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Now some stores are putting up signs denying customers who wear masks

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
34,909
This is not freedom. This is not American ways. I just can't handle all this nonsense over wearing a mask, an act that can protect others in your community. How divided we are on this simple act is disgusting in my opinion, and I rarely get angry about what other people choose to do...
I agree. This is not freedom or the "American" way. Not as I see it at least. These are some people warping the principles of freedom but in reality it's just their foolish ignorance and selfishness ruling their behavior. And it is going to end up causing harm to many innocent people. It is disgusting not to wear a mask when around others.
Freedom my foot.
One should not be free to infect others.

And, as a Jewish american, I find the whole Nazi comparison people are throwing around disgusting. Being asked to wear a mask to protect others around you in the time of a pandemic when we have a deadly virus with no vaccine and no cure cannot be compared to the systematic goal of exterminating jews. This president has brought antisemitism out of the shadows and cultivated its growth. He has brought hate towards many many minority groups out of the shadows.
Agree. I wince whenever I hear someone compare this to the Nazis and what they did. Unfreakingbelievable. Really? They have no clue what the Nazis were about then. :(


Wearing a mask is anti Nazi behavior. It saves lives. Not wearing masks (when around others) is reckless and dangerous and negligent behavior.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
34,909
@lovedogs, I am deeply offended by the penis cartoon, they couldn't make it bigger, give it a little girth?! Poor little cartoon man.
That's because (if I dare guess) those who refuse to wear masks have very little penises indeed. Just my guess. :wink2:
The smaller the penis the more one rebels against wearing a mask crying it infringes upon their "freedom".
 

Tonks

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
435
Hey, if I can wear a mask while exercising (and I have asthma that is acting up now too) I don't want to hear the grown babies complaining.

If you cannot wear a mask then stay the he** home. I say that with respect. :/
Care about others. Let's work together in getting through this.


pushups.png

legpress.png
What kind of mask are you wearing to exercise? I think I will need one for exercise for when our dojang reopens. All the ones I have now are fine for general purpose, but I would not want to breathe heavily in them because they collapse against my mouth on the inhale. It seems like something that stands away from your mouth/nose would work better (and I like how the one you show here ties around the back of the head rather than the ears—those hurt after a while).
 

CSpan

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
545
This is my favorite mask meme. Hope no one is offended by the cartoon penis.
download.jpeg

Everytime I see someone with their mask under their nose I picture this. Makes me much less furious in the moment.
I think the exact same thing and it is always men at least th oi y I have seen. I cannot unsee it, if your nose is out your little widdly is poking over the top and it makes me crack up as well as want to tell people to put their dicks away.

I have been tempted to print that cartoon
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
34,909
What kind of mask are you wearing to exercise? I think I will need one for exercise for when our dojang reopens. All the ones I have now are fine for general purpose, but I would not want to breathe heavily in them because they collapse against my mouth on the inhale. It seems like something that stands away from your mouth/nose would work better (and I like how the one you show here ties around the back of the head rather than the ears—those hurt after a while).
Hi @Tonks, my DH made my masks for me from a polypropylene material he ordered online. If you would like I will ask him if he has a pattern I can share with you. I agree the ear loops just hurt my ears and the ones that tie behind the head are way more comfy. It is still harder to breathe with the mask than no mask but that just means it is doing its job.
 

Demon

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
911
And another suggestion is adjustable ear loops, @Tonks . I've bought 2 from this site & they're pretty comfortable.

 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
980
I KNOW I'm going to regret posting this, but I don't get it. Why does someone who is healthy, unexposed and not coughing and sneezing required to wear a mask? And I'm not talking about people on the front lines, I'm talking about average people at grocery stores and gas stations. Masks are a panacea, they only protect the wearer from not exposing others to their emissions. They DON'T PROTECT THE WEARER FROM CONTRACTING THE VIRUS. Why should healthy people be wearing masks if it doesn't even protect them? I don't view it as selfish in the least. Selfish are those that are trying to impose their flawed understanding of this virus spread on others. Perhaps in certain overpopulated and overcrowded cities it could help, but it wouldn't help more than if the sick and compromised stayed home and the rest could go about their business. Has no one heard of the greater good? Is the destruction of the American economy and the majority of its populace worth less than 100k lives?

Speaking of selfishness, what a monstrous hypocrisy. Most humans don't care about anyone else, only themselves. I see proof of that every single day, starting with our reality star not-so-presidential Dumbo. He is a clueless ego-maniacal embarrassment to the Office of our revered nation. What this country REALLY needs are more people capable of critical thinking and not falling prey to media hype.

I see idiots every day wearing their magical masks while riding their bikes alone, or driving alone, while not wearing gloves. They touch public things and then touch their face. How does the mask protect them then????? I'll tell you. It DOESN'T. If you stand far enough away from others, don't touch things and don't touch your face, you'll be fine.

I realize that businesses have to protect their clientele and comply with nonsensical mandates, but that doesn't mean we have to swallow the hype wholeheartedly and without reservation.
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
599
I KNOW I'm going to regret posting this, but I don't get it. Why does someone who is healthy, unexposed and not coughing and sneezing required to wear a mask? And I'm not talking about people on the front lines, I'm talking about average people at grocery stores and gas stations. Masks are a panacea, they only protect the wearer from not exposing others to their emissions. They DON'T PROTECT THE WEARER FROM CONTRACTING THE VIRUS. Why should healthy people be wearing masks if it doesn't even protect them? I don't view it as selfish in the least. Selfish are those that are trying to impose their flawed understanding of this virus spread on others. Perhaps in certain overpopulated and overcrowded cities it could help, but it wouldn't help more than if the sick and compromised stayed home and the rest could go about their business. Has no one heard of the greater good? Is the destruction of the American economy and the majority of its populace worth less than 100k lives?

Speaking of selfishness, what a monstrous hypocrisy. Most humans don't care about anyone else, only themselves. I see proof of that every single day, starting with our reality star not-so-presidential Dumbo. He is a clueless ego-maniacal embarrassment to the Office of our revered nation. What this country REALLY needs are more people capable of critical thinking and not falling prey to media hype.

I see idiots every day wearing their magical masks while riding their bikes alone, or driving alone, while not wearing gloves. They touch public things and then touch their face. How does the mask protect them then????? I'll tell you. It DOESN'T. If you stand far enough away from others, don't touch things and don't touch your face, you'll be fine.

I realize that businesses have to protect their clientele and comply with nonsensical mandates, but that doesn't mean we have to swallow the hype wholeheartedly and without reservation.
Some percentage of people infected with this virus - estimated currently as 25%-35% - are either asymptomatic or have such mild symptoms that they don't realize they have it. They think they're healthy, but they're not, and they're spreading it - quite widely if they're not wearing a mask. Everyone else who is infected becomes contagious several days before they have any symptoms to signal them that they are infected. People who have been around any of these people assume they haven't been exposed because the person wasn't symptomatic at the moment, but they actually have been exposed. It is spread not just by coughing or sneezing; it is spread by singing, shouting, talking, and even just breathing. That is why everybody needs to wear masks when around others who are not part of their household - somewhat to protect themselves from others, but mainly because it is their duty to protect others from themselves, as there is no way to know that they haven't been exposed and that they are not infected. Even a negative test is not foolproof - the rate of false negatives with the current test is 25%-50%. There is absolutely nothing nonsensical about mandates to wear masks - they work.

It is also untrue that they don't protect the wearer from others. Most of the protection in an interaction does come from the infected person wearing the mask, but if worn correctly, the mask on the uninfected provides some protection as well. All indications up to this point show a correlation between how much of this virus a person is initially exposed to and their severity of illness - in other words, the more viral particles that get into someone's system that first time, the sicker they are likely to get. This is critical. Therefore, even if a mask doesn't prevent all the virus from getting in, it is very likely to reduce how much gets in, which increases the chances that the person either is able to completely eradicate it before actual illness or has a milder case.

Look up the analyses of why poorer, more densely crowded island nations in Asia are doing way better than western nations in terms of rate of infections, severe illness, and deaths per capita - darn near everyone is wearing a mask when in public.

Look up the recent studies showing that, among the personnel in the busiest hospital in Berlin that saw the very worst-off patients in all of Germany, the rate of infection based on antibody tests was significantly lower than in the general population of the city - despite having the most prolonged and intense exposures to this virus of anyone. Why? Masks and other personal protective gear.

Look up the same type of studies on personnel in hard-hit hospitals in New York City. Same results.

If you are deeply concerned about the economy and about supporting as many people being able to work and provide for their families as possible, then wear a mask and support others in doing so, because that in addition to as much distancing as each individual can manage is what will allow the country to operate as close to normal as we reasonably can until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. Without masks and distancing as much as one can, case numbers will again skyrocket, perhaps in different cities/states this time, overwhelming hospitals in those areas, unacceptable numbers of people will die needlessly, and businesses and individuals who need to work will suffer one way or another, because either lockdowns will have to be enacted again to bring the situation under control, or people will just be too terrified to go to work or to shop or to patronize other businesses.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,454
I KNOW I'm going to regret posting this, but I don't get it. Why does someone who is healthy, unexposed and not coughing and sneezing required to wear a mask? And I'm not talking about people on the front lines, I'm talking about average people at grocery stores and gas stations. Masks are a panacea, they only protect the wearer from not exposing others to their emissions. They DON'T PROTECT THE WEARER FROM CONTRACTING THE VIRUS. Why should healthy people be wearing masks if it doesn't even protect them? I don't view it as selfish in the least. Selfish are those that are trying to impose their flawed understanding of this virus spread on others. Perhaps in certain overpopulated and overcrowded cities it could help, but it wouldn't help more than if the sick and compromised stayed home and the rest could go about their business. Has no one heard of the greater good? Is the destruction of the American economy and the majority of its populace worth less than 100k lives?

Speaking of selfishness, what a monstrous hypocrisy. Most humans don't care about anyone else, only themselves. I see proof of that every single day, starting with our reality star not-so-presidential Dumbo. He is a clueless ego-maniacal embarrassment to the Office of our revered nation. What this country REALLY needs are more people capable of critical thinking and not falling prey to media hype.

I see idiots every day wearing their magical masks while riding their bikes alone, or driving alone, while not wearing gloves. They touch public things and then touch their face. How does the mask protect them then????? I'll tell you. It DOESN'T. If you stand far enough away from others, don't touch things and don't touch your face, you'll be fine.

I realize that businesses have to protect their clientele and comply with nonsensical mandates, but that doesn't mean we have to swallow the hype wholeheartedly and without reservation.
:doh:

REALLY? :nono:

Where have you been?
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
980
Some percentage of people infected with this virus - estimated currently as 25%-35% - are either asymptomatic or have such mild symptoms that they don't realize they have it. They think they're healthy, but they're not, and they're spreading it - quite widely if they're not wearing a mask. Everyone else who is infected becomes contagious several days before they have any symptoms to signal them that they are infected. People who have been around any of these people assume they haven't been exposed because the person wasn't symptomatic at the moment, but they actually have been exposed. It is spread not just by coughing or sneezing; it is spread by singing, shouting, talking, and even just breathing. That is why everybody needs to wear masks when around others who are not part of their household - somewhat to protect themselves from others, but mainly because it is their duty to protect others from themselves, as there is no way to know that they haven't been exposed and that they are not infected. Even a negative test is not foolproof - the rate of false negatives with the current test is 25%-50%. There is absolutely nothing nonsensical about mandates to wear masks - they work.

It is also untrue that they don't protect the wearer from others. Most of the protection in an interaction does come from the infected person wearing the mask, but if worn correctly, the mask on the uninfected provides some protection as well. All indications up to this point show a correlation between how much of this virus a person is initially exposed to and their severity of illness - in other words, the more viral particles that get into someone's system that first time, the sicker they are likely to get. This is critical. Therefore, even if a mask doesn't prevent all the virus from getting in, it is very likely to reduce how much gets in, which increases the chances that the person either is able to completely eradicate it before actual illness or has a milder case.

Look up the analyses of why poorer, more densely crowded island nations in Asia are doing way better than western nations in terms of rate of infections, severe illness, and deaths per capita - darn near everyone is wearing a mask when in public.

Look up the recent studies showing that, among the personnel in the busiest hospital in Berlin that saw the very worst-off patients in all of Germany, the rate of infection based on antibody tests was significantly lower than in the general population of the city - despite having the most prolonged and intense exposures to this virus of anyone. Why? Masks and other personal protective gear.

Look up the same type of studies on personnel in hard-hit hospitals in New York City. Same results.

If you are deeply concerned about the economy and about supporting as many people being able to work and provide for their families as possible, then wear a mask and support others in doing so, because that in addition to as much distancing as each individual can manage is what will allow the country to operate as close to normal as we reasonably can until there is a vaccine or effective treatment. Without masks and distancing as much as one can, case numbers will again skyrocket, perhaps in different cities/states this time, overwhelming hospitals in those areas, unacceptable numbers of people will die needlessly, and businesses and individuals who need to work will suffer one way or another, because either lockdowns will have to be enacted again to bring the situation under control, or people will just be too terrified to go to work or to shop or to patronize other businesses.
I agree that some people are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms and think they're healthy, but they're not. However, not being in close proximity to them, especially in an enclosed environment, is sufficient to stop transmission. Regardless of how much you may be sneezing and coughing, with or without a mask, having Covid or not, if I am standing 15-20 feet away from you and not touching anything you've infested, I'm ok. My SIL is a frontline ICU nurse in charge of her department in one of the largest hospitals in LA. She has seen coworkers wearing full gear come down with the virus. The gear isn't as protective as distance. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the luxury of being able to distance, but we do. Further, comparing what personnel in hospitals are going through as opposed to people out doing their shopping are vastly different scenarios and ought not be compared to each other....you know, the apples and oranges thing??

Masks are a panacea, they make common folk feel like they're doing something. They are not. The real difference maker is distance. I'm sorry you and others feel differently. I don't think there is such a thing as an "unacceptable number of people dying". Hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, starvation, ethnic cleansing, malaria, tsunamis, floods and many more things happen on a daily basis, killing thousands of people, and no one here in the US bats an eye. Now, something is happening that might affect YOU and NOW YOU CARE? That's utter hypocritical BS. You either care about all of it (human welfare), or you don't care. I've been reading this and other forums long enough to know that the issues that happen to other countries, and other beings, matter not a whit to most Americans.

@kenny I'm sorry you're confused, but I'm not surprised....
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
599
I agree that some people are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms and think they're healthy, but they're not. However, not being in close proximity to them, especially in an enclosed environment, is sufficient to stop transmission. Regardless of how much you may be sneezing and coughing, with or without a mask, having Covid or not, if I am standing 15-20 feet away from you and not touching anything you've infested, I'm ok. My SIL is a frontline ICU nurse in charge of her department in one of the largest hospitals in LA. She has seen coworkers wearing full gear come down with the virus. The gear isn't as protective as distance. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the luxury of being able to distance, but we do. Further, comparing what personnel in hospitals are going through as opposed to people out doing their shopping are vastly different scenarios and ought not be compared to each other....you know, the apples and oranges thing??

Masks are a panacea, they make common folk feel like they're doing something. They are not. The real difference maker is distance. I'm sorry you and others feel differently. I don't think there is such a thing as an "unacceptable number of people dying". Hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, starvation, ethnic cleansing, malaria, tsunamis, floods and many more things happen on a daily basis, killing thousands of people, and no one here in the US bats an eye. Now, something is happening that might affect YOU and NOW YOU CARE? That's utter hypocritical BS. You either care about all of it (human welfare), or you don't care. I've been reading this and other forums long enough to know that the issues that happen to other countries, and other beings, matter not a whit to most Americans.

@kenny I'm sorry you're confused, but I'm not surprised....
Wow, you're making all kinds of really unflattering assumptions about me that are completely unfounded. Take a look at my post history, and the posts I've liked of others, and it's quite clear that I care deeply about all kinds of things happening to every kind of people (and other animals) everywhere. You know nothing of the agony that I experience on a f*cking daily basis, and have my whole life, at what I see go on in this world. That's true of many, if not all, of the others posting here about masks. I mean, c'mon - have you met @missy? You're going to sit there and try to tell me she only cares about masks because she cares about herself and no one else? Do you have any clue how offensive that is?

Yes, distance is the most important defense. No one here is claiming otherwise. In my first reply to you, I repeatedly mentioned distancing as much as one can. If you look at my posts and the posts of the others here on other COVID threads, we clearly advocate strongly for distancing. But there are practical limits to that if people are to try to go back to work. Office spaces are only so big. Classrooms are only so big. The local DMV office is only so big. Stores and restaurants are only so big. There is only so far away that a hairstylist can stand and still succeed in cutting someone's hair. And I don't know about where you live, but I can assure you that where I am, people are crowding in everywhere, refusing to keep distance from others in stores. If someone in my area needs groceries - especially a vulnerable elderly person who is on a fixed income and can't afford the extra fees, tips, and inflated item prices charged to get them delivered to their home - they have no choice but to go in that store, where everyone crowds in as if business is normal, doesn't wear a mask, and reacts with refusal and hostility to the politest request to please back away.

Look, if it were up to me, if I were in charge of things, we'd all stay in shelter-in-place like we had been in most places, but with more financial support to those unable to work, like they've done in many countries in Europe, to continue to leverage distancing as long as possible. But I'm not in charge, and that's not what's happening. Too many people are in economic disaster because of how we run things in the US - no decent social safety net, too much inequality, too many people living at the absolute margins - and the wealthy are too much in charge and want the slaves back to work to boost their profits and their stock portfolios, so everyone else has decided that we're opening up. And too many people are acting like this is just not happening, or that it's over already, so they are going out even for things that really aren't necessary, they are crowding into stores, they are having parties, they are getting in other people's faces, all without distancing. Others are having to go back to work in work settings where either adequate distancing is impossible or where employers just frankly don't want to be bothered to arrange things to allow distancing, or at least where I am, employers are actually insisting on NOT allowing distancing OR masks as an ideological statement of some sort. And if the employees don't go back to work and put up with it, their unemployment benefits are cut off. So yes - in an ideal world, we would all be able to adequately distance to the point where masks wouldn't be necessary, but we are in circumstances that are far from ideal. So.......people at the very least need to put on the damn mask!

Case in point: did you hear about the not one, but two, hairstylists in Missouri? Both work for the same Great Clips salon. Both came to work and worked all day cutting customers' hair for several days in a row symptomatic, fully aware that they had it. Between the two of them, they exposed upwards of 100 people. (One of the two of them, as if she felt that she hadn't accomplished enough harm already, went to several stores and the local Dairy Queen during that time, too.) Now, due to the fact that they were required to, and compliant in, wearing masks the whole time, and customers were required to as well, local public health officials are crossing their fingers that this won't be a complete and total shit-show. They stated clearly that the mask-wearing should help - that's coming from public health officials, the people extensively educated in this stuff and who do it for a living. So this is the reality we're dealing with. Obviously, they shouldn't have come to work sick, but they did. And even if they had taken off once they were sick, they still would have been contagious before they were symptomatic, and if they and their customers hadn't been wearing masks, the situation definitely would be worse.

Now just so you fully understand where I'm coming from, my husband and I have sheltered in place quite strictly and will continue to do so for the forseeable future, so yes, I advocate distancing first. So if all I cared about was what affects me personally, I wouldn't spend the shit-tons of time and energy that I do online trying to convince others to: distance, for crying out loud; and if you're not going to distance, or if you can't, or if you can't be sure that those around you will, wear the freakin' mask. I could just blow it all off, because it will have little effect on me or mine, since we're not going around others anyway, unless there is an emergency of some kind. But I do care about others, in the US and elsewhere. Lots of people who are themselves high-risk or have contact with others who are high-risk do not have the luxury of avoidance that I do, so I am advocating for their sake so much more than mine. So, frankly, you know where you can put your accusations of hypocrisy.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
34,909
@SandyinAnaheim, You are one of my favorite people here and even though we disagree that isn't changing.
I think we have much to learn about this novel virus but given what we know now I do believe wearing masks help slow the spread of Covid 19 by mainly protecting others (if one is wearing anything but an N95 mask).

I agree wearing face masks is just one part of the picture and social distancing and frequent handwashing is critical. Wearing face masks doesn't take away the need for social distancing or frequent hand washing. But it is an important (IMO) part of the equation to slow/prevent the spread of Covid 19. I also agree wearing masks is not the most important part of this equation but nonetheless I think it is still important. I will explain below.

I agree with you that the chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is minimal if one can maintain an appropriate social distance (which I believe is up for question and most certainly greater than 6 feet). It depends on time exposed so if one is passing by another who is infected at an appropriate distance chances for infection is minimal.

I also agree with you that wearing a mask will not take the place of proper social distancing or handwashing. Which are critical protocols.

However, since we don't live in a perfect world where one can maintain proper social distancing at all times and life will be getting back to being more crowded I think wearing masks does help prevent the spread of Covid 19. If there is no one close by I agree one can go out without a mask and not risk infecting others simply because there is no one to infect. Greg and I have gone out cycling without wearing our masks because we stay away from people. We carry our masks with us just in case we enter a more populated area where we cannot maintain proper social distancing.

Just look at the countries where wearing masks is the norm and how well they have done during the pandemic compared to the USA.

There are two ways wearing masks help.

1. We know Covid 19 is spread by droplets. Wearing a mask can help prevent the spread of those droplets. We all agree there can be a large percentage of people who are asymptomatic or have few symptoms and these people are responsible for a large degree of the spread of this virus. If one is wearing a mask and one coughs or sneezes any kind of simple cloth mask is good for source control. The mask creates humidity and this humidity prevents virus containing droplets from turning into droplet nuclei and this allows the fabric of the mask to block the droplets.

So in this way the mask acts as a physical barrier to protect others from viral and bacterial particulates. So by simply wearing a barrier to the nose and mouth it helps prevent infecting others. Cloth masks help protect the environment from the wearer.

2. Depending on the material of the mask it does help (to some degree) the wearer. N95 (and perhaps KN95) masks are more protective to the wearer than those who are wearing cloth masks but still there is some protection. An N95 mask offers more protection because it filters out both large and small particles when the wearer inhales. So N95 masks protect the wearer from the environment.


"Researchers from the National Institutes of Health used lasers to illuminate and count how many droplets of saliva were flung into the air by a person talking with and without a face mask. The paper was only recently published officially, but I saw a YouTube video showing the experiment in early March. The results are shockingly obvious in the video. When the researcher used a simple cloth face cover, nearly all the droplets were blocked.

The light-scattering experiment cannot see “micro-droplets” that are smaller than 5 microns and could contain some viral particles. But experts don’t think that these are responsible for much COVID-19 transmission.

While just how much of a role these small particles play in transmission remains to be seen, recent research suggests that cloth masks are also effective at reducing the spread of these smaller particles. In a paper that has not yet been peer-reviewed, researchers found that micro-droplets fell out of the air within 1.5 meters of the person who was wearing a mask, versus 5 meters for those not wearing masks. When combined with social distancing, this suggests that masks can effectively reduce transmission via micro-droplets.
"




"snip...
(there is) significant impact under (near) universal masking when at least 80% of a population is wearing masks, versus minimal impact when only 50% or less of the population is wearing masks.
These effects hold even at the lower filtering rates of homemade masks. To validate these theoretical models, we compare their predictions against a new empirical data set we have collected that includes whether regions have universal masking cultures or policies, their daily case growth rates, and their percentage reduction from peak daily case growth rates. Results show a near perfect correlation between early universal masking and successful suppression of daily case growth rates and/or reduction from peak daily case growth rates, as predicted by our theoretical simulations.
"


@SandyinAnaheim I agree with you here.

Most humans don't care about anyone else, only themselves. I see proof of that every single day, starting with our reality star not-so-presidential Dumbo. He is a clueless ego-maniacal embarrassment to the Office of our revered nation. What this country REALLY needs are more people capable of critical thinking and not falling prey to media hype.
You are right and that is another reason we both love animals more than (many) people. But with respect to @OboeGal she is a wonderful human being like you are. She is definitely not being hypocritical in her behavior. She cares about others (including animals) and is one of the good ones. There is a reason both of you are 2 of my favorite posters here and I have good judgment so I am not wrong. Sometimes I am but not about this.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
21,372
OboeGal is very thoughtful. You are one of my favorite posters as you are one of missy's, Sandy. I agree with OboeGal that if you looked at her history you would be very impressed. Not everyone would be, but you have enough discernment to be.
 

Demon

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
911
@OboeGal I only wish I could like these last couple of posts more than once. Wearing a mask helps protect the other person, not yourself. And if that's viewed as being selfish, I just don't know what to think anymore! (The person NOT wearing a mask is the one I'm looking at as being selfish.) It does also help protect you, but to a lesser degree, as you've pointed out. People do NOT keep their distance, especially those that have decided this virus is not a big deal, and if you do get it, you'll be fine in a few days. And if you're out riding a bike and wearing a mask? (Who cares??) You don't know what you'll come across when you turn a corner, and yep, they're saying droplets from a cough or sneeze or heavy breathing (as in exercising) can hang in the air for quite a while. Distancing at the grocery store? With the narrow aisles and corners everywhere? Doesn't happen. I will happily wear my mask for as long as I feel I need to, and hope that people care enough about the welfare of others to do the same. We can't help hurricanes, mudslides, cancer, etc. But we can try to help spreading this virus that has killed so many already. And yes, I wear gloves too, and wash my hands as soon as possible.
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
980
Masks are a panacea, they make common folk feel like they're doing something. They are not. The real difference maker is distance. I'm sorry you and others feel differently. I don't think there is such a thing as an "unacceptable number of people dying". Hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, starvation, ethnic cleansing, malaria, tsunamis, floods and many more things happen on a daily basis, killing thousands of people, and no one here in the US bats an eye. Now, something is happening that might affect YOU and NOW YOU CARE? That's utter hypocritical BS. You either care about all of it (human welfare), or you don't care. I've been reading this and other forums long enough to know that the issues that happen to other countries, and other beings, matter not a whit to most Americans.
@OboeGal my comment above could have been worded better. Only the bolded part was aimed specifically to posters on this thread. I am usually very careful not to use the word YOU so as to not make anyone feel I am singling them out, I typically use the word ONE to make it general. But that did not work in this post. Believe me when I tell you that I was not aiming ANYTHING at you personally. I was speaking in general terms about society not caring about others, and now that something is affecting them, NOW they care?? That's what I find so inherently distasteful. I am no shrinking violet and if my intention was to offend you personally, I would name you and there would be no question I was talking to you personally. But in this case, I wasn't.

However, as I read through this thread I was stunned at how many people are spouting judgmental and offensive BS. Specifically:

* selfish a**holes;
* Stoopid is as stoopid does [sic];
* I wear a mask to protect you because I’m not an insane person;
* I don't want to hear the grown babies complaining. If you cannot wear a mask then stay the he** home;
* Super frustrating how there are people who don’t give a da*n about others...willful ignorance; I think it is selfish to go out in public without a mask;
* I just can't handle all this nonsense over wearing a mask, an act that can protect others in your community. How divided we are on this simple act is disgusting in my opinion, and I rarely get angry about what other people choose to do;
* These are some people warping the principles of freedom but in reality it's just their foolish ignorance and selfishness ruling their behavior. And it is going to end up causing harm to many innocent people. It is disgusting not to wear a mask when around others. Freedom my foot. One should not be free to infect others;
* Not wearing masks (when around others) is reckless and dangerous and negligent behavior.

By the time I read all of the above and posted, I was pretty heated, but not specifically at anyone. I recognize that all of the comments are a snippet of what the country/world is feeling, and I simply don't agree, but I was taken aback by the vehemence which doesn't take into account any other viewpoints.

My point was, and is, that most humans don't care about anyone else. Not to get too philosophical, but I find saying that one is wearing a mask because they care about others is disingenuous, at best. People care about themselves and their families and wear masks to protect themselves. If people really cared about others, as is being strongly suggested in this and other threads, the world would be a FAR different place. This current feigned philanthropic attitude permeating the nation is a farce, and temporary. That's what I was calling out, the sheer hypocrisy of it all. The media telling us we're all in this together is brainwashing imo, trying to get people to feel kinship with others and generate social responsibility where it didn't exist before, and it bothers me greatly, because it is FAKE.

I've been back to work since April 1st. I see 4-6 people per day and haven't changed my procedures in any way except to use my own leashes rather than theirs. As you (general you) may have deduced, I lean towards misanthropy. As such, I've been practicing social distancing for decades and don't like anyone in close proximity to me, including my clients. If anything, now others are practicing what I've been doing for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time, and I'm REALLY good with that. I don't feel the need to wear a mask around my clients and if they wish to do so, fine by me. None of my clients are yelling, singing or spitting at me, and we exchange pets outdoors. I am participating by practicing strict isolation and don't go to any stores, parks, beaches, or anywhere where there are groups of people. To imply that those of us that practice safety in their/our own way are selfish or stupid is nothing short of offensive and judgmental. I hope that clarifies my position.
 
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cmd2014

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
2,530
@SandyinAnaheim

I am a health care worker so I get daily internal updates on the virus, including rates and means of transmission and best practices for protection from transmission.

Both the CDC and the WHO have estimated (independently) that 40% of the virus is spread through community transmission by people who are asymptomatic (no cough, no sore throat, no symptoms at all, and who DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE SICK). So all those people running around without masks thinking "you're over-reacting - I'm not sick" don't actually know that unless they have been recently tested - which let me tell you having had it done weekly for a while isn't super fun. This is a dangerous disease exactly because people are super contagious well before they are sick and because a good percentage are super contagious without ever having symptoms.

Masks don't just protect people from droplets spraying into the air with each and every breath that they exhale and every word that is spoken (waiting to be inhaled by unsuspecting people) - they protect every surface that people pass by. Surfaces that people touch. Surfaces that people touch and then eat (like food in the grocery store), and surfaces that people touch and then unknowingly touch their faces after - which is the most common means of transmission. So by having everyone wearing a mask we are dramatically reducing not only the dose of exposure to droplets that we may be exposed to while walking through air that other people have been in (because if everyone is wearing a mask, that mask will catch the bulk of what is exhaled, sneezed, coughed, or expelled through talking - you'd be super grossed out to learn how much spit gets sprayed in just a normal conversation), but also how many surfaces are exposed to people's snot and saliva (just through normal breathing) and contaminated. Social distancing helps, but it's not the whole picture. You're still spraying EVERYTHING you pass by with live virus just by breathing (if you happen to have it) where it will sit just waiting to be brushed up against by someone else. So is everyone else. So if everyone wears a mask, we have just dramatically cut the number of virus cells available to infect people. Masks are not just a panacea to make people feel better. They are proven to be a moderately effective measure - but ONLY IF EVERYONE DOES IT. So yes, I do think that people who are refusing are either incredibly misinformed or selfish. Unless you are a medical professional with specific education and training droplet borne viral transmission, you don't get to decide how to "practice safety in their/our own way" because you clearly have no idea what you are actually talking about.

If you are walking people's dogs, you are breathing onto their coats. Especially when you bend down to clip them on the leash. I'm assuming you're not 6 feet away from the dogs when you do this. Are the dogs being washed before being sent home? Are their collars being sanitized? If not, this has been shown to be a means of transmission. Saliva stays on pet hair (and hard surfaces) long enough to infect other people for quite a surprising amount of time - it's why people who are self isolating need to also stay away from family pets. You may have some legal liability there if you get sick (like those of us who run businesses do if we are not following proper sanitation protocols) and/or spread something to others.

As for health care workers, health care workers are at risk despite precautions because of the constant exposure, the dose of exposure, and the fact that even trained health professionals mess up sometimes when taking off PPE (and unintentionally exposing themselves). Plus, we have been desperately short of PPE so many nurses and doctors are being asked to resuse stuff that is meant to be single use only and to wear dirty equipment long past when it would be expected to keep them safe (masks stop working when they become wet, gloves are only meant to be worn once, gowns are single use items that people are being asked to reuse, none of it is ok or safe what they are being asked to do and everyone on this planet knows it). But they are still showing up and doing their jobs. These are the sacrifices they are making to keep you safe. It is disheartening to be away from family, taking risks with your life and your family's life, and asking people to do such a small thing to help and to hear so much misinformation being thrown around. This isn't a political issue. It's a life or death one. Viruses don't give a damn about personal freedom or idiot Republican presidents who talk out of their ass. They care about propagating in the most efficient way possible, which means spreading and killing people. And not just the old or the sick or the vulnerable. Children are being left with permanent neurological disorders, teens are dying, as are the young.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,454
...
However, as I read through this thread I was stunned at how many people are spouting judgmental and offensive BS. Specifically:

* selfish a**holes;
* Stoopid is as stoopid does [sic];
* I wear a mask to protect you because I’m not an insane person;
* I don't want to hear the grown babies complaining. If you cannot wear a mask then stay the he** home;
* Super frustrating how there are people who don’t give a da*n about others...willful ignorance; I think it is selfish to go out in public without a mask;
* I just can't handle all this nonsense over wearing a mask, an act that can protect others in your community. How divided we are on this simple act is disgusting in my opinion, and I rarely get angry about what other people choose to do;
* These are some people warping the principles of freedom but in reality it's just their foolish ignorance and selfishness ruling their behavior. And it is going to end up causing harm to many innocent people. It is disgusting not to wear a mask when around others. Freedom my foot. One should not be free to infect others;
* Not wearing masks (when around others) is reckless and dangerous and negligent behavior.

...
Sandy, you are quoting people who are being the opposite of selfish.
They are doing/saying/supporting what the experts are telling us is best for public health during this pandemic.

All opinions are not equal.
Experts know more than non-experts.

Lives are at stake now, so let's listen to the experts.
 
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lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
11,046
I KNOW I'm going to regret posting this, but I don't get it. Why does someone who is healthy, unexposed and not coughing and sneezing required to wear a mask? And I'm not talking about people on the front lines, I'm talking about average people at grocery stores and gas stations. Masks are a panacea, they only protect the wearer from not exposing others to their emissions. They DON'T PROTECT THE WEARER FROM CONTRACTING THE VIRUS. Why should healthy people be wearing masks if it doesn't even protect them? I don't view it as selfish in the least. Selfish are those that are trying to impose their flawed understanding of this virus spread on others. Perhaps in certain overpopulated and overcrowded cities it could help, but it wouldn't help more than if the sick and compromised stayed home and the rest could go about their business. Has no one heard of the greater good? Is the destruction of the American economy and the majority of its populace worth less than 100k lives?

Speaking of selfishness, what a monstrous hypocrisy. Most humans don't care about anyone else, only themselves. I see proof of that every single day, starting with our reality star not-so-presidential Dumbo. He is a clueless ego-maniacal embarrassment to the Office of our revered nation. What this country REALLY needs are more people capable of critical thinking and not falling prey to media hype.

I see idiots every day wearing their magical masks while riding their bikes alone, or driving alone, while not wearing gloves. They touch public things and then touch their face. How does the mask protect them then????? I'll tell you. It DOESN'T. If you stand far enough away from others, don't touch things and don't touch your face, you'll be fine.

I realize that businesses have to protect their clientele and comply with nonsensical mandates, but that doesn't mean we have to swallow the hype wholeheartedly and without reservation.
I feel as though you are not understanding the science behind masks. They arent designed to protect the wearer, they are designed to protect everyone else from the droplets /sneezes/coughs of the wearer. If everyone wore a mask in public, things would be significantly better. .
 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
599
@OboeGal my comment above could have been worded better. Only the bolded part was aimed specifically to posters on this thread. I am usually very careful not to use the word YOU so as to not make anyone feel I am singling them out, I typically use the word ONE to make it general. But that did not work in this post. Believe me when I tell you that I was not aiming ANYTHING at you personally. I was speaking in general terms about society not caring about others, and now that something is affecting them, NOW they care?? That's what I find so inherently distasteful. I am no shrinking violet and if my intention was to offend you personally, I would name you and there would be no question I was talking to you personally. But in this case, I wasn't.

However, as I read through this thread I was stunned at how many people are spouting judgmental and offensive BS. Specifically:

* selfish a**holes;
* Stoopid is as stoopid does [sic];
* I wear a mask to protect you because I’m not an insane person;
* I don't want to hear the grown babies complaining. If you cannot wear a mask then stay the he** home;
* Super frustrating how there are people who don’t give a da*n about others...willful ignorance; I think it is selfish to go out in public without a mask;
* I just can't handle all this nonsense over wearing a mask, an act that can protect others in your community. How divided we are on this simple act is disgusting in my opinion, and I rarely get angry about what other people choose to do;
* These are some people warping the principles of freedom but in reality it's just their foolish ignorance and selfishness ruling their behavior. And it is going to end up causing harm to many innocent people. It is disgusting not to wear a mask when around others. Freedom my foot. One should not be free to infect others;
* Not wearing masks (when around others) is reckless and dangerous and negligent behavior.

By the time I read all of the above and posted, I was pretty heated, but not specifically at anyone. I recognize that all of the comments are a snippet of what the country/world is feeling, and I simply don't agree, but I was taken aback by the vehemence which doesn't take into account any other viewpoints.

My point was, and is, that most humans don't care about anyone else. Not to get too philosophical, but I find saying that one is wearing a mask because they care about others is disingenuous, at best. People care about themselves and their families and wear masks to protect themselves. If people really cared about others, as is being strongly suggested in this and other threads, the world would be a FAR different place. This current feigned philanthropic attitude permeating the nation is a farce, and temporary. That's what I was calling out, the sheer hypocrisy of it all. The media telling us we're all in this together is brainwashing imo, trying to get people to feel kinship with others and generate social responsibility where it didn't exist before, and it bothers me greatly, because it is FAKE.

I've been back to work since April 1st. I see 4-6 people per day and haven't changed my procedures in any way except to use my own leashes rather than theirs. As you (general you) may have deduced, I lean towards misanthropy. As such, I've been practicing social distancing for decades and don't like anyone in close proximity to me, including my clients. If anything, now others are practicing what I've been doing for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time, and I'm REALLY good with that. I don't feel the need to wear a mask around my clients and if they wish to do so, fine by me. None of my clients are yelling, singing or spitting at me, and we exchange pets outdoors. I am participating by practicing strict isolation and don't go to any stores, parks, beaches, or anywhere where there are groups of people. To imply that those of us that practice safety in their/our own way are selfish or stupid is nothing short of offensive and judgmental. I hope that clarifies my position.
Sandy, I very much appreciate you clarifying that you weren't addressing me personally - thank you.

I also appreciate the point that we shouldn't judge everyone who isn't wearing a mask as being willfully selfish. I sometimes forget that not everyone is following the science and research around this as closely as DH and I are; many people are likely simply not aware of how much universal mask-wearing would help. It sounds as if your decisions have been made that way - from a position that you are careful about distancing and have believed that that was adequate. I do hope you are taking in the information that we're sharing here, though, so that you can understand that, while your distancing measures are very, very important, helpful, and appreciated, they are not enough on their own when you are in public or dealing with your clients.

Please read what @cmd2014 posted carefully - she is right. My DH is a scientist and has spent his entire career as one of the top in his field in the world. (He would be so embarassed if he knew I posted that.) This is exactly what he researches - the science behind how both chemicals and pathogens that are dangerous, as well as radiation, spread through the air in different environments, infect or contaminate people, and contaminate surfaces, and how to assess what measures are the most or least beneficial to take in different situations to protect people, both at the population level and at the individual level. He has been clear that distancing is critical and comes first, and mask-wearing is second most important. I had to take our dog to the vet last week - luckily they are still doing curbside interaction with owners only - and he and I worked out how to reduce my risk and the risk to our dog, as well as to us through her, as best we could. I won't go into the whole procedure, but it included as critical elements me wearing a mask, a decision to refuse to turn her over to vet personnel if they weren't wearing masks (luckily they were), and then bathing her as soon as we got home, because of the risk of viral particles in her fur. Bear in mind that dogs can not only carry the virus on the fur and in their hoovery noses as fomites; it has unfortunately been determined that they, as well as cats and ferrets, can actually become infected and ill as well. One bulldog in the Netherlands had to be put to sleep because he was ill and could not breathe due to the combination of the virus and his brachycephalic facial structure. This is all to say that exchanging dogs with their owners, and working on/with those dogs, without a mask is a real risk of some seriousness to everyone involved - you, the owners, and the dogs. I urge you gently to reconsider. I asked my DH about this, and he agreed with me - if we were your clients, we would not continue to come to you with our dog if you weren't wearing a mask during your professional activities for the duration of the pandemic. And that would be a sad thing, because I see from your posts how much you love animals and especially dogs, and I would be willing to bet quite a bit that you're very, very good at what you do. :))

I also want to point out that even if not everyone else is wearing a mask, the more people that are, the fewer infections there will be, and that means possibly fewer deaths. Every bit helps. Perfect would be great, but we shouldn't let it be the enemy of good or better.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,454
Missy, thanks for posting that.
It's a VERY important read!
I wish everyone would read this.

New information, and several well-said points that had not occurred to me.
IMO it's important to stay hungry and alert for new information from many sources.
 
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TheGarnetGirl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 13, 2018
Messages
1,177
To be completely honest at times I can have an issue with authority and I really dont like that my state has now made wearing a mask in public mandated but I decide to ignore that feeling in my stomach that wants to not wear one just to "stick it to the man" because it pisses me off to be told how to live or what to do and instead I just focus on the fact that if all of us wear these annoying a$* masks that are hard to breath in and make me claustrophobic, then we will be effectively protecting eachother.

So lets all just wear the damn masks when we're inside stores or in places where constant distancing isn't an option.

Also hopefully you read that in a Roseanne type voice as the sass was just pooling out of me!

Lol I'm gonna make shirts that say:

"Just wear the goddamn mask"
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,454
... Lol I'm gonna make shirts that say: "Just wear the goddamn mask"
Kudos to you ... but please be careful.
Lots of "those people" have guns and these days are just jonesing for someone to 'Go ahead, make their day'. :blackeye:

 
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TheGarnetGirl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 13, 2018
Messages
1,177
Kudos to you ... but please be careful.
Lots of "those people" have guns and these days are just jonesing for someone to 'make their day'. :blackeye:
Eh, I live in NM.
Here they wouldnt be the only one that carries.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
6,194
Reading the article in the original post, sounds like some of the business owner/s banning masks have security concerns pertaining to their customers which cannot be ascertained while they’re wearing a mask. And that is reasonable; I can’t imagine being a bank teller in this environment.

Solution seems pretty simple: if you don’t like that business’ policies, “speak with your wallet” ... you ARE still free to shop elsewhere and don’t have to resort to childish name-calling, assumptions or judgements about others’ reasons for doing things.
 
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