color. Although I will say that I fell in love with a 2ct F VS1 strong blue fluorescence OMC :love: , it practically glowed. Unfortunately the price went through the roof (was at an auction where it quadrupled in price).
 
Hey - Thx Natascha! Why do you think it went through the roof?
 
It sounds like you are contemplating spending about $50k on a 3c H OEC? Am I reading this right? And I think I know the stone you're talking about.

I have seen near colorless OEC's and I also have a 3c EGL K (more like a GIA M in my opinion) OEC.

My stone is ivory in some lights and in others it's white blue. Totally varies.

I don't think I'd spend 50k on a 3c H OEC (to your other thread's Q). It's a personal thing and that stone is really lovely but that's just way out of the range of what I'd want to spend on ONE item.

I've had colorless diamonds and I spent 6 years with a J RB H&A stone which to me faced up very white in many lights but from side had a slight warm tinge. OEC's to me hold and reflect color a little more than RB's do so that's something to consider IMO. I also think that they have charm to them with some of that warmth. An icy white OEC would probably not be my thing. I like the near colorless range, but even an I/J would be great. I think I'd keep looking for something like a J which might be 'best of both worlds' but not quite at that $50k mark. Do you feel like you HAVE To buy now?
 
Emeraldcutlover|1343860798|3244546 said:
Hey - Thx Natascha! Why do you think it went through the roof?
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Well I live in Sweden where old cuts have not made a comeback yet so often an appraiser will set the starting bid lower for old cuts. Abroad the prices have gone up and that has resulted in some professional buyers bidding higher than the local population and then sending them abroad to be sold :(sad . Last year my jeweler bought and then sent three old cuts above 2ct abroad to be sold because the prices are just so much better.

Add to that that this stone was a very well cut 2ct OMC (I spent over an hour with it on two separate occasions looking at it in all lighting situations) and a rare F color with VS1 clarity. It is pretty hard too find bigger old cuts with those specs so it drivs up the price even more.
 
Hi Mara and Natascha: I don't know why some of my posts are not going thru! :cry: In any event, Mara - No - no need to buy right away. I'm open to looking a bit more since it is so much. I do like the higher color though.. does not have to be super white but on the white side. I just really loved the pattern. Natascha - thank you for all your info.. That is just crazy! Why can't I have an obsession with pots and pans or something???? :roll:
 
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