Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Now a vendor is telling me I'm being too "academic"...

Anonymous6

Anonymous6

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
169
So, I inform him this is what I'm searching for word for word in the email:

Carat: 1.5-1.6 round at least Triple EX and preferably scoring between 1-2 on the Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA).. and if it so happens to be H&A noted by GIA or AGS (I'd rather not work with EGL), that would be great


He just claims that getting involved with the specs and being so detailed with them is "academic".....

I think the people I've been dealing with aren't used to people with knowledge about diamonds? Don't know what the crap is going on (referring to one of my earlier posts about the bad experience at a wholesaler)


Is it a bad thing to be too specific with specs? I know it's what the eyes see that matter... but specs are specs for a reason are they not?
 
Yeah, many buyers of diamonds are ignorant and sellers love that.

If your vendor gives you a hard time for not being ignorant enough tell her/him you will find another vendor.
 
I decided to just get his take on platinum vs white gold...

"I recommend platinum hands down, for the caliber of diamond you are looking for.

It is more valuable, heavier, etc. White gold is a dull yellow gold alloy that is stained white by plating it with rhodium. I think platinum is great, because it is platinum. I am happy to quote both. "
 
A lot of the benefit of HCA is for buying unseen.
Good retailers who know their stuff should not be discounted.
An ideal-scope can help - and unfortunately few retailers use such tools.

GIA and AGS do not note if a stone has H&A's and if it is laser inscribed H&A's it means absolutely nothing.
 
Also, if for some reason they're on PS reading my posts, hopefully they don't take it as insulting...
 
Personally, I found that B&M or mall stores were somewhat taken aback by the knowledge that I brought from this site. One of the sales ladies told me that I knew more than she did once I started asking her about angles and stuff.

Not sure if the US has Spence Diamonds but I walked into one here in Toronto and they're supposed to pride themselves in not being sales people. I had spoken to one of the consultants there and he pretty much immediately frowned and was offended when I told him that I was doing some comparison shopping and that I was looking to buy online. He walked me into his office and pretty much challenged me and asked what specs I was looking for and what kind of prices I was getting. I told him exactly what I had been researching and he just kept telling me he can do the same thing. The only problem was that all of the diamonds he offered to me were of lower specs but he insisted that you can't tell the difference anyways. So in the end, he did quote a diamond in my price range but it was of lower colour and clarity and was poorly cut (I memorized the angles and stuff to run HCA when I got home :P). He even had the nerve to go as far as calling me cocky because I "spoke the language of diamonds". That got me kind of upset and I just got outta there.

I'm so glad I found this site though. It's been so instrumental in my search and it gives me the confidence to know that I will be buying the right diamond at the right price.
 
well.. here's my honest opinion on this in general: the more I learn the more I realize how little I actually know and truly understand, about what is happening, about what the eyes see, which don't necessarily correlate.

memorizing a list of crown and pavilion angles is truly the least of it... I appreciate my jeweller *because* he is able to tell me when to stop reciting my college textbooks and *look* and see what that stone is telling me.. and I am a researcher by trade, I don't put much stock in the 'romance' of it all. Sadly there are jewellers who know little about their product and have no desire to learn more (and your experience does rather sound like this type!) but there are also jewellers who have been around the block more times than we as consumers can recognise - and honestly, I can sympathise with these knowledgeable and experienced jewellers who face 'bookies' who come in spouting off numbers and cheat sheets... and I rather suspect PS produces a lot of them.

my advice: be open to the idea that your jeweller knows more than you can learn in a few days from a forum. A good, experienced jeweller who cares about cut does not need the HCA or a list of numbers to refer to to vet a stone.
 
Anonymous6|1291352072|2785963 said:
"I think platinum is great, because it is platinum."
Click to expand...

Priceless. The quote, not the metal.
 
I think he might be a little bit right...

you should be choosing a retailer you trust. If you're not trusting his judgment in showing you GOOD stones, then why are you shopping with that person? I get a bit persnickety when someone calls me asking for what is essentially advice, but telling me the only advice I can give is X. Why did you ask the question then?

To him, it probably sounds like you are asking him to spend considerable time sourcing stones, then will be looking for places to criticize his choice based on your complete restriction of what he can show you. If I were asking the question, I guess I would ask the person whose advice I was requesting to find me the BEST stone he can get me of 1.5-1.6ct for this amount of dollars. If you have a huge color preference, maybe put a limit on that, but don't start with the angles etc until you have a few stones that you LIKE THE LOOK OF.

You also might want to step back from the HCA for a little while.
 
edit - in my earlier post I referenced "your jeweller" - I meant the wholesaler from your other thread, not this guy* just thought I'd clear that up. This guy could have recognised that your note was in error re H&A notations and be trying to steer you helpfully - or not. No idea.
 
Given that I resemble that remark, what with being a professor - being an academic is a GOOD thing! It means having a firm grasp of your discipline! Only anti-intellectual would think that was a bad thing ... and as far as I can tell, the only reasons for being anti-intellectual are crippling inferiority complexes, or the possibility to benefit from the stupidity of others.

It's probably a lot easier for this dude to make a sale to a consumer who just wants a 1.5 G VS2, no questions asked. If he can talk you into *being* that consumer, awesome for him: he gets money for little work. If he genuinely has stones you want, it's worth nudging him and, hey, maybe he'll be converted to the glory of the Cut-is-King-Cult, and it'll be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Alternately, you could look around at other vendors, and see if there's someone more educated ( :twisted: ) out there to make your purchase with.
 
The HCA is a rejection tool and a blunt one at that, it should not be used as a selection tool. I would not mention HCA to B&M vendors they don't need one to select fine diamonds and nor do you. It is like a cheat sheet and just helps a consumer choose good Crown/Pavilion combinations from virtual diamond listings.

Many stones would fit into your HCA criteria but cannot be properly selected until you use an IS or ASET and in person viewing. The HCA is based on only the incomplete averaged information found on a grading report.

You may want to get yourself an Idealscope and Ideal light to equalize the lighting from diamond dealer to dealer and to focus and educate your eyes. http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=26&ShowAdd=Y

Ultimately you will find almost all B&M's with higher overhead can rarely match prices with competitive online vendors that we often reccomend here on an apples to apples comparison.
 
Although you may have studied the subject of diamonds, a seller might question why you would say " at least Triple EX" when it would be impossible under the current grading structure to be more than such a set of grades. You would sound more knowledgeable by saying you want a stone graded "Triple Ex" and they will then know that you want little to no compromise on cut quality and craftsmanship. They would also understand that you know you are speaking of the very best grades and that your understanding of the system is clear.

By wording the question properly you will seem more knowledgeable, less "academic, I suppose, and not demanding something that you appear not to fully understand although you have most of the words right, the nuances need adjusting.

Dealers and most retailers are a traditional group that generally know a lot less about modern diamond grading and diamond screening tools than younger consumers. Some of us have made the leap to the 21st Century, but many have not even tried. Just show a modern cell phone to one of us old guys and it will take us hours to figure it out while people younger people immediately begin to text and twitter as if the phone always had been in their hand. Taking the time to better understand the communication gap between generations of people will make for better communication of your needs whether it is about diamonds, cell phones or even 3D tv's. :lol:
 
I couldn't agree with you more...

even as I type on this forum, I know I'm saying things incorrectly but make enough sense... so wording my questions and such would probably sound a lot less robotic.
 
Anonymous- regardless of how you may phrase things correctly or incorrectly, I would only work with someone who had enough tact and respect for me, as their potential customer, to remember the basics of customer service-which means phrasing things in an unoffensive way. Soft words, people :) And yes, I do happen to manage a Customer Care department that talks with about 40,000 customers a week, so I KNOW this isn't always easy. While I agree 100% that the specs don't mean as much as what your eyes tell you, go with your gut, someone who makes you feel comfortable, and someone you trust.
 
Different vendors work different ways. Not everyone respects the method of narrowing down stones based on a specific set of specs gleaned from diamond self-education on the internet. Maybe site like Pricescope don't really give a clear picture of what you'll be facing with non-PS vendors. Maybe the preponderance of posts here give the impression that everyone speaks this same language & feels the same way about choosing stones. Its simply not true.

If you want to conduct your search this way -- the going will be easier with vendors you see mentioned on here. But even then, not everyone agrees!

Its a tough slog, Anon6 ... just keep your chin up & keep plugging along. Don't expect that there's "one magic formula" for getting this done "the right way". Lots of personal choices & quirky personalities along the way. Good luck!
 
I have to second what some have said- so many people use HCA to buy RB stones sight unseen. Since you can't see the diamonds in person- you utilize HCA and idealscope as your eyes....


I would take what you have learned and then looks at different stones- tell them you want 1.5ct RB with Triple X.... see what they wshow you. You may find that you want an H over a G or an I over a G, etc, etc. But you should go in with the knowledge and then see for yourself what speaks for you.
 
I agree w/the rest.

It's easy to get caught up in specs (as have I), but if you get a good feeling about someone, maybe you should trust their opinion?

They might know that although the specs of a certain stone are not what you are looking for, the result is.

I have bought so many things by doing research online first, but diamond shopping is by faaaaaaar, the most difficult I've ever had to shop.

I've impressed many store sales people as well w/what I've learned on PS. There was only 1 store who embraced what I know, and actually showed me a bit more. I would've bought from them, but their prices were just too much for me.
 
I don't actually feel like you asked for anything particularly specific at all! haha... it is not like you gave the vendor crown and PA angles or something. Ct. weight and cut quality seem pretty simple criteria and not at all "too academic".

You want what you want, I think he should just help you find it.

ETA: I too would drop the HCA criteria because if you see them in person, and limit to GIA Ex or AGS0 cut grade, you can just select the one you like the look of best. Make sure you see at least 3-5 for comparison. Ditto others about the H&A note, that is an EGL thing and not a GIA/AGS thing.
 
As much as Garry would like his tool to be ubiquitous, I'm guessing the guy you're dealing with has never even heard about it - so yeah, if I have sold diamonds for 10 years and some noob off the street starts telling me about things I've never heard of - he's either an idiot or he's been researching more than I have and that's both offensive and nuts lol

Okay - but here you're safe, there is no such thing as too academic here :) You cannot go to grunts and expect them to be nerds. It doesn't work that way! Here is nerdly haven :)
 
Anonymous6|1291353057|2785974 said:
Also, if for some reason they're on PS reading my posts, hopefully they don't take it as insulting...
Click to expand...
there's no way someone who reads here would behave like that, I think you're safe... plus you're anonymous lol double plus - if he's insulted, it's with good reason ;)
 
Any vendor who called me too "academic" wouldn't be hearing from me again. How ridiculous.
 
Oldminer|1291390463|2786245 said:
Although you may have studied the subject of diamonds, a seller might question why you would say " at least Triple EX" when it would be impossible under the current grading structure to be more than such a set of grades. You would sound more knowledgeable by saying you want a stone graded "Triple Ex" and they will then know that you want little to no compromise on cut quality and craftsmanship. They would also understand that you know you are speaking of the very best grades and that your understanding of the system is clear.

By wording the question properly you will seem more knowledgeable, less "academic, I suppose, and not demanding something that you appear not to fully understand although you have most of the words right, the nuances need adjusting.

Dealers and most retailers are a traditional group that generally know a lot less about modern diamond grading and diamond screening tools than younger consumers. Some of us have made the leap to the 21st Century, but many have not even tried. Just show a modern cell phone to one of us old guys and it will take us hours to figure it out while people younger people immediately begin to text and twitter as if the phone always had been in their hand. Taking the time to better understand the communication gap between generations of people will make for better communication of your needs whether it is about diamonds, cell phones or even 3D tv's. :lol:
Click to expand...

I don't think you did anything wrong, but I agree with what oldminer says above. You may know what you mean by "at least triple ex" but unless you are saying what that is, that's not something they can search for. In turn, the HCA is a great tool for when consumers are offered one or more diamonds, for the CONSUMER to check that out (especially if the cut is not graded). So that's something for you to do, not necessarily ask the vendor to pull both triple ex stones AND run it through the HCA. Also I'm not sure how valuable using the HCA is if the stone is already rated triple ex by AGS. In any rate the point is to work with a vendor that you trust to show you beautiful stones, at a reasonable to you cost. Just be clear with the seller that for you those specs are important, see if the vendor is willing to work with you. As you know there are a number of vendors here who ARE comfortable finding those kind of stones for you, so if this doesn't work out you have options!
 
This is why many of us make it easier on ourselves and buy online.
 
ANY score under 2 on the HCA is as good as any other. It's a pass fail test. I would not require between 1-2 on the HCA. That's not a good idea.

Also work with a vendor that provides idealscope images and you will have peace of mind.

Please read below:
The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.
 
Just a heads-up... this thread was 4 years old before it was inadvertently resurrected today (the OP ended up purchasing a diamond from Brian Gavin)
 
Oldminer|1291390463|2786245 said:
Although you may have studied the subject of diamonds, a seller might question why you would say " at least Triple EX" when it would be impossible under the current grading structure to be more than such a set of grades. You would sound more knowledgeable by saying you want a stone graded "Triple Ex" and they will then know that you want little to no compromise on cut quality and craftsmanship. They would also understand that you know you are speaking of the very best grades and that your understanding of the system is clear.

By wording the question properly you will seem more knowledgeable, less "academic, I suppose, and not demanding something that you appear not to fully understand although you have most of the words right, the nuances need adjusting.

Dealers and most retailers are a traditional group that generally know a lot less about modern diamond grading and diamond screening tools than younger consumers. Some of us have made the leap to the 21st Century, but many have not even tried. Just show a modern cell phone to one of us old guys and it will take us hours to figure it out while people younger people immediately begin to text and twitter as if the phone always had been in their hand. Taking the time to better understand the communication gap between generations of people will make for better communication of your needs whether it is about diamonds, cell phones or even 3D tv's. :lol:
Click to expand...

David,

I have to agree with much of what you say, but not with the bolded statement above. You and I know that it is the highest set of grades that GIA gives, but that grade may or may not mean much, while the AGS ) cut grade is far more likely to be better than many of the GIA XXX grades.

I definitively MUST SADLY AGREE that the majority of jewelers are making no effort what so ever to keep up with advances in cutting technology. I wish you had not hit this issue so squarely on the head. I think it is one of the great embarrassments to our trade that so few bother to actually know what they are selling.

As for telling someone that they are too academic instead of showing them a range of diamonds, both in and outside of their demanded range and letting them choose with their eyes, silly is as silly does.

I have found that presenting people with diamonds both in and out of their desired range often results in their eye liking something outside their preferred range. We owe it to our clients to give them opportunity to see more than what they think they want to see. Many times they will actually like what they think they will like, but if we give them a chance, they may find they actually like things outside their expected range. (This happens very frequently with color.) The one constant I have found when doing these "blind taste tests", is that it is extremely rare for a poorly cut diamond to be chosen. Sparkle is the most consistent winner!

The whole concept of putting someone down as a sales tactic baffles me. Why not share your knowledge with them in a friendly and sharing way, thus earning both their trust and their business.

By the way, I have sent several couples to see you for appraisals over the years. Every single one of them has reported back to me how impressed they were with your helpful informative meetings with them. I know for a fact that you never told any of them that they were too academic!

Wink
 
Zombie thread!

But seriously, this was a good discussion. Maybe it should continue.
 
There is nothing unreasonable about your requirements and if that is what makes you comfortable with a purchase then work with someone who wants to work with you on your terms.

When viewing diamonds in person I do check what my eyes are seeing with all the other tools available.
IS/ASET, loupe, microscope, In my head hca type calculations and a some tricks of my own.
Why?
Mainly because it gets me out of wow pretty mode and into the state of mind to make a more thorough assessment.
How the diamond looks at the optimized store lighting is not that important, how it looks as I am living with it day in and day out is what is important.
If I am in wow pretty mode then I might miss something.

When shopping online that applies double and a good return policy is a must.
 
maccers|1417038192|3790883 said:
Zombie thread!

But seriously, this was a good discussion. Maybe it should continue.
Click to expand...
It is something that should be discussed from time to time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top