No Cert OK?

[bethan]

I''ll start by saying that this forum is amazing. I wish I had a wireless connection while meeting with a jeweler so that I could send questions and get live help! Many thanks to those so committed to educating naive diamond shoppers!

I recently found a new diamond and am very pleased with pricing but also quite unsure... there is no GIA cert for this rock.

Diamond Details

2.16 carat Radiant
H SI2 (graded by a reputable B&M jeweler here in town with 70 years in biz)
Measures 8.6 X 6.45 X 4.6
Depth 71% (I''m told this is fine for this rock with length to width ratio of 1.34 to 1)
Table 62.5%
Girdle Med to Slight Thick
Polish Very Good
Symmetry Good
Brilliance and Dispersion really impressive
Asking price 10K

After hours of questions (this guy measured with lab tools while I got to watch - very cool!) and looking with a loop at the inclusions responsible for the SI2 rating (due to great brilliance I was unable to find them with the naked eye) I asked him a final question -

If you had to imagine the purchaser of this stone coming in for a trade-in in 6 months (they offer this for lifetime) what would their complaint be?
He said it would be that once mounted and dirty, I would be able to see the inclusions with the naked eye. And he dirtied the rock on the pavillion side and BOOM - there is was.

My questions:
1. Would this be the case for any stone? Once you dirty the underside does the inclusion show through on all rocks? And if I had a small at-home ultra sonic and kept it clean, which I intend to do anyway, would i have this problem?
2. Why would a reputable jeweler not get a GIA cert? He said he can send it out and I''ll pay the cost but why would a jeweler not do this on some rocks and do it on others?
3. I want a big stone. This one is tremendous and brilliant. I am considering hunting further for something smaller that is SI1, but may go down in size and up in quality and not get the brilliance of this rock. Any recommendations here?

Thanks so much!

 

[newenglandgemlab]

Quite often I will have a client state they never saw the inclusion when they purchased the stone but noticed it after wearing it for awhile. Yes, if the stone gets ''dirty'' it will act as a backdrop for the inclusion and it will be much more visible to the naked eye.
Sometimes a jeweler just doesn''t have the time necessary to get a grading certificate done and some of their clients really don''t require it. I do recommend getting an independent appraisal and having the stone submitted, but it depends on your comfort level with the jeweler you are dealing with. A full trade back policy is a very good indication they are willing to stand behind their product. It does seem like a good deal. Cindy

 

[widget]

Hi, Bethan...

I''m no diamond expert but I have a couple of thoughts...

I''d want certification on any purchase this big, just to be sure I knew exactly what I was paying for. Documentation is also useful for insurance purposes, and for reselling the stone should you ever decide to do so.

I suppose another approach would be to get a second opinion from an independent appraiser, but personally I prefer that "official" piece of paper...a GIA report. Without a GIA report, I always assume that quoted specs are optimistic...

I just did a quick search using the specs you posted and the price does seem OK, especially considering you''re working with a B&B, which usually charge more than online vendors.

Your vendor sounds like a good guy, and I do like his lifetime tradeup policy.

You''ve had the huge advantage of having seen the stone in real life, and seem to be very impressed with its looks and brilliance....this is a good thing and not to be discounted...numbers are interesting, but in the end it''s what the eye sees that matters.

I''m sure some more knowledgable peops will weigh in with more than my measly two cents worth!

Good Luck!

widget

 

[oldminer]

A GIA grading report is considered somewhat costly. Profit margins on diamonds are greatly reduced by competition so there are stones in the market without documents. The retailer sounds like someone who is friendly and dedicated to his customers. The stone could be properly represented and a vry good deal.

However, as a consumer you are being asked to trust the seller. They may deserve your trust or possibly they might be fudging a little, or a lot. How do you know? That''s the function of a grading report or an independent assessement of quality.

If you want a large stone within the constraints of a budget, then there wil always be compromises. Keeping a diamond clean, is hardly a large compromise to be making. Even better clarity stones like to be cleaned all the time. All diamonds look their best when clean.

Lots of luck with your shopping.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/8/2006 8:35:42 AM
Author:bethan


My questions:
1. Would this be the case for any stone? Once you dirty the underside does the inclusion show through on all rocks?

Second the previous post on what 'dirt' does. But not all SI2 have the same standard issue of inclusions

You may find one that has less visible ones, if this particular stone is not pleasing enough in other ways to be worthwhile for you...



And if I had a small at-home ultra sonic and kept it clean, which I intend to do anyway, would i have this problem?

Up to you and how you feel about it... what can I say? What does this inclusion look like anyway? Even when it does show on the not-so-clean stone, would it be very visible and distracting?





2. Why would a reputable jeweler not get a GIA cert? He said he can send it out and I'll pay the cost but why would a jeweler not do this on some rocks and do it on others?

It may be that he didn't get any certified but acquired the diamonds with paper&all. It may have something to do with the stones or not: not everyone wants the report and if the stone is expected to sell faster, why not.
PS: if I didn't know to tell for myself, I would pay& wait for the lab report or got for an appraisal. Btw, if GIA takes too long, how about AGS?




3. I want a big stone. This one is tremendous and brilliant. I am considering hunting further for something smaller that is SI1, but may go down in size and up in quality and not get the brilliance of this rock. Any recommendations here?

You may want to look at other SI2s first. What and where the inclusions are counts allot.

My 2c

 

[strmrdr]

my answer,
$10k no cert, no way
Is there a independant appraiser listed in the PS listing in your area?
If so and he agrees to making the sale dependant on the appraiser agreeing with the grade or a 100% refund and will put it in writing then maybe, but im not thrilled by it.

 

[princessv]

I don''t like the idea of no cert either. Even with EGL certs a local evil B&M jeweler took my fiance''s deposit at the time (about 2k) and the extra $300 (?) for sending what was supposed to be sidestones (1 ctw) to get GIA certs. Well the stones came back graded 2-3 color grades lower and 2 clarity grades lower. Jeweler avoided him for 2 months after and tried to keep the deposit.

Moral of the story: Certs are really really important to me especially certs by reputable labs.

 

[denverappraiser]

Bethan,

A GIA exam on a 2.16 will cost several hundred dollars and, as Dave points out, this can be a considerable portion of the dealers margin. I agree with Storm that it''s sufficiently unusual for a stone this big to be undocumented that I would be concerned.

Offer them this: You leave a deposit and they send the stone to GIA. If the GIA opinion matches that of the jeweler, you''ll both buy the stone and pay for the GIA fees and the related shipping costs. If GIA disagrees with the grading, the deal is off and you get your deposit back in full.

GIA can be a little slow and if the jeweler doesn''t own the stone, this will require permission from whoever does. They may or may not be willing. AGS is faster and, in my opinion, equally credible although a little more expensive.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rod]

Some really good advice has been offered. I would (and did) require that my new 1.12 G VS2 Round Birillaint be graded by GIA. For a stone the size you are looking at, it would be advisable to spend the money and have it graded.

Keeping a stone clean is easy. Don't shower in it. Don't put soap on it. Don't work in the yard in it. And there's a nice machine from a company called Jet Clean, which is an at-home steam machine. It's only $99 and it will keep your diamond cleaner than an ultrasonic. Though some people do use both, ultrasonic cleaning and steam cleaning. Every day when I get home, I take my ring off, dab a soft bristled toothbrush in a good jewelry cleaner and gently brush my ring and then rinse and dry. I then steam the ring once a week for maximum clean. And yes, I am a bit 'anal' about keeping my ring clean.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

The big problem with non-cert SI2''s is that there''s such a big price drop from SI2 to I1.

If it were me, I''d want to make sure I was paying for a bonafide SI2. Otherwise I would be overpaying, big time.

(This is unless, of course, the dealer is calling it an SI2 but charging an I1 price, which happens.)

 

[bethan]

Thanks for all the useful tips. Based on all the replies, I''ll definately get a cert and try to work it so that I pay the fee but if it comes back that the rock is an I1, I''ll seek a lower price or get deposit back and IGA fee back.

I plan to go there on Fri and photograph it so if I can figure it out, I''ll post the pics.
Thanks again!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Sounds like you're on top of things, Bethan.

Good luck.

 

[bethan]

Thanks. This is my first time at this and I really want us to get it right!

Question I have - The interactive pricing stats on this site are very helpful (particularly in highlighting the decrement in price associated with a move from SI2 to I1). Wondering how I can determine the Class of Cut of this Radiant diamond as the spec refers to Round.

Thanks in advance for any help here!

 

[bethan]

One other question...

This Radiant has a slight "bowtie". Is that a common characteristic for Radiants and is it something I should be concerned about with respect to the value of the rock?

 

[valeria101]

What''s ''slight''?

Yes, there''s always one in rectangular diamonds... it takes a huge, unpleasant gash of a bow tie effect to affect price and value.
As far as I know.

 

[bethan]

Update.

I went back to the jewelers yesterday with my FH. We looked at the first diamond (2.16 Radiant for $9900 described above) and a second (2.03 Radiant, GIA certified H SI2, 8.67 X 6.24 X 4.34, 1 to 1.39 ratio, Depth 69.6%, Table 74%, VG Polish, VG Symmetry) that he got in this week. The inclusions on the second are light feathers that I had a hard time finding with the loop. He is asking $1000 more for this stone. But this second stone is very flat, has a big bowtie and is not nearly as brilliant as the first!

So here is what he is saying about the first one, the 2.16, which I am still very interested in and have some new questions about:

He did not have it certified originally because he didn''t want to chance it that it would come back an I1. He has asked a number of colleagues their opinion and he and others are quite confident that it will come back an SI2. In the off chance he thought "why risk it on a diamond this brilliant that should sell based on our certification and the lifetime trade-in we offer". I appreciated hearing this thinking and his honesty.

So I asked if he''d knock down the price if it came back I1. And he said he would, but jsut a bit and not to the I1 value of the stone. So he said he would give it to us for $9900 if GIA says it''s an SI2 and $9400 if GIA says it''s an I1. He also admitted that if it was a GIA certified I1 to begin with, it would be about $7500 - 8000. He said this is because GIA does not have a rating of SI3 which some might also pick for this stone. And that the $9400 pricing would align with SI3.

I am really torn. Here is my thinking and please offer any thoughts you might have.

If I am in love with this stone (I think I am) I can spend $200-300 on the cert and shipping costs to have him send it to GIA. I will do this if I know that I am willing to spend $9900 on it and will look forward to a "discount" if it comes back I1. And this will only make sense because he has been in business for 70 years (3rd generation) and have lifetime trade-in.

And now I get to whether I love this rock.
It''s the best I''ve seen in terms of brilliance and $. It does have an inclusion that I can see when I get the back dirty and look at it from 12 inches away. But I have to stare and scan and angle it for about 3 sec to see the black fleck, which is in a corner of a big (8.6 X 6.45 X 4.6) surface.

I can keep looking but I am wondering if I will find something this size and brilliance for under 10K (our budget).
And worst case is I get this mounted, can clearly see the inclusion and am disappointed, and I ask him to go on a hunt for another stone. We then put $9900 toward another GIA certified rock that I do like (when he finally finds it).

We are not in a rush really. I don''t even have insight into the timeline for my FH to propose to me but we talk about it daily and are eager to settle on the rock and have it in mind as we continue to save up.

Anyone with any thoughts and reactions?

 

[widget]

Hi, bethan...

I really do like your vendor..he certainly sounds like an up-front guy...

Your last post is a good reminder to us all that a certificate and a higher price do not necessarily mean a prettier stone!

My advice: grab it, because it grabs you!

Re getting the cert...I''m even softening my stance on that. His lifetime trade up policy speaks volumes. I personally would probably want the cert anyway, because I like having proper documentation with such important purchases...but that''s me.

I''m by no means an expert...I too will be very curious to hear others'' input.

widget

 

[Patty]

Hmmm. You love this stone and you trust the jeweler, but I''m still not sure about the price. If it does come back as an I-1, you are paying about $1900 more than when he admits the value would be. ($7500)

I don''t go with the SI-3 line of thinking. To me, an SI-3 is just an I-1 with an EGL certificate.

I guess that you need to decide whether or not you are willing to pay that much of a premium to deal with this jeweler whom you trust and who has been very honest and upfront with you. That is worth something, for sure, but only you know if it is worth $1900.