No such thing as untreated sapphires?

[Jude]

Hello again,

Okay, so I have followed the advice from various gem articles recommended from this site and I feel I am back at square one. This past weekend I went to view some loose blue sappires and was told there is so such thing as a untreated sapphire. That all the sapphires coming from the mines are treated in one way or another. Okay, did they mean heat treated or "other treatments?"

Am I to believe this retailer? The vendor of these sapphires told this gal that I was probably lied to because there is no such thing as a untreated sapphire? And, I had to tell them that gem stones can be certified.

I have been to over six jewelers, e-mailed three internet vendors, and have seen only two "unheated" certified stones. Who and what am I to believe is the truth about sapphires.

Okay, so is it worth it to certify a "treated" stone? And, if so, then why am I only finding out that most don''t come with certification. This means I will have to get my own? How do I do this process? And, I shouldn''t bother looking for "untreated" stone." I have been told, no one will know the difference anyway. I am a bit discouraged about finding an alternative to a diamond for an engagement ring. Maybe, I just read too much?

Maybe, this forum can share some thoughts.
Jude

 

[mike04456]

You are being lied to--by vendors who don't have untreated corundum in stock and don't want to go to the trouble of getting it. It is out there, it is just expensive and hard to find, and most jewelers want you to buy things they have in their cases instead of having to special order it.




Most sapphires are indeed treated, but by no means all of them. I've seen plenty that were not treated. I just bought my wife a set of unheated sapphire earrings.




If someone offers you an untreated stone of decent size, it should come with a lab report stating a lack of treatment. There are plenty of labs that will issue such reports, and most gem dealers who specialize in untreated material get the reports.




Finding a good, untreated stone will require some extra work. But if you stick to it, you should be able to get one.

 

[valeria101]

No, this is not true - as Lawgem says.

Actually, the incresignly invasive tratements of sapphire brought the cost of testing and the demand for untreated gems up - all reasons for sellers to missrepresend stones and scare away buyers. This is happening to you. Not great.

Also, it may be hard to find untreated sapphires among small-scale jewelry stores - because their average customer does not demand such merchandise. You would be in the wrong market. There are plenty of untreated stones. Rare are the natural ones that really look as good as the ones which have been submitted to enhancement, and those stones are the kind that make 'sapphire' a precious gem.

There are dealers specializing in untreated gems. You may want to get in touch with such a suplier, I supose.


Here's one nice piece of reading about this I happened to run into recently (WWW) and an older one... just as entertaining (WWW). Also, a piece on the up-to-date demand for untreated sapphire: WWW (The "Industry Analysis" bit).

Hope this helps

 

[mike04456]

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On 3/22/2004 3:17:52 PM valeria101 wrote:





There are dealers specializing in untreated gems. You may want to get in touch with such a suplier, I supose.

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When I was in Tucson last month, untreated corundum was the hottest thing going. Just about every dealer who sold rubies and sapphires had some, several had a lot of it, and a couple had nothing but. So it is out there. I just suspect that, as demand for this stuff is relatively recent, it will take a while to pentrate the retail market. And, as you note, some vendors who have only treated material view the whole discussion as a threat.

 

[The Joker]

Looking for untreated Sapphires???
Try this site.
You can even buy mine gravel, have it shipped to you, and hunt for your own sapphires. Or, if you are around Helena, Montana; you can dig your own, out of the ground (for a mining fee of coarse). Fun place to go.

http://www.sapphiremine.com/stones.htm

Joker....

 

[Richard M.]

There are many suppliers but on line you might take a look at Untreated Sapphires

This company specializes in certified natural, untreated sapphires. No connection, I'm just aware of them. Other suppliers who sell untreated corundum are Dudley Blauwet Gems, Louisville, CO and A. Kleiman & Co., Boulder, CO.

Richard M.

 

[Jude]

I have contacted one of the internet vendors you suggested and I am still apprehensive about buying a sapphire online without seeing it in person. I was told (if memory serves me) around $2500 a carat. This was a bit higher than I was quoted in person by a local vendor.

I mean after all isn't it the color ( among other things...) that everyone insists is the buying factor. How could one buy a stone online without actually seeing it first? I read a posted reply from a gal who bought a diamond based on its report. When it arrived it was not as it was on the report. Should I certify an untreated sapphire too?

I appreciate all the information, I just don't know who to trust on such an important purchase. I don't want a diamond due to personal reasons and I always said I would get a sapphire. (even before it became trendy) But, this process is really trying for a novice like me. Thanks for your advice, Jude

 

[valeria101]

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On 3/22/2004 7:05:13 PM Jude wrote:



I mean after all isn't it the color ( among other things...) that everyone insists is the buying factor. How could one buy a stone online without actually seeing it first? [...] this process is really trying. ----------------

I don't think it is advisable to buy a colored stone based on a picture. The price should correspond to a high quality gem... The best way would be to have it shipped to an appraiser: like this you can see it and decide.

Aside treatment - and I would like this one certified (GIA, AGTA) or at least guaranteed by an appraiser, not knowing who is the seller - many factors influence price. It is very hard to say, from this side of the screen, if the price is justified or if the price quoted by the other shop is. You will have things like: color (tone, saturation, hue), clarity, color zoning, cut (model, execution), brilliance and origin to consider before calling a number on it. Pictures are not great for almost any of these.

However, the choice of nice untreated blue sapphires is much more limited than for diamonds of comparable value. So, if faced with an extraordinary piece one may want to consider finding a matching replacement first. Also, limiting one's choices to what local jewelers can offer is often not the best way (depending where you live), in my online shopper's view

 

[Jude]

I don't think it is advisable to buy a colored stone based on a picture. The price should correspond to a high quality gem... The best way would be to have it shipped to an appraiser: like this you can see it and decide.

So, you are saying that I can do this without purchasing the stone up front?

Also, limiting one's choices to what local jewelers can offer is often not the best way (depending where you live), in my online shopper's view

I live in the Bay area, so do you have an alternative suggestion instead of using alocal jeweler? I am open to other venues. I am just not comfortable buying online without seeing it first. And, I don't know a vendor who will ship a stone not purchased. Thanks for you reply. Jude

----------------[/quote]

 

[Richard M.]

If you are talking about a supplier I posted I was only responding to your request to help you locate someone who sells untreated sapphires. As for the actual purchase, that's a different matter and entirely up to you.

I personally have no problem with heated sapphires as long as that's the only treatment applied to them and it's disclosed. It's what happens in nature when impurities naturally present in the stone are converted to a different atomic state by natural heating to produce the blue color. When humans do the heating instead of nature, the result is the same: a permanent color change. (Colors other than blue can be a very different story!) I think your local supplier was telling you to assume all blue sapphire is heated these days unless you are assured otherwise.

I have two recommendations: 1) Consider a heated sapphire if your local jeweler will give you written assurance the stone has no other treatment and is not diffused. It might be wise to seek a 3rd party gemologist's report on the stone. You'll save money this way and will be able to inspect the stone. 2) Give the jeweler the names of the wholesale sources I posted and ask him to memo some untreated stones in for your inspection. These dealers normally sell to jewelers, not the public, so should be able to give the jeweler a normal discount.

Richard M.

 

[mogok]

As William Larson said: Corundum is not a rare mineral but gem quality rubies and sapphires are...
There are many unheated or untreated rubies and sapphire in the market: "Fish tank quality" are plentiful in the burmese gem markets for exemple. Now if you are searching for something that have naturally a fine color it will be much more difficult to find...
You can find several samples of native cut rubies and sapphires in the following website: www.gemwow.com : "Native cut" means a little more than unheated or untreated: It just means that the stones are only cut and polished in the gem mining district by native cutters from Mogok in this case. These stones are usually not perfect for many pricescope visitors as the cutters try there not to maximise the brilliance but to maximise the value of the gem following their traditional undertanding of the stones. Mogok is known to pruduce rubies and sapphire for more than 1500 years... How could this people be 100% wrong? They know that their stones are very rare, they accept that most of them have some imperfections, thats why they are from few hundred to few thousands dollars and not in the tens of thousands range.
Now gemwow.com is currently more specialized on crystal and gemological specimens than on cut stones, but may be the website and all the specimen it present will be able to make you understand a little more about what is a natural untreated sapphire.
Anyway I hope that you will be able to find the "untreated sapphire" you are wishing to get. This one will be a great one for sure because it will be a source of beauty and knowledge.
Color stones are connoissor market and untreated stone even more.

All the best,

 

[elmo]

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On 3/22/2004 7:05:13 PM Jude wrote:

I have contacted one of the internet vendors you suggested and I am still apprehensive about buying a sapphire online without seeing it in person. I was told (if memory serves me) around $2500 a carat. This was a bit higher than I was quoted in person by a local vendor.
----------------

If you're saying that unheated from Arnstein cost more than heated at your local jeweler, that is certainly understandable - I can't remember the exact amount (one of the pros here can help) but doesn't The Guide show at least a 20+ percent premium for untreated?

Having something sent to look at rarely means you've committed to buying it. If the photo looks good why not have a look? What I wouldn't do though is sacrifice beauty for lack of treatment. That might make your search a little harder

.

Richard, I spoke with Kleiman once after seeing all the cool things he's gotten AGTA Spectrum awards for...he hasn't put up a website yet has he? As long as you have a jeweler you're working with he seemed surprisingly open to talking with a consumer-hobbyist like me

.

 

[Richard M.]

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On 3/22/2004 9:20:53 PM elmo wrote:

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Richard, I spoke with Kleiman once after seeing all the cool things he's gotten AGTA Spectrum awards for...he hasn't put up a website yet has he? As long as you have a jeweler you're working with he seemed surprisingly open to talking with a consumer-hobbyist like me

.----------------

No website yet that I'm aware of. I could probably dig out an email addy or phone number but, as you say, he'd probably prefer to work through a jeweler.

Richard M.

 

[mogok]

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On 3/22/2004 9:20:53 PM elmo wrote:

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What I wouldn't do though is sacrifice beauty for lack of treatment. That might make your search a little harder

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Yes you are right, but beauty is something that is very very relative. Some market will give a premium to color, an other one to cut and brilliancy, an other one to clarity...
On my personal side I just have a personnal repulsion for all clean stones. I like stones with color, reasonable brilliancy but I dont like the shape to be too perfect. I like the ring to fit the stone and not the stone to fit the ring... I love stone VS like clarity with some crystals or needle like natural inclusions. For a very simple reason: I like to know what I buy, I like the stone to tell me that it is natural and unheated... I like also the stone to tell me about its origin. Of course the stone have to show color and brilliancy to attract the eyes of the people around. But I like the stone to give me something personnal, some kind of interior beauty that only me with my loupe and microscope will be able to taste...
Machine cut heated stones are for me a little bit like girls completly relloked with silicone and fitness... I prefer charm to shape... And I'm looking for stones and girls with something to say.
I tell my students that in fact I use to like the stones on the same way as I like people: I like them for their imperfections... I mean, you have to choose a stone that will fit your real taste and accept in some areas your stone not to be perfect. Your stone imperfections will be what will make your stone different from all others...
All imperfections can be spoken about on either a bad or on a good way!
I can be very proud of a deep blue Mogok sapphire that will stay strait blue under different light conditions and also when you tilt the stone around 10 to 15 degres. Of course its clarity and cut will not be as perfect as machine cut heated madagascar stones, but my stone will make them looks green or pale. I will be happy with that because its the reason why I've choosen this stone to be mine. Now the heated mada will make my Burmese beauty looks like a potato!
But I dont really care... Because somewhere I tell myself that the beauty of my stone could be improved by a simple recutting.
I never recut my stones... I like them native...

Well all that is just to show you that beauty is a very personnal sensation. Choosing a stone is like choosing a girlfriend. You will have to find what you love.

Now buying stone on internet is not as easy as you cannot really see the color, the volume, the scintillation. So the first thing that you should enquiry about is the reliability of the website, their return policy, and why not ask them to help you?

Anyway, I'm very happy to see more an more people searching for untreated stones!

All the best,

 

[Jude]

If you're saying that unheated from Arnstein cost more than heated at your local jeweler, that is certainly understandable - I can't remember the exact amount (one of the pros here can help) but doesn't The Guide show at least a 20+ percent premium for untreated?

The comparison was done to a nonheated certified stone at the same carat wt. I have also seen heat treated stones cost more than non-heated stones? Grant it the color on the heat treated stone was truly beautiful-royal blue? Almost too beautiful to be true? I am aware of the mark-up, however I don't know if that matters? Like I stated above, some treated stones are costing more than non-treated? I realize it depends on each stone's characteristics. Thanks for the reply. Jude

 

[Jude]

Thanks Richard.

I will give the names to one of the jewelers I contacted and see what she can do for me.

Funny, the same jeweler who stated that I had been lied to about non-treated stones existing called today and found 2 non-heated certified stones! She mentioned they were certified by GRS? Have you heard of this company? And, she also asked what dimensions/millimeters was I looking for? How do I research this information? I didn't know I had to know this before I purchased a stone?

 

[mike04456]

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On 3/23/2004 8:01:14 PM Jude wrote:











She mentioned they were certified by GRS? Have you heard of this company?

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http://www.gemresearch.ch/

They are fairly well-respected colored stone lab.

 

[Richard M.]

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On 3/23/2004 8:01:14 PM Jude wrote:

Thanks Richard.

she also asked what dimensions/millimeters was I looking for? How do I research this information? I didn't know I had to know this before I purchased a stone?----------------

It will help the jeweler narrow down the types of stones to bring in for you to look at. Will the stone be used in a ring? A pendant? Something else? Do you have a shape in mind? A specific color? Remember, certified untreated sapphires are scarce and the jeweler will have to go through a lot of effort to help you find what's right for you. Be as specific in your description as possible. Rulers with metric measurements are pretty easy to find. (For instance 5 mm. is slightly under a quarter-inch). The more precise you are in describing what you want to the jeweler, the better she'll be able to help you find the stone you want. Good luck!

Richard M.

 

[valeria101]

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On 3/23/2004 7:53:43 PM Jude wrote:



I have also seen heat treated stones cost more than non-heated stones? Grant it the color on the heat treated stone was truly beautiful-royal blue? Almost too beautiful to be true? I am aware of the mark-up, however I don't know if that matters? Like I stated above, some treated stones are costing more than non-treated? I realize it depends on each stone's characteristics. Thanks for the reply. Jude ----------------

All this is right. The 'untreated' status brings a premium when all other things equal. If a stone is 'treated' and of superb color and great price, one may want to ask what 'treated' means - if it is 'heat treatment' it is ok, if it is more (diffusion) it is not. The impact on color of more than 'heating' can be just about as much as having the stone painted on and the stuff should be quite inexpensive no matter how great it looks (and it does look great). So? certificates are realy a good thing to have for sapphires of value

Here's (WWW) a piece of literature on what I mean...

 

[strmrdr]

Buying sapphires and rubies is really wierd in some ways.

You could spend years hunting down the finest unheated rough have it cut to perfection spending many thousands of dollars.

Then you want to find a matching one and the only way you might be able to do it without spending many more 10s of years is to spend a couple hundred bucks having some high grade synthetic cut to match spending a few hundred dollars.

Then one day you mix them up and cant tell which is which without lab equipment.

That is the story :} the moral of it is up too you :}

 

[mogok]

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On 3/25/2004 7:13:50 AM strmrdr wrote:

Buying sapphires and rubies is really wierd in some ways.

You could spend years hunting down the finest unheated rough have it cut to perfection spending many thousands of dollars.

Then you want to find a matching one and the only way you might be able to do it without spending many more 10s of years is to spend a couple hundred bucks having some high grade synthetic cut to match spending a few hundred dollars.

Then one day you mix them up and cant tell which is which without lab equipment.

That is the story :} the moral of it is up too you :}
----------------

That's why I like my stone to have some nice tale tell inclusions visible only with a loupe or a microscope. Then they have their identity!
All the best,

 

[ariel144]

Best site I''ve found for unheated and untreated is:

sapphires.ca

Bill Kent is a registered gemologist (GIA) and digs and cuts his own sapphires.

He is in Canada. The quality of his stones are the best I''ve seen so far. The cuts are very fine.

Take a look. Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Ariel144

 

[nicky newark]

Hey Jude-Im very happy with my unheated sapphire purchase from http://kashmirblue.com