New Diamond 'upgrade' what makes it really shine?

[bunnycat]

but is the secondary light path leakage common on RB's at tilted angles?

yep happens with all diamonds.
first image is ASET black. The background behind the diamond is black. Black is leakage.
second image exactly the same but ASET with a white background. White is leakage.
Compare the black areas with the white, noticed there is more white than black.
The leakage of all types did not change just the back lighting changed.
In the areas where there is leakage rather than secondary light path leakage it will be white in one and black in the other in the same place.

Cool- thanks for the tilted ASET images.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This topic is likely to continue here:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/advice-needed-on-idealscope.228339/?uid=1006

 

[cokewithvanilla]

Hell everyone, im back. I dont know what happened, but i lost my password. In the time i was gone, Soloman brothers hasnt gotten back to me at all (excellent customer service lol)... and I found the sheet they gave me.... looks like they didnt give me a report at all,. that report number doesnt come up. I called EGL usa and they told me that EGL isreal isnt them, and they sued EGL Isreal for using their name... lovely.

 

[bmfang]

Hell everyone, im back. I dont know what happened, but i lost my password. In the time i was gone, Soloman brothers hasnt gotten back to me at all (excellent customer service lol)... and I found the sheet they gave me.... looks like they didnt give me a report at all,. that report number doesnt come up. I called EGL usa and they told me that EGL isreal isnt them, and they sued EGL Isreal for using their name... lovely.

The chances of your original stone being anywhere near (or close to) its "graded" spec went out the door now that you found the original correspondence which stated it was EGL Israel graded. Of all of the labs that carry the EGL name, they had the reputation of being the most lax at grading anything appropriately.

If Solomon were to buy back your original diamond in an upgrade transaction, they would likely be unable to re-sell it to someone else as my understanding is that EGL Israel stones are hard to offload these days.

 

[bunnycat]

Hell everyone, im back. I dont know what happened, but i lost my password. In the time i was gone, Soloman brothers hasnt gotten back to me at all (excellent customer service lol)... and I found the sheet they gave me.... looks like they didnt give me a report at all,. that report number doesnt come up. I called EGL usa and they told me that EGL isreal isnt them, and they sued EGL Isreal for using their name... lovely.

Well- Mostly all I can say if it was EGL Isreal, then it most likely not an F either (think more like I-J) nor VS clarity...think more like SI....

And it is likely as I said earlier. If they bought it back, they are going to have to send it for grading at GIA in order to resell it and it will not come back as a F VS....And on top of that, if they can't offer you full price that you paid in trade and only a portion, then you will probably be offered a portion of what a similar sized (GIA graded) I/J Si stone would be worth.....

I know this is very frustrating for you. I still think the best thing to do if you want to deal with them is go there in person to make any sort of transaction with them and take an idealscope with you and the Pricescope "cheat sheet" of diamond proportions posted a couple of times in this thread and only look at GIA or AGS stones.

Otherwise, my earlier advice remains the same. If you know you are being asked to spend $12K minimum, and you are likely to only get offered a few $K for the previous stone, would it be better to just move on and work with a $9-10K budget with a RELIABLE vendor? And then get what you can for the old stone on the secondary market/

 

[Lore]

Otherwise, my earlier advice remains the same. If you know you are being asked to spend $12K minimum, and you are likely to only get offered a few $K for the previous stone, would it be better to just move on and work with a $9-10K budget with a RELIABLE vendor? And then get what you can for the old stone on the secondary market/

This is what I'd do. Starting over would most likely get you the quality that you want and protect your new purchase. Whatever you can get for the EGL Israel diamond is cream on top!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You are being given good advice. It is likey your original stone was a grade lower in both color and clarity = maybe half the cost less the $100 or so for a new GIA cert to make it saleable.
it was your fault too for trying to get a supa dupa bargain - ya get's what ya pay's for in life (if your lucky).
take what youy can and buy a decent stone that represents your relationship every time you glance at it sparkling too you

 

[SimoneDi]

Cokewithvanilla, I am so sorry for the situation you are finding yourself in. I am not sure if this has been suggested before, but my advise to you will actually be to recut your stone, if possible. Unfortunately, your current "report" on the stone does not hold any value on the market and from what you have shared, it seems that even though Solomon Brothers initially agreed to accept your diamond as a "trade in", they are not committing to their promise. Instead, they are asking you to pay in full for a new stone - crazy! And on top of that their stones have the typical "brick and mortar" markups, so you will be paying more for the supposed upgrade...Here is my best advise to you:
1. Call Brian Gavin Diamonds and send them your current stone for evaluation (please make sure that the stone is insured before you send it).
2. Hopefully, the stone will be eligible for a recut. The cost to you will be about $350 per carat, so you are looking at about $441 total cost for the recut. I have personally recut several stones with BGD and in most cases the carat and diameter loss was minimal, but that all depends on your diamond and current cut. The last stone that I recut with them was 6-something on HCA, and now that same stone is an AGS000.
3. Have BGD send the newly recut stone to AGS for grading. The cost for the report is $250 + shipping.
4. From there, you will have several options:
4.1 You love and wear your newly recut diamond. You mentioned that size is not necessarily what you want to upgrade, but that you want your diamond to "shine". If you do the recut, 100% your diamond will look amazing!
4.2 If you are lucky, your stone may come back as AGS000. Sometimes, if Brian Gavin considers the recut diamond up to his signature diamonds' standards, he would offer a "buy-in" option. I did this with my last recut. The cost depends on evaluated trade-in value, size, color, etc. and it is not cheap, but for me it was worth it. If that happens, you can then choose to trade in your diamond for another ideal cut stone from the BGD signature lines.
4.3 Sell your newly cut diamond on the secondary market. You probably wouldn't know what is a reasonable price until you get your stone certified again by a credible lab. Nonetheless, an ideal or close to ideal cut diamond holds much more value than an fraudulent EGL report.
5. Lastly, I should say - if I were you, I would run as fast as possible and as far away as possible from Solomon Brothers. If you go on Yelp and actually look at some of the 102 reviews that are currently "not recommended", you would find plenty of negative reviews and one in particular reads the following:
"PLEASE DO NOT GO HERE!!! EGL Israel fraud! NOT A SMART INVESTMENT!

After getting my engagement ring re-appraised, I discovered that what I thought was a diamond with color grade F was actually an I. Big discrepancy. More than one GIA certified expert confirmed this revelation for me. My fiance was educated to believe he was investing in a better diamond. DO NOT buy EGL certified diamonds especially Israel. They are fraudulent. Buy a diamond that is GIA certified. You are getting what you pay for and will get your money back down the road if you are thinking about upgrading.

Educate yourself on certification as well as the 4 Cs."

That pretty much says it all.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but I hope that you consider the above suggested.

 

[cokewithvanilla]

Thanks for all the input. I take it if i tell soloman brothers that they screwed me, they wouldnt help out.

As far as recutting, if I recut ill still have a low quality stone. But my question would be if they recut it perfectly, why not just buy any stone and have them recut for $450? If we are paying tons for perfect cuts, why is it only $450 to recut?

 

[bunnycat]

Thanks for all the input. I take it if i tell soloman brothers that they screwed me, they wouldnt help out.

As far as recutting, if I recut ill still have a low quality stone. But my question would be if they recut it perfectly, why not just buy any stone and have them recut for $450? If we are paying tons for perfect cuts, why is it only $450 to recut?

It's not $450 to recut and stone. It's $350 per carat..... so a 2ct stone would run $700-1000 once the final bill was in and grading reports were made.

Not all stones are going to be good candidates for recuts.

It will not improve your stones color (which is surely not an F, but at least you would find out it's true color by having it graded correctly). It will also improve its light performance. As was mentioned, it can make it easier to resell since you will have a better cut (and therefore more valuable) stone. Also as was mentioned, you might have the possibility of it being able to be recut so well that it becomes eligible to be "branded" AGS000 and labeled as such by BG, then you could use it as a trade in for one of his other stones you like better....just a thought....

As it is now, an ungraded (or EGL Israel graded) stone is going to be hard for you to move....

And FWIW if your stone came back an H or an I Si with beautiful light performance, that is not a low quality stone, IMO. IMO, a low quality stone is one that is cut poorly. You are thinking in big box jewelry store terms again- that a high color high clarity stone is automatically good quality, and that is very much NOT the case.

 

[SimoneDi]

Thanks for all the input. I take it if i tell soloman brothers that they screwed me, they wouldnt help out.

As far as recutting, if I recut ill still have a low quality stone. But my question would be if they recut it perfectly, why not just buy any stone and have them recut for $450? If we are paying tons for perfect cuts, why is it only $450 to recut?

It's not $450 to recut and stone. It's $350 per carat..... so a 2ct stone would run $700-1000 once the final bill was in and grading reports were made.

Not all stones are going to be good candidates for recuts.

It will not improve your stones color (which is surely not an F, but at least you would find out it's true color by having it graded correctly). It will also improve its light performance. As was mentioned, it can make it easier to resell since you will have a better cut (and therefore more valuable) stone. Also as was mentioned, you might have the possibility of it being able to be recut so well that it becomes eligible to be "branded" AGS000 and labeled as such by BG, then you could use it as a trade in for one of his other stones you like better....just a thought....

As it is now, an ungraded (or EGL Israel graded) stone is going to be hard for you to move....

And FWIW if your stone came back an H or an I Si with beautiful light performance, that is not a low quality stone, IMO. IMO, a low quality stone is one that is cut poorly. You are thinking in big box jewelry store terms again- that a high color high clarity stone is automatically good quality, and that is very much NOT the case.

What bunnycat said. Please understand that the "quality" of a diamond does not depend on color only, or clarity only, or any of the 4cs only. When we talk about diamonds, especially round ones - the MOST IMPORTANT thing is CUT. Based on the report that you showed us, we don't even know how good or bad the cut of your stone is, but considering that you would like a diamond that "shines", we can probably assume that it is not that good. I have a J/SI2 and a K/VS1 diamonds (bunnycat, I have to post them in your new thread!) and I can assure you that they are not "poor quality" both are AGS000 and sparkle like a night sky. We are not trying to give you bad advice here, so please seriously consider all recommendations that you have received so far..

 

[cokewithvanilla]

I just called BGD they said they could probably retain 1 carat. ouch. It doesnt seem like a bad thing to send it to them, as all I will have to pay is return shipping if they cant do anything. I am going to end up selling the stone regardless. I could never be satisfied with this particular stone after this whole situation. I really have three options here, and i dont know if any of them are really better than the next

1. recut, sell the smaller stone. Cost 750 dollars + shipping + insurance. Call it 900.
2. Sell existing stone with setting. zero cost, probably low balled on price
3. Go to SB and insist that they uphold their policy.

I really hate to throw more money into this only to get something im going to sell... its like putting new tires on a car before selling, are you really going to get the price out of it??

edit: after reading that last post, i guess it wont hurt to send it off and see. If those stones really do shine and etc. maybe this one will . My only issue is that i swear i can see something in the stone in certain light, which i am worried will still be there after recut.

 

[bunnycat]

I just called BGD they said they could probably retain 1 carat. ouch. It doesnt seem like a bad thing to send it to them, as all I will have to pay is return shipping if they cant do anything. I am going to end up selling the stone regardless. I could never be satisfied with this particular stone after this whole situation. I really have three options here, and i dont know if any of them are really better than the next

1. recut, sell the smaller stone. Cost 750 dollars + shipping + insurance. Call it 900.
2. Sell existing stone with setting. zero cost, probably low balled on price
3. Go to SB and insist that they uphold their policy.

I really hate to throw more money into this only to get something im going to sell... its like putting new tires on a car before selling, are you really going to get the price out of it??

edit: after reading that last post, i guess it wont hurt to send it off and see. If those stones really do shine and etc. maybe this one will . My only issue is that i swear i can see something in the stone in certain light, which i am worried will still be there after recut.

The inclusions are surely something you can discuss with them if you send the stone in. But they have to be able to look at it first. And, in a BEST case scenario, they could recut it to ideal proportions and it could become one of their "branded" cuts and lasered so on the diamond (that does cost extra, but think the money spent as investing in a move towards your upgrade). And if it could be branded, then you might be able to trade it in with them for a larger stone.

Or, if that ends up not a possibility, then at least a well cut stone that has been properly graded can be consigned with some vendors to resell. In that case- you need to look at these as 2 separate issues. First- allocate budget for new stone with reliable vendor with GOOD upgrade policy. If you were going to have to spend 8-10K out of pocket anyway, then that is your budget now. Think of your recut as something else and not part of your upgrade budget but as something you can pay yourself back for, or use the money to upgrade again....since you will be working with a RELIABLE vendor. That is key. Reliable vendor. Whiteflash, Good old Gold, Brian Gavin...

I think you are going to have to take the LONG HAUL look at this and really think it through, not as wasting money, but as a means to get you where you want to go, which is with a raliable vendor with a good and well stated (in writing) upgrade policy.

I am sorry it is such a pain and so long and drawn out. I have been through not quite so much hassle, but similar issues where I had a stone (a small but nice one! ) but a terrible upgrade policy (to me). And it took me years to get out from under that and get myself IN where I had a good upgrade policy. I KNOW I wasted thousands of $$$ in the process. But, I finally got to the end result I am happy with. If only (of course) I'd had such foresight 5 1/2 years ago I'd have saved a lot of cash...but I didn't and all I could do, like you are doing now, is try to fix what went wrong and get somewhere you can be happier and feel more easy about buying when you want to buy.

 

[SimoneDi]

I am glad that you called BGD... ok, let's review your options;
Option 1 - Keep the stone as is.
1. You still cannot sell it with your fraudulent report and made up appraisal. You have to get a report from GIA. GIA costs $105 + shipping
2. I will use the help review and will assume that your stone will come back as I/SI1-SI2/Good Cut
3. If we look on Blue Nile for example, the average for alike stones is about $4,278.
4. On the secondary market, you are looking to see that at at least 20% discount, so at about $3,422.
5. If, best case scenario, the stone comes back at H/SI1/very good cut, you are looking at about $6,110 retail or $4,888 secondary market.
6. Please bear in mind that few, if any, people are looking for good or very good cut diamonds, so most likely you will have to sell at a steeper discount.

Option 2 - recut if possible

1. Recut cost as previously discussed plus certificate is at about $700 + shipping.
2. If it comes back at H/SI1-2/AGS000 and above 1ct, you are looking at an average retail cost of about $7,589 (BGD site) so 20% off that lands you at $6071.
3. And I color will probably be at about $600-6700 retail price or so (used WF as a comparison)
4. However, it is important to mention that ideal cut stones don't stay long even on the secondary market. Just open loupetroop or diamondbistro and search for BGD or ACA, see how many are still available and how many have sold.

My last comment is.. you think that you will be done with this stone, but you may really end up liking the results. Not to mention me again, but I thought that I would want to sell or trade in my K stone that was recently recut, because K - but I ended up loooving it!! If your stone ends up in the best possible scenario, you would have paid just a bit more over retail and that's actually a great scenario. But in the end, the diamond is yours, the choice is yours.

 

[bunnycat]

I am glad that you called BGD... ok, let's review your options;
Option 1 - Keep the stone as is.
1. You still cannot sell it with your fraudulent report and made up appraisal. You have to get a report from GIA. GIA costs $105 + shipping
2. I will use the help review and will assume that your stone will come back as I/SI1-SI2/Good Cut
3. If we look on Blue Nile for example, the average for alike stones is about $4,278.
4. On the secondary market, you are looking to see that at at least 20% discount, so at about $3,422.
5. If, best case scenario, the stone comes back at H/SI1/very good cut, you are looking at about $6,110 retail or $4,888 secondary market.
6. Please bear in mind that few, if any, people are looking for good or very good cut diamonds, so most likely you will have to sell at a steeper discount.

Option 2 - recut if possible

1. Recut cost as previously discussed plus certificate is at about $700 + shipping.
2. If it comes back at H/SI1-2/AGS000 and above 1ct, you are looking at an average retail cost of about $7,589 (BGD site) so 20% off that lands you at $6071.
3. And I color will probably be at about $600-6700 retail price or so (used WF as a comparison)
4. However, it is important to mention that ideal cut stones don't stay long even on the secondary market. Just open loupetroop or diamondbistro and search for BGD or ACA, see how many are still available and how many have sold.

My last comment is.. you think that you will be done with this stone, but you may really end up liking the results. Not to mention me again, but I thought that I would want to sell or trade in my K stone that was recently recut, because K - but I ended up loooving it!! If your stone ends up in the best possible scenario, you would have paid just a bit more over retail and that's actually a great scenario. But in the end, the diamond is yours, the choice is yours.

wow- thanks for doing the pricing research SimoneDi!

 

[SimoneDi]

I am glad that you called BGD... ok, let's review your options;
Option 1 - Keep the stone as is.
1. You still cannot sell it with your fraudulent report and made up appraisal. You have to get a report from GIA. GIA costs $105 + shipping
2. I will use the help review and will assume that your stone will come back as I/SI1-SI2/Good Cut
3. If we look on Blue Nile for example, the average for alike stones is about $4,278.
4. On the secondary market, you are looking to see that at at least 20% discount, so at about $3,422.
5. If, best case scenario, the stone comes back at H/SI1/very good cut, you are looking at about $6,110 retail or $4,888 secondary market.
6. Please bear in mind that few, if any, people are looking for good or very good cut diamonds, so most likely you will have to sell at a steeper discount.

Option 2 - recut if possible

1. Recut cost as previously discussed plus certificate is at about $700 + shipping.
2. If it comes back at H/SI1-2/AGS000 and above 1ct, you are looking at an average retail cost of about $7,589 (BGD site) so 20% off that lands you at $6071.
3. And I color will probably be at about $600-6700 retail price or so (used WF as a comparison)
4. However, it is important to mention that ideal cut stones don't stay long even on the secondary market. Just open loupetroop or diamondbistro and search for BGD or ACA, see how many are still available and how many have sold.

My last comment is.. you think that you will be done with this stone, but you may really end up liking the results. Not to mention me again, but I thought that I would want to sell or trade in my K stone that was recently recut, because K - but I ended up loooving it!! If your stone ends up in the best possible scenario, you would have paid just a bit more over retail and that's actually a great scenario. But in the end, the diamond is yours, the choice is yours.

wow- thanks for doing the pricing research SimoneDi!

Ha! No problemo As you can see, clearly I prefer to research diamond prices vs do my day job

 

[bmfang]

I just called BGD they said they could probably retain 1 carat. ouch. It doesnt seem like a bad thing to send it to them, as all I will have to pay is return shipping if they cant do anything. I am going to end up selling the stone regardless. I could never be satisfied with this particular stone after this whole situation. I really have three options here, and i dont know if any of them are really better than the next

1. recut, sell the smaller stone. Cost 750 dollars + shipping + insurance. Call it 900.
2. Sell existing stone with setting. zero cost, probably low balled on price
3. Go to SB and insist that they uphold their policy.

I really hate to throw more money into this only to get something im going to sell... its like putting new tires on a car before selling, are you really going to get the price out of it??

edit: after reading that last post, i guess it wont hurt to send it off and see. If those stones really do shine and etc. maybe this one will . My only issue is that i swear i can see something in the stone in certain light, which i am worried will still be there after recut.

Wholeheartedly agree with the advice given by bunnycat and SimoneDi.

cokewithvanilla, if you have only seen diamonds at bricks and mortar stores like Solomon Bros, Zales, Kay's (or the equivalent stores I have here in Australia, e.g. Shiels, Wallace Bishop, Salera's), the stones are not that well cut, even if they are selling GIA graded XXX stones. To the average person, they will sparkle, but that is until those average persons do their research and go online (I am one of those people).

If you can get this stone recut by BGD and you still retain a carat along with having AGS000 Light Performance after BGD send it off to AGS to grade it, you will still likely come out "ahead" of the position you are in now should you sell the stone with an essentially worthless grading report and appraisal. If the stone has an inclusion smack bang in the middle of it, a recut will not get rid of it. What the recut may do however is help mask the presence of the inclusion to the viewer as a super ideal cut stone will have the ability to reflect more light back up to the viewer than a conventionally cut stone which has likely been cut for weight retention. And that will set your stone apart from other stones on the secondary market.

 

[acezarra]

I have had two diamonds recut by BGD. The second lost surface area and .15 carats because it was shallow. However, the recut was stunning. It was from a previous marriage and I wanted to sell it which I did, for a profit. Losing carat size but gaining a damn fiery diamond earned me money.

It is worth it. 100%.

 

[bunnycat]

Ha! No problemo As you can see, clearly I prefer to research diamond prices vs do my day job

SOmetimes you just need a l'il diamond break....

I have had two diamonds recut by BGD. The second lost surface area and .15 carats because it was shallow. However, the recut was stunning. It was from a previous marriage and I wanted to sell it which I did, for a profit. Losing carat size but gaining a damn fiery diamond earned me money.

It is worth it. 100%.

I'd love to see the recut thread! Did you have one?

 

[acezarra]

Ha! No problemo As you can see, clearly I prefer to research diamond prices vs do my day job

SOmetimes you just need a l'il diamond break....

I have had two diamonds recut by BGD. The second lost surface area and .15 carats because it was shallow. However, the recut was stunning. It was from a previous marriage and I wanted to sell it which I did, for a profit. Losing carat size but gaining a damn fiery diamond earned me money.

It is worth it. 100%.

I'd love to see the recut thread! Did you have one?

No but I should definitely do one! The first recut was from my dad's old engagement ring that had turned into a pair of studs for his wife. The second was mine. I'll see if I can scrounge up some pics!