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Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've gotten

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Jun 24, 2016
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26
Hi, Ron here looking for help regarding some images I've gotten from an online vendor. It is a .9 carat whose dimensions on the HCA give a 1.0 result. The images seem inverted to me. Where you would see black, you see white, etc. Anyway, I'm gonna try to upload them images and give this a go. Since I'm new it might take me a couple of tries to bear with me if you will.

Thank You, Ron

93image.png

93ha.png

93is.png

93ns.png
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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55,633
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

That stone has leakage. You can do better. Can you please tell us what the table, depth, crown and pavilion angles are?
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

OK,

61.8 depth

56% table

34 degree crown angle

40.8 pavilion

medium to slightly thick girdle

GIA cut grade Excellent

These dimensions lead to a 1.0 grade on the HCA advisor. Seems like a nice stone, but some of the images don't look like the ones I've seen.

Thanks, Ron
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466805341|4047785 said:
OK,

61.8 depth

56% table

34 degree crown angle

40.8 pavilion

medium to slightly thick girdle

These dimensions lead to a 1.0 grade on the HCA advisor. Seems like a nice stone, but some of the images don't look like the ones I've seen.

Thanks, Ron
What??? I expected a deep crown /deep pav combo.
Interesting stone..
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Any idea why the images came back kinda opposite? The straight on looks off center. No way to know if that is the cut or simply the angle the pic was taken at, right?
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

I agree that the 'proper photo' picture looks to be slightly off-centre.

HCA is a rejection tool instead of a selection tool - anything under 2.0 indicates it is a stone with a good likelyhood of being a nice rock - so the 1.0 is not indicative of anything in particular.

That said, I am also surprised at the leakage under the table with a good HCA score - if you have put the diamond on hold, can you post the rest of the information on the stone but without naming the vendor? That will mean that the Trade experts might comment as well. (If you mention the vendor then they cannot comment.)
 

JDDN

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Really interesting. I guess this is why an ASET is key and why if you don't have to, don't just go on the numbers. Would love it if a trade person would weigh in on the ASET. Looks like there's some painting/digging going on?
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

In addition to light leakage, I am interested to know about the complete absence of any contrast (arrows) under tue table in the aset and the actual image
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

You have lost me a bit. I have looked at lots of images, and as a newb, I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. The vendor claimed that there is lots of variation in photo taking ability and quality. They also said that with this grade of stone there isn't much chance of doing badly. GIA Excellent grade. I understand that cut is key. Sorry if I'm way off base but I am almost a complete newb and am definitely out of my range here. Could the figures look really good but the cut be so bad that the light leakage causes an inversion in the photo's?

I'm also not sure what is meant by rest of the information.

Also I'm not sure what painting and digging is...

Thanks for helping me here,

Ron
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466810826|4047835 said:
I guess I don't understand what I am looking at.
Nor do we regulars in this instance, hence we are confused! :lol:

The numbers should give the sort of ASET we are all expecting, with arrows and contrast and little leakage - instead there is little contrast in the arrows and lots of leakage!

I think perhaps it must be borderline on a couple of the angles, meaning they don't complement each other and hence the light performance is not great.

Painting and Digging describes techniques applied to the girdle - I don't quite understand them fully myself :???: lol

Hopefully a trade expert will comment soon! :)


GIA XXX does not mean it will automatically be an excellent stone - they allow steep/deep angle/pavilion combo's,which cause light leakage like we see here. AGS000 is much tighter on cut - if you want a guaranteed good performer, AGS000 is where you should be looking :)
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466810826|4047835 said:
Could the figures look really good but the cut be so bad that the light leakage causes an inversion in the photo's?
Ron
The images seem inverted to me. Where you would see black, you see white,
Regarding the inversion of white and black, are you talking about white arrows in the image #3?
If so, that's normal.
The image #2 and #3 are taken thru a hearts & arrows viewer, NOT THRU A IDEALSCOPE, which shows arrows (contrast) in black.

Some of us are puzzled as well: the blatant light leakage (circle of white/green under the table in image #4), signs of painting/digging (greens around the edge in image #4), and lack of contrast (no blue arrow in image #4)

:confused: :confused: :confused:

What we know is, as DS2006 said, this is not a stone you want to buy.
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Messages
26
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Yes, image 3 is the one with the inversion. Thanks for letting me know that is normal.

Hmmm, so you are saying there has been some doctoring of photo's here?

OK, so I should let this one go eh?

Dang!!! Double Dang!!!!!!

I guess you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. ...

Any other comments would be helpful. I've learned more in this post than in all of my online reading, and that has been prodigious...

Thanks again,

Ron
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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7,213
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466811932|4047847 said:
Yes, image 3 is the one with the inversion. Thanks for letting me know that is normal.

Hmmm, so you are saying there has been some doctoring of photo's here?

OK, so I should let this one go eh?

Dang!!! Double Dang!!!!!!

I guess you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. ...

Any other comments would be helpful. I've learned more in this post than in all of my online reading, and that has been prodigious...

Thanks again,

Ron
I don't think it is doctoring of images (as that would be unethical and wrong and should be called out), more that this stone has an unusual combination of angles that does it no favours - this is why the ASETscope and IdealScope were invented, along with the HCA tool, to weed out these sort of borderline stones and ensure a stone with good light return is bought :)

If you let us know your budget (for the stone and overall with the ring) and what specs you are looking for on the stone (colour/clarity/size - we'll take wanting Ideal/Excellent cut as a given :D) we can find you something that will knock your socks off :)


Check out the Knowledge tab at the top of the forum if you haven't already, plenty in there to keep you busy for a while! :D
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

I thank you for the offer of help, and I will gladly take it . Now where should I make my post asking for help?

Thanks again,

Ron
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Could either post them in this thread or start a new one!

I think I'd start with this thread, then perhaps you can get some comments and suggestions to consider, which you can start an 'A or B?' sort of post if required!
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

O.K., here goes.

I've got a budget of between 5 and 6 thousand for an engagement ring. My girlfriend likes silver for the color so platinum is the metal. I suppose it could be that lighter metal also, if that would get a better stone and still be of high quality and be tasteful. She has said she likes solitaires, but I bet she would like a 3 stone ring also, and I'm picturing two pears surrounding a round stone. If I can't find one nice enough in my range I'd downshift to a larger solitaire. I've been reading the the sweet spot for stones and platinum color is an I or J, VS2 or SI1. I'd get the best cut stone in the largest carat weight I could wrangle and stay within budget. She has large hands, with a size 7.5 ring finger, so this makes the selection harder. Multiple stones to match her hand, or larger center stone to do the same? I'm open to anything that is reasonable. I'm not knowledgeable about jewelry, so anything you could do to guide me is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Ron :wavey:
 

LUNAJEWELS

Rough_Rock
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Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

The image is a very interesting one for this angle combo and may very well be an example of what one might term ... "double digging".

Firstly the greens in the upper half region is hard evidence of digging the upper halves but perhaps not quite enough to get dinged at GIA.

For the layman just hearing about "painting and digging" just think of "digging" as a means of cutting the upper half angles too steep. Ie. Just like you can have steep/deep crown pavilion angle combos so too can a diamond have "steep/deep" upper and lower half angle relationships. This is what I believe we are seeing here in an HCA 1.0 diamond with seemingly cherry crown/pavilion angles and also cut with really nice precision as well.

This is something not featured on the HCA nor on GIA's online facetware tool but would only be detected in a live analysis on their leased proprietary Facetware program if it were enough to get dinged. I would also be curious to see how this diamond would perform on the AGS PGS (Light Performance Grading Software). It may in fact get as low as a 2 on the AGS scale.

So in brief ... steep/deep upper/lower half angles would be my educated guess.

Hope that helps.

diggingupperlowers.jpg
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Thank you for you're great explanation. I imagine a stone would be cut this way to maximize weight. Is that correct?

Thanks again,

Ron
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466868304|4048203 said:
Thank you for you're great explanation. I imagine a stone would be cut this way to maximize weight. Is that correct?

Thanks again,

Ron
Sure does. ;-)
 

JDDN

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Awesome, thank you Jonathan!!
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

JDDN|1466871616|4048224 said:
Awesome, thank you Jonathan!!
A pleasure to serve. :)
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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7,474
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

scubaduderon|1466810826|4047835 said:
You have lost me a bit. I have looked at lots of images, and as a newb, I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. The vendor claimed that there is lots of variation in photo taking ability and quality. They also said that with this grade of stone there isn't much chance of doing badly. GIA Excellent grade. I understand that cut is key. Sorry if I'm way off base but I am almost a complete newb and am definitely out of my range here. Could the figures look really good but the cut be so bad that the light leakage causes an inversion in the photo's?

I'm also not sure what is meant by rest of the information.

Also I'm not sure what painting and digging is...

Thanks for helping me here,

Ron
Agreed, there is a LOT of variation in photo quality and ability.

Bogus, there is a LOT of chance of a GIA Excellent being relatively poorly cut. GIA Excellent cut grade can regularly grade as low as AGS 3 - 5. The GIA system just can NOT be counted on when trying to select the best of the best for cutting.

Wink
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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6,272
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Wink|1466873056|4048232 said:
scubaduderon|1466810826|4047835 said:
You have lost me a bit. I have looked at lots of images, and as a newb, I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. The vendor claimed that there is lots of variation in photo taking ability and quality. They also said that with this grade of stone there isn't much chance of doing badly. GIA Excellent grade. I understand that cut is key. Sorry if I'm way off base but I am almost a complete newb and am definitely out of my range here. Could the figures look really good but the cut be so bad that the light leakage causes an inversion in the photo's?

I'm also not sure what is meant by rest of the information.

Also I'm not sure what painting and digging is...

Thanks for helping me here,

Ron
Agreed, there is a LOT of variation in photo quality and ability.

Bogus, there is a LOT of chance of a GIA Excellent being relatively poorly cut. GIA Excellent cut grade can regularly grade as low as AGS 3 - 5. The GIA system just can NOT be counted on when trying to select the best of the best for cutting.

Wink
Yea but think when you hear 61.8% depth, 34/40.8 combo. The first word or image that comes to mind is not that ASET eh?
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Rhino|1466873212|4048233 said:
Wink|1466873056|4048232 said:
scubaduderon|1466810826|4047835 said:
You have lost me a bit. I have looked at lots of images, and as a newb, I guess I don't understand what I am looking at. The vendor claimed that there is lots of variation in photo taking ability and quality. They also said that with this grade of stone there isn't much chance of doing badly. GIA Excellent grade. I understand that cut is key. Sorry if I'm way off base but I am almost a complete newb and am definitely out of my range here. Could the figures look really good but the cut be so bad that the light leakage causes an inversion in the photo's?

I'm also not sure what is meant by rest of the information.

Also I'm not sure what painting and digging is...

Thanks for helping me here,

Ron
Agreed, there is a LOT of variation in photo quality and ability.

Bogus, there is a LOT of chance of a GIA Excellent being relatively poorly cut. GIA Excellent cut grade can regularly grade as low as AGS 3 - 5. The GIA system just can NOT be counted on when trying to select the best of the best for cutting.

Wink
Yea but think when you hear 61.8% depth, 34/40.8 combo. The first word or image that comes to mind is not that ASET eh?
No, that would "seem" to be unusual, but with GIA's overly aggressive rounding, who knows what these angles really are. With a Sarine report we could plug it in to many different softwares to see what is really going on. Also, even with correct angles, the precision of the faceting is going to have dramatic affect on the size and placement of the virtual facets. The FACT that the apparent combinations of angles are good and the reality of the images are proof that reading angles from a report are only a start. One must have access to the images, and more importantly, one must eventually be able to see and decide with one's OWN eyes as to whether or not the stone makes those eye happy.

Another possibility is that somehow there is an accidental mixing of the report numbers looking good and the images being shown belonging to an entirely different diamond. It certainly would not be done on purpose since the images make the stone look horrible.

In any case, I am betting that if our OP looked at this diamond side by side with a truly well cut diamond that this diamond would not be judged as "good enough."

Wink
 

scubaduderon

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Thank you guys for your very interesting and informative answers.

I am continuing to wait for suggestions as to what I could do with my budget and ideas. I have posted the criterion above and gotten one reply so far. I am afraid that folks will miss it because it is buried inside a rather long post. Should I pull it out and make a new post of it with a more appropriate title. Perhaps something like "Newb need help with and engagement ring with a 6000 budget'?

Thanks again,

Ron
 

JustinVu

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Messages
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Rhino|1466869953|4048217 said:
scubaduderon|1466868304|4048203 said:
Thank you for you're great explanation. I imagine a stone would be cut this way to maximize weight. Is that correct?

Thanks again,

Ron
Sure does. ;-)
Hi Rhino,

I'm always amazed by the amount of knowledge you have. I've also watched many of your youtube videos and always been impressed.

OP, I'm sorry to jack your post and I just hope you don't mind me asking Rhino 1 question, just because I don't have much time left to decide.

I've recently deposited on one square radiant and I think I have a few days to make a final decision. It is a 1.51ct, EX polish & Symmetry, D VS1, thick girdle none cutlet none fluo, measured at 6.15x6.16x4.33. The diamond costs ~$10k USD. Do you think it is a fair price for what it is ?

I've seen the diamond in person and still don't know how to express my feeling as I don't have a benchmark to compare with and I think it performs just as well as some of your hand-picked radiant - as seen on utube.

Could you please help me having a look at the video below and let me know your opinions and anything I should be aware of or question the jeweller?

**edited by moderator, no personal video links per our policies**

Unfortunately I couldn't get an ASET image but I've seen the image with a handheld ASET version. it looks like the one below but a lot more red in the centre.
asetradwhite_0.jpg

I really appreciate if you could help me Rhino and again OP, I'm so sorry
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
55,633
Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Justin, you need to post a new thread. You can see from your ASET that there is little red and a lot of white/leakage. But it is very hard to impossible to find radiants with great light return.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

Some awesome input in this thread :dance: :sun:
 

gm89uk

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Re: Newb here looking for help regarding some images I've go

I was sure the crown angle was going to be at least 36. Interesting, thanks for sharing. If the average was 34 and 40.8, surely at least SOME of the diamond wouldn't have such leakage, but this seems 360degree! It's interesting you can see how much leakage there is in the photo even without the idealscope/ASET.
 
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