raddygast
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2004
- Messages
- 179
I found this on this site:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfsummerone.html#Burma%20Spinel
I'll have to summarize because copy-paste screws up the alignment.
SPINEL - RUBY COMPARISON CHART
(Format: Spinel vs. Ruby)
Hardness: 8 vs 9
Supply:
Burma: Ultra Rare vs. Mogok-Ultra Rare, Mong Hsu-Some Supply
Ceylon: Plentiful vs. None
Thailand: None vs. Available
Brilliance: More Fire vs. Less Fire
Rarity: 200+ Times More Rare vs. More Common
Price: 25% The Price Of Ruby vs. More Expensive
So, having learned a lot about spinels in the past months, I'd have to question the rarity statement. This is from a website specializing in gem collecting for people with serious money to burn on their portfolios. For example, they have two spinels listed, both over 3 carats. One is something like $6000 USD per carat (3.16ct): http://www.preciousgemstones.com/316buspfs.html. So I would imagine they know what they're talking about.
However, 200 times more rare than ruby? Sounds like a random number picked out of the air to make an emphatic point. Plus, I imagine they are really stating that spinel is 200+ times more rare than ruby, period, regardless of origin. Still, that is confusing, because there is a lot of spinel out there that isn't red and isn't even comparable to ruby, so how does that distort the equation?
The answer I've been able to get out of the people on this forum is not quantifiable, it's basically: "fine Mogok ruby and fine Mogok red spinel are equally rare." Is that only true for untreated Mogok rubies? I know Mogok has a higher proportion of "natural beauties" but I think 70% at least of their stuff is heated too. How rare is a truly truly top-color cleanish 1 ct Mogok heated ruby?
Anyway, this just gets back to my major obsession, which is determining how rare spinel actually is in the red colors and decent qualities. I've had a hell of a time locating mine (granted, my budget was fairly small) but that may simply be because I wasn't working within the right circles, or because my enquiries were all sent out with an approximate budget that was too low for what I wanted. Most of the dealers that ignored me probably thought I was crazy, and the ones that responded were fairly up front about not being able to do the impossible.
The lack of treatment, combined with the exceptionally poor marketing of red spinels (resulting in extremely low demand and almost nonexistent awareness) would suggest to me that truly fantastic red spinel, we're talking 70-75% red body color in AGL terms, or pretty much straight red (R) in GIA terms, of medium tone and VIVID saturation, and whopping red fluorescence, is pretty much an experience that even rich collectors may only encounter once or twice in a lifetime.
It would seem to me that EVEN though untreated rubies are exceedingly rare, and the absolutely top colors even in treated (and flux-healed) form aren't exactly commonplace, that despite these factors, since there is clearly a ready market for rubies among collectors and high-society types, that rubies are pursued and mined more aggressively than spinel, so perhaps the perfect red is in a sense less rare than the perfect red spinel, although it will of course fetch MUCH higher prices.
I was floored on that NGC site when it said that their 6000/ct red spinel (granted it was a 3.16, so if it were a 2 carat or less it may have been only 3000/ct) basically would be 10% of the cost of an equivalently AGL graded Mogok unheated ruby. $60,000 per carat for a 3ct+ stone? I can't imagine anyone spending nearly $200K on a stone that small. Wow.
One more thing they mentioned in that report (which granted seems to date from the late nineties). They said that spinels are even rarer now that Mogok has been all but abandoned for the ruby rush in Mong Hsu. Since this was 7 years ago, has that sort of balanced out? Seems like Mogok is alive and healthy, and Mong Hsu has had a bit of a depression since the scandals over the Chanthaburi flux-filling treatments.
Ah well, this topic is so interesting. I'm a bit bummed I wasn't in the market for a red spinel say 3 or 4 years ago, when I could probably get what I wanted with my current budget. Seems like prices are climbing steadily. I wonder if that $18,000 spinel may suddenly be worth $50,000 in ten or fifteen years!
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfsummerone.html#Burma%20Spinel
I'll have to summarize because copy-paste screws up the alignment.
SPINEL - RUBY COMPARISON CHART
(Format: Spinel vs. Ruby)
Hardness: 8 vs 9
Supply:
Burma: Ultra Rare vs. Mogok-Ultra Rare, Mong Hsu-Some Supply
Ceylon: Plentiful vs. None
Thailand: None vs. Available
Brilliance: More Fire vs. Less Fire
Rarity: 200+ Times More Rare vs. More Common
Price: 25% The Price Of Ruby vs. More Expensive
So, having learned a lot about spinels in the past months, I'd have to question the rarity statement. This is from a website specializing in gem collecting for people with serious money to burn on their portfolios. For example, they have two spinels listed, both over 3 carats. One is something like $6000 USD per carat (3.16ct): http://www.preciousgemstones.com/316buspfs.html. So I would imagine they know what they're talking about.
However, 200 times more rare than ruby? Sounds like a random number picked out of the air to make an emphatic point. Plus, I imagine they are really stating that spinel is 200+ times more rare than ruby, period, regardless of origin. Still, that is confusing, because there is a lot of spinel out there that isn't red and isn't even comparable to ruby, so how does that distort the equation?
The answer I've been able to get out of the people on this forum is not quantifiable, it's basically: "fine Mogok ruby and fine Mogok red spinel are equally rare." Is that only true for untreated Mogok rubies? I know Mogok has a higher proportion of "natural beauties" but I think 70% at least of their stuff is heated too. How rare is a truly truly top-color cleanish 1 ct Mogok heated ruby?
Anyway, this just gets back to my major obsession, which is determining how rare spinel actually is in the red colors and decent qualities. I've had a hell of a time locating mine (granted, my budget was fairly small) but that may simply be because I wasn't working within the right circles, or because my enquiries were all sent out with an approximate budget that was too low for what I wanted. Most of the dealers that ignored me probably thought I was crazy, and the ones that responded were fairly up front about not being able to do the impossible.
The lack of treatment, combined with the exceptionally poor marketing of red spinels (resulting in extremely low demand and almost nonexistent awareness) would suggest to me that truly fantastic red spinel, we're talking 70-75% red body color in AGL terms, or pretty much straight red (R) in GIA terms, of medium tone and VIVID saturation, and whopping red fluorescence, is pretty much an experience that even rich collectors may only encounter once or twice in a lifetime.
It would seem to me that EVEN though untreated rubies are exceedingly rare, and the absolutely top colors even in treated (and flux-healed) form aren't exactly commonplace, that despite these factors, since there is clearly a ready market for rubies among collectors and high-society types, that rubies are pursued and mined more aggressively than spinel, so perhaps the perfect red is in a sense less rare than the perfect red spinel, although it will of course fetch MUCH higher prices.
I was floored on that NGC site when it said that their 6000/ct red spinel (granted it was a 3.16, so if it were a 2 carat or less it may have been only 3000/ct) basically would be 10% of the cost of an equivalently AGL graded Mogok unheated ruby. $60,000 per carat for a 3ct+ stone? I can't imagine anyone spending nearly $200K on a stone that small. Wow.
One more thing they mentioned in that report (which granted seems to date from the late nineties). They said that spinels are even rarer now that Mogok has been all but abandoned for the ruby rush in Mong Hsu. Since this was 7 years ago, has that sort of balanced out? Seems like Mogok is alive and healthy, and Mong Hsu has had a bit of a depression since the scandals over the Chanthaburi flux-filling treatments.
Ah well, this topic is so interesting. I'm a bit bummed I wasn't in the market for a red spinel say 3 or 4 years ago, when I could probably get what I wanted with my current budget. Seems like prices are climbing steadily. I wonder if that $18,000 spinel may suddenly be worth $50,000 in ten or fifteen years!
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