Newbie questions

[Kashmira]

What''s the "lowest" quality you would consider for a pair of diamond stunds? I''d like to get a pair that face up white with lots of brilliance. I know that cut is very important but what about colour and clarity- what is the "lowest" colour/clarity you can get and still have diamonds that look white?

Also is fluorescence a bad or good thing when it comes to diamonds?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 12/19/2009 11:32:03 AM
Author:Kashmira
What''s the ''lowest'' quality you would consider for a pair of diamond stunds? I''d like to get a pair that face up white with lots of brilliance. I know that cut is very important but what about colour and clarity- what is the ''lowest'' colour/clarity you can get and still have diamonds that look white?

Also is fluorescence a bad or good thing when it comes to diamonds?

What is your definition of white?

I would go as low as SI2 for sure, as long as the diamonds were eye clean to my standards, which for earing would be about 10 inches. Also, I would do as low as I color for earings. Many many others go to J or K and are happy, but there is a warmth to the white you see in those colors.

99.9% of the time flor has no ill effects and many people like the blue tinge in strong sunlight that happens with strong and very strong flor. Very occassionally there can be an oily appearance caused by flor, but it is really rare. If you buy from a PS recommended vedor with the stones in house (WF, GOG, BGD to name a few) then you do not need to worry about this issue, they would not carry in house diamonds that are negatively affected by flor. But it is only a potential issue with strong and very strong flor anyways.

 

[FB.]

Colour is more noticeable in larger stones. Most earring stones are between 0.25 and 0.5ct each.
The choice of metal for mounting makes a difference. I'd happily drop to J or lower colour and SI1 clarity in yellow gold.
My preference in platinum would be F VS2, but you should be able to go to G SI1. I'd say that H is risky if you are colour sensitive and SI2 is risky if you have good eyesight.

Don't mix fluor and non-fluor stones, unless the fluor is faint. Try to have both stones with the same fluor rating if the fluor is medium or higher.

Fluroescent stones are described as if all of them are unattractive due to turning cloudy in bright light. The truth is that the one's that turn cloudy are just as likely to occur in non-fluor stones, especially in the SI and lower clarity grades with stones that have large amounts of clouds and wisps. Sometimes, it is the particles in the cloud or the wisp that fluoresce, and not the stone itself.

None or faint fluor is a "safe" option.
But if you fancy a lilac/blue tint in strong daylight, there's no reason to avoid strong or very strong fluor stones. I have several "blue whites" as they used to be called (D/E/F colour, strong/very strong blue fluor).

 

[Kashmira]

Thanks for your replies! Can a strong fluorescensce make a slightly yellowish diamond look "whiter"?

After having read your replies I am pretty sure of that I won''t go lower than SI1 and maybe H or even I (depending of the cut) colour (I''m looking for a setting in 18K white gold).

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/20/2009 4:26:22 AM
Author: Kashmira
Thanks for your replies! Can a strong fluorescensce make a slightly yellowish diamond look ''whiter''?

After having read your replies I am pretty sure of that I won''t go lower than SI1 and maybe H or even I (depending of the cut) colour (I''m looking for a setting in 18K white gold).

In some cases yes it can in some lights.

 

[FB.]

Strong fluor can make a diamond appear whiter in some light conditions, but not all light conditions. Even a strong or very strong fluor D will appear whiter than a non-fluor D in certain lighting.
You'll need to be in strong daylight (near a window or in sunlight) for the fluor to activate.
But to perfectly neutralise the colour tint of the stone, you'd need to get exactly the right amount of fluorescence and exactly the right lighting conditions.
With lighting conditions constantly changing, you'd only sometimes get a perfect balance. More than likely, in strong daylight, the stone will just look blue-tinted.

Evidently, "eye clean" SI and lower clarity stones with clouds as the grade-setters (cloud listed first on certificate) can also look whiter because of the effect of the clouds within! Unfortunately, the ligher performance can suffer, with the whole stone turning milky. This "milkiness" effect has been blamed on fluorescence (and is used as the excuse why you should never buy a fluor stone), but milkiness seems to affect non-fluor stones just as often as fluor one's.

 

[Kashmira]

I have A LOT to learn when it comes to diamonds. Thanks you everyone for your help!

 

[Kashmira]

I have spent a lot of time looking at pics of diamonds, reading on Pricescope and trying to learn more. I have also been in contact with the "best" jeweller in the country in which I live and asked about colour/clarity and they recommended me to get nothing less than top wesselton/vvs... They said that wesslton might be acceptable for earrings but now I am confused. With what colour/cut/clarity is it obvious to the eye that the diamond is not "perfect"? For example, I guess that you cannot tell the difference between D and E but would you be able to tell that someone wearing F coloured diamond studs have not chosen a "perfect" colour? I am sorry for all stupid "newbie questions" but I am afraid of getting a pair of diamond studs that don''t look good.

 

[yssie]

Date: 12/21/2009 2:59:09 PM
Author: Kashmira
I have spent a lot of time looking at pics of diamonds, reading on Pricescope and trying to learn more. I have also been in contact with the 'best' jeweller in the country in which I live and asked about colour/clarity and they recommended me to get nothing less than top wesselton/vvs... They said that wesslton might be acceptable for earrings but now I am confused. With what colour/cut/clarity is it obvious to the eye that the diamond is not 'perfect'? For example, I guess that you cannot tell the difference between D and E but would you be able to tell that someone wearing F coloured diamond studs have not chosen a 'perfect' colour? I am sorry for all stupid 'newbie questions' but I am afraid of getting a pair of diamond studs that don't look good.

This is unnecessarily high, IMO, agree with previous posters.

In well-cut smaller stones (under 0.75ct, let's just say) you're not going to see much colour from the top - the big giveaway to its real colour is from the side. You're not going to get a side view of stud earrings, so you can go lower in colour since you don't need to worry about this. My personal happy-spot for studs is J.

VVS is going completely overboard. You won't see the difference between that and a VS2 or eyeclean SI, and in those sizes eyeclean SIs (from face up - again, you don't need to worry about what people might see from the sides here like you might with a ring) are easy to find. I love eyeclean SI2s or even mostly eyeclean I1s.

"Perfection" is all in the eye of the beholder, no?

Many PSers actively seek out the lower colours... it all depends on what you want, and how much you're willing to sacrifice in one arena to gain in another.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Kashmira,
We love a lot of lower color stones- so I would suggest even considering K color.
What you see as "white" is an individual thing.
If you can "get away" with a lower color, you''ll either save a lot of money, or get a larger pair.
In my experience, larger stones do not necessarily show color more due to their size.
Of course it''s easier to see the body of a larger stone- yet I''ve seen too many K and L colors that looked pretty darn white in larger sizes to dismiss them.,
In such cases fluorescence may be a big plus- as sometimes it ca make an L color look even more white.
You''d probably want to avoid mixing a strong blue with a non fl stone to help the matching aspects.

In terms of clarity, you might be able to find eye clean I1''s which would also save you money, or increase the size for the money

 

[FB.]

You could go for D/E - VVS1/VVS2 for the "prestige" of such high quality, but you'd almost certainly be just as happy with F VS2 (possibly G SI1) for earrings.

I have a variety of stones ranging from a few pointers up to 1.2ct, with a variety of clarities from IF to SI2.

Among the 1ct stones:
I can't tell the difference between the D, E or F colours.
I can easily tell H or I from F.

I can't tell the difference between the IF and VS1 stones. One of the VS2 stones has a tiny speck that's barely visible at six inches in bright lighting if you know where to look.
I can usually tell SI clarity from VS clarity because many SI1 inclusions are visible at six inches, but often not visible at twelve inches..

But SI clarity is by no means a bad grade. Just be realistic and expect to see some tiny markings at six inches and possibly at twelve inches if the angle and light are ideal.
But how often does someone get within twelve inches of year earrings?.....or within six inches of your ring?.....and how often do they have the time to align the stone and lighting perfectly, to be able to notice that *something tiny* might be on the border of their visual detection range?

To summarise;
I work as a scientist. I have sharp eyesight and attention to detail.
If you showed me two mounted stones of about 1ct, one being D/IF and the other being F/VS1, I would not be able to tell the difference. I would struggle to see any markings in most VS2 stones, although I have occasionally been able to see tiny specks in some 1ct VS2's with good lighting and a long, hard look at six or seven inches.
I have never been able to see a VS2 inclusion in a stone around 0.5ct.

 

[Kashmira]

Thank you so much for your help- I am almost overwhelmed by your kindness!

I have always thought that cut is extremely important but when talking to the "famous" jeweller today they just talked about clarity and colour. I have also been in contact with someone who says that a really great cut can make also a J or even K coloured diamond look really white and with someone else who told me that even a "very good" (as opposed to excellent) cut diamond can have lots of fire/brilliance. Now I hardly don''t know what to think...

I am for sure not interested in a "prestige" diamond (on the paper) but wants a diamond that looks both white and with lots of sparkle (the setting will be in 18K white gold I might add). I would rather compromise when it comes to the size than getting a "bad" diamond but I don''t want to pay more than what I have to either... It''s great to know that it is impossible to tell a D diamond from a F diamond for instance.

Also I have been looking at BlueNile and I have been in contact with a very nice jeweller who has lots of diamonds to choose from. How important is it with a cert? If comparing to identical diamonds, one with cert and one without, what would be the price difference for for exampel a 0.5 ct diamond? Are there special companies that are recommended for especially "good looking" diamonds? Sorry for all questions... again!

 

[FB.]

In some countries (such as the UK - where I live), the population only cares about:

1. Carat.
2. Colour.
3. Clarity.

The cut grade is rarely asked. If a cut grade is required, we're expected to decide based only on table % and depth %, or accecpt a lab-awarded grade.

There are some very good cut stones that look almost as good as excellent cuts. They are usually penalised to very good because of excessively thick girdles, but the crown and pavilion angles may be perfect.
But very good cut grade can also include some bad angle combinations.
In some cases, cutters "dress mutton as lamb" and try to cut "overweight" stones that only just make it into a particular cut grade.

-

I would rather have a well-cut H than a badly cut D.
If the cut is poor, the diamond will be like an inert lump of glass. If the cut is excellent, the diamond will have lots of sparkle and "character".

-

A certificate is very useful. Price for a 0.5ct stone to be certified would be perhaps $50-75 (plus shipping).

If you're unable to view a diamond before purchasing, I'd suggest the following very strict parameters that will almost certainly weed-out the badly cut stones.

GIA certificate

Excellent cut

Excellent polish

Excellent symmetry

Medium girdle, or thin-medium, or medium-slightly thick. Don't accept thin-slightly thick as the stone's performance can suffer and cutters tricks can be hidden in a variable girdle

Table: 55-58%

Total depth: no more than 61.8%

Crown and pavilion angle: 34.5/40.8, or 35.0/40.8, or 35.0/40.6, or 34.0/41.0. Only accept one of those complementary angle sets.

-

It is possible to stray outside of those guidelines in some instances if you know the compromises that will result, but they are "very safe" - although nothing is 100% guaranteed and a good returns policy is essential.

 

[Kashmira]

Date: 12/21/2009 4:09:05 PM
Author: FB.
In some countries (such as the UK - where I live), the population only cares about:

1. Carat.
2. Colour.
3. Clarity.

The cut grade is rarely asked. If a cut grade is required, we''re expected to decide based only on table % and depth %, or accecpt a lab-awarded grade.

There are some very good cut stones that look almost as good as excellent cuts. They are usually penalised to very good because of excessively thick girdles, but the crown and pavilion angles may be perfect.
But very good cut grade can also include some bad angle combinations.
In some cases, cutters ''dress mutton as lamb'' and try to cut ''overweight'' stones that only just make it into a particular cut grade.

-

I would rather have a well-cut H than a badly cut D.
If the cut is poor, the diamond will be like an inert lump of glass. If the cut is excellent, the diamond will have lots of sparkle and ''character''.

-

A certificate is very useful. Price for a 0.5ct stone to be certified would be perhaps $50-75 (plus shipping).

If you''re unable to view a diamond before purchasing, I''d suggest the following very strict parameters that will almost certainly weed-out the badly cut stones.

GIA certificate

Excellent cut

Excellent polish

Excellent symmetry

Medium girdle, or thin-medium, or medium-slightly thick. Don''t accept thin-slightly thick as the stone''s performance can suffer and cutters tricks can be hidden in a variable girdle

Table: 55-58%

Total depth: no more than 61.8%

Crown and pavilion angle: 34.5/40.8, or 35.0/40.8, or 35.0/40.6, or 34.0/41.0. Only accept one of those complementary angle sets.

-

It is possible to stray outside of those guidelines in some instances if you know the compromises that will result, but they are ''very safe'' - although nothing is 100% guaranteed and a good returns policy is essential.

Thank you so much for your help!!! I''m also in Europe by the way. Do you know if there are other European on-line sellers than BlueNile (at least they seem to ship their diamonds from Ireland?

 

[Kashmira]

Some more questions:

* What is a "twinning wisp"?
* Is it really "bad" if the dept is 62,3%, the crown angle 34,5% but the pavillion angle 41,2%?
* Is there a huge difference between GIA certificate and GIA dossier?

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/21/2009 4:35:04 PM
Author: Kashmira

Date: 12/21/2009 4:09:05 PM
Author: FB.
In some countries (such as the UK - where I live), the population only cares about:

1. Carat.
2. Colour.
3. Clarity.

The cut grade is rarely asked. If a cut grade is required, we''re expected to decide based only on table % and depth %, or accecpt a lab-awarded grade.

There are some very good cut stones that look almost as good as excellent cuts. They are usually penalised to very good because of excessively thick girdles, but the crown and pavilion angles may be perfect.
But very good cut grade can also include some bad angle combinations.
In some cases, cutters ''dress mutton as lamb'' and try to cut ''overweight'' stones that only just make it into a particular cut grade.

-

I would rather have a well-cut H than a badly cut D.
If the cut is poor, the diamond will be like an inert lump of glass. If the cut is excellent, the diamond will have lots of sparkle and ''character''.

-

A certificate is very useful. Price for a 0.5ct stone to be certified would be perhaps $50-75 (plus shipping).

If you''re unable to view a diamond before purchasing, I''d suggest the following very strict parameters that will almost certainly weed-out the badly cut stones.

GIA certificate

Excellent cut

Excellent polish

Excellent symmetry

Medium girdle, or thin-medium, or medium-slightly thick. Don''t accept thin-slightly thick as the stone''s performance can suffer and cutters tricks can be hidden in a variable girdle

Table: 55-58%

Total depth: no more than 61.8%

Crown and pavilion angle: 34.5/40.8, or 35.0/40.8, or 35.0/40.6, or 34.0/41.0. Only accept one of those complementary angle sets.

-

It is possible to stray outside of those guidelines in some instances if you know the compromises that will result, but they are ''very safe'' - although nothing is 100% guaranteed and a good returns policy is essential.

Thank you so much for your help!!! I''m also in Europe by the way. Do you know if there are other European on-line sellers than BlueNile (at least they seem to ship their diamonds from Ireland?

Sadly, although there are plenty of online sellers, there aren''t many European one''s that (in my opinion) offer good information, good service, good diamonds and good prices. The USA seems to be a generation ahead.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree there are less EU sellers.
The main reason is the fact that the US market is far and away larger than any other diamond consumer market in the world.
The UK is probably number two, having made string gains ( in our experience) over the past 10 years.
However it''s this disparity in consumer markets that caused this situation in the first place. No surprise US sellers are far ahead at this point.
I fully expect European growth both in diamond consumption, as well as seeing more ( and better) sellers to fill the void.

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/29/2009 12:38:41 AM
Author: Kashmira
Some more questions:

* What is a 'twinning wisp'?
* Is it really 'bad' if the dept is 62,3%, the crown angle 34,5% but the pavillion angle 41,2%?
* Is there a huge difference between GIA certificate and GIA dossier?

A twinning wisp....ah...yes....

They are not acceptable to some people - some regard them as a weak point, like a feather. I agree there's the potential, but the risk is small and I would still consider exceptional stones with wisps.

They are basically a "scar" where two or more diamonds grew side-by-side and eventually their structures fused together. Quite often, twinning wisps are found in irregular shaped (and cheaper) diamond rough. It is more common to see wisps in fancy shapes such as pears, since the fancy shape will have been a more economical use of an unusually shaped piece of rough.
Twinning wisps are quite variable. Wisps generally resemble the appearance of a column of smoke from a chimney - a fuzzy stripe that weaves it's way through the diamond. Basically, the stipe contains minute particles that were trapped between the two diamonds when they fused. Mostly pinpoints and small clouds. The clarity grade of the stone would suggest the size and severity of the wisp. Although wisps are marked witha stright red line, they often have slight curves and tend to be much wider (but less dense) than the line implies.
Some wisps are eye clean, others are not. Some can impair the brilliance of a stone due to scattering light that passes through them, while others have no effect. Consider wisps to be a kind of hybrid between a feather and a cloud.
Here's a stone of mine, with twinning wisps as the grade makers (SI2 clarity). I've modified the plot to show the extent of the wisps (when viewed with a loupe). Ironically, the wisps are 100% eye clean and have no noticeable effect on brilliance. It's the second-grade-setter (feathers) that are not 100% eye clean in some lighting if you know where to look and what to look for. Still a very nice stone though.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Kashmira, I'm in the UK and I've bought from several US vendors without any problems at all. I've event sent stuff back for a trade up. The only thing to bear in mind is the import duty you'll have to pay. Even with that, it can sometimes still be a better deal than buying locally.

My round brilliant studs are J SI2 and KSI1 and I can't tell them apart. They are both white and clean and a great deal for earrings. It's about personal preference, but I'm happy with the colour, I've never seen them look yellow.

Hope you find something that makes your heart sing!

Jen

ETA I personally think fluorescence is cool and all else being equal, I'd choose a stone with over one without.

 

[BobR]

If you do a search on twinning wisps you will find quite a number of threads on them.
Also
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/InclusionGallery/

gives a good view of these inclusions. General view is that in SI grades these can be ''good'' inclusions as they are hardly ever visible to naked eye .However the threads imply that they can (in rare circumstances) cause problems. I''ve just bought a 0.80 SI1 GIA with 2 wisps and they''re no problem at all. Best to ask vendor to confirm no issues though.

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/29/2009 12:38:41 AM
Author: Kashmira
Some more questions:

* What is a ''twinning wisp''?
* Is it really ''bad'' if the dept is 62,3%, the crown angle 34,5% but the pavillion angle 41,2%?
* Is there a huge difference between GIA certificate and GIA dossier?

62.3% is not bad, but it''s more than it needs to be. The stone will "face-up" slightly smaller than a perfectly-cut stone of the same carat weight, due to your stone having excess weight in the bottom of the stone.

34.5/41.2 is a borderline combination that is risky due to rounding-off on lab reports and minor variations in the cut of each individual stone. Some stones will look almost perfect. Others will have a dark ring around the edge of the table. A stone with less-than-excellent symmetry and those angles may have very poor performance.

A certificate tends to show inclusion plots and is common for stones close to and above 1ct. Dossiers tend to be for stones below about 0.9ct and will just mention the clarity grade setters.

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/29/2009 2:27:29 PM
Author: BobR

General view is that in SI grades these can be 'good' inclusions as they are hardly ever visible to naked eye .However the threads imply that they can (in rare circumstances) cause problems. I've just bought a 0.80 SI1 GIA with 2 wisps and they're no problem at all. Best to ask vendor to confirm no issues though.

Twinning wisps may be difficult to see (and, like other "eye clean" SI stones, they can be outstanding value for money), but people should be cautious of all SI and lower clarity stones - without exception - unless they can personally inspect, or they have an expert opinion. There was a recent thread about an SI1 stone with a grade-setting cloud that caused the whole stone to look hazy (remember that wisps can resemble an elongated cloud).
Wisp's position tends to be in the middle of the stone, where they are sometimes able to reflect all around the stone and can sometimes make the whole stone turn dull and hazy.

I'm not "anti" any particular inclusion type or clarity grade (as demonstrated by the wispy SI2 plot above), but I'd rather caution about the possible problems than have people think that it's a guaranteed "something for nothing". In the world of diamonds, you don't tend to get something for nothing. A stone with SI clarity - no matter what the grade setting inclusion - needs careful consideration.

 

[yssie]

Date: 12/29/2009 2:40:02 PM
Author: FB.

Date: 12/29/2009 2:27:29 PM
Author: BobR

General view is that in SI grades these can be ''good'' inclusions as they are hardly ever visible to naked eye .However the threads imply that they can (in rare circumstances) cause problems. I''ve just bought a 0.80 SI1 GIA with 2 wisps and they''re no problem at all. Best to ask vendor to confirm no issues though.

Twinning wisps may be difficult to see (and, like other ''eye clean'' SI stones, they can be outstanding value for money), but people should be cautious of all SI and lower clarity stones - without exception - unless they can personally inspect, or they have an expert opinion. There was a recent thread about an SI1 stone with a grade-setting cloud that caused the whole stone to look hazy (remember that wisps can resemble an elongated cloud).
Wisp''s position tends to be in the middle of the stone, where they are sometimes able to reflect all around the stone and can sometimes make the whole stone turn dull and hazy.

I''m not ''anti'' any particular inclusion type or clarity grade (as demonstrated by the wispy SI2 plot above), but I''d rather caution about the possible problems than have people think that it''s a guaranteed ''something for nothing''. In the world of diamonds, you don''t tend to get something for nothing. A stone with SI clarity - no matter what the grade setting inclusion - needs careful consideration.

From a very happy SI2 owner - ditto. every. word.

 

[Kashmira]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I decided to get the diamond (the one with slightly more dept than desired and with the 34.5/41.2"borderline combination" with with the twinning wisp after the jeweller (I have worked with her before and have been very satisfied) assured me that is was eyeclean and exceptionally brilliant and a perfect match to the other diamond (H/I colour, SI1 clarity and both diamonds are excellent cut with excellent symmetry and polish and they come with GIA dossier reports). I hope that they will look great!

 

[yssie]

Can''t wait to see finished pics!!

 

[Dreamer_D]

I want to see pictures when its all set!

 

[Kashmira]

I''ll show pics once I receive them. I think that they come with a "standard" 4 prong setting but I might have them reset. I am very bad at uploading pics but I have seen the attached setting IRL it was pretty (the prongs look like small hearts)- what do you think?!

 

[Kashmira]

I have also seen the attached setting- which one do you think would compliment the diamonds (given its size of total 1.02 ct) the best?