Negotiating Online Purchases

[simpleton]

I've been told before that "anything" is subject to negotiation, especially large purchases. I know some B&M stores can be negotiated with but I haven't seen any threads about negotiating discounts with these online dealers. Has anyone ever tried negotiating with the trusted dealers here like GoG, WF, BGD etc? What was the result?

 

[Anon-E-Mouse]

Everything is subject to negotiation, but there are limits. Your B&M shops will mark up their goods 'till hell won't have it. Basically, most legit vendors these days work between a %4-%12 markup depending on the product. Personally, I won't begrudge them that. Let 'em make a living.

 

[yssie]

If by negotiation you mean asking the best price they can do, or saying you have a budget of X and would like Y, and what can we compromise on to make it, then it surely doesn't hurt to ask! If you are buying both custom setting and stone from the same vendor they may be able to wiggle a little.

If by negotiating you mean haggling of the sort that my grandfather used to do at the fruit bazaars in India, then - probably not

 

[yssie]

If by negotiation you mean asking the best price they can do, or saying you have a budget of X and would like Y, and what can we compromise on to make it, then it surely doesn't hurt to ask! If you are buying both custom setting and stone from the same vendor they may be able to wiggle a little.

If by negotiating you mean haggling of the sort that my grandfather used to do at the fruit bazaars in India, then - probably not


ETA: huh. not sure why I can't delete the double.

 

[SB621]

If by negotiation you mean asking the best price they can do, or saying you have a budget of X and would like Y, and what can we compromise on to make it, then it surely doesn't hurt to ask! If you are buying both custom setting and stone from the same vendor they may be able to wiggle a little.

If by negotiating you mean haggling of the sort that my grandfather used to do at the fruit bazaars in India, then - probably not


ETA: huh. not sure why I can't delete the double.

+1 except I will edit to say markets in eastern europe

 

[BAM54321]

I negotiated with Excel but they didn't budge much. It was a virtual stone that they happened to have in house at the time. I was aware that I could get it for slightly less through another vendor but paid the slight premium because they did the work up on the stone (which they pointed out influenced my decision and they were right) and had it in hand. Something to keep in mind....people always seem to state that vendors work on 'slim margins.' I happen to think while it may be true to some extent, it has become something that people mimic because they have heard it said so many times. How do people who make those statements really know the margins that others work on? Does your gut tell you that there is a factual basis for those statements? To truly know they would have to know what the vendor really paid- not what he/she told them or lead them to believe they paid. I have yet to meet the vendor who opened their books to me or was willing to show me their 'receipt.' I would venture to say that very few others have as well. Take your time, research, and negotiate. Happy hunting.

 

[yssie]

There is sometimes quite a bit of parroting on RT on various topics BAM, and I think most newer posters can see that. What may be more difficult to distinguish is parroting for the sake of parroting, and parroting because one recognises that the original idea is valid or makes a good point... and whilst ideally everyone would speak from personal experience/understanding, ultimately both "types" of commentary can be helpful - in affirmation or dissuasion!- to someone looking for assistance. Totally off-the-wall ideas or misstatements are usually subject to clarification or correction soon enough, and new ideas are explored, so in the end I think most potential buyers get the information they need, and most RT regulars stick around long enough to make up their own minds on various issues - or go to Research for more to chew on

 

[Gypsy]

You have to give something to get something. Some vendors will gi e you a break if you buy both the stone and the setting both from them. You can always ask what discounts are available and what you would have to do to qualify.

 

[oldminer]

There is no harm in attempting to negotiate an asking price, but when the price is really as low as it can get, you won't look too smart offering an amount which is truly impossible. If you really do the research first, then you are in a better position to offer an intelligent buying price you'd be willing to pay or you might just ask if the price offered is the best price for an immediate decision and immediate payment. In principle, there is no insult to negotiating, but when done poorly, impolitely or with vengeance, the vendor is a lot less likely to offer any movement even when it may have been possible otherwise. With the way diamonds are being sold for narrow margins, it makes more sense to shop very well and then to negotiate more strongly on the part where the profit lies, the mounting expenses. On a percentage basis, the mounting generally has more leeway.

 

[John P]

I negotiated with Excel but they didn't budge much. It was a virtual stone that they happened to have in house at the time. I was aware that I could get it for slightly less through another vendor but paid the slight premium because they did the work up on the stone (which they pointed out influenced my decision and they were right) and had it in hand. Something to keep in mind....people always seem to state that vendors work on 'slim margins.' I happen to think while it may be true to some extent, it has become something that people mimic because they have heard it said so many times. How do people who make those statements really know the margins that others work on? Does your gut tell you that there is a factual basis for those statements? To truly know they would have to know what the vendor really paid- not what he/she told them or lead them to believe they paid. I have yet to meet the vendor who opened their books to me or was willing to show me their 'receipt.' I would venture to say that very few others have as well. Take your time, research, and negotiate. Happy hunting.

This may or may not be the case.

The margins are indeed slim for diamonds with accurate grading and top craftsmanship which are sold to clients who have educated themselves on standards and competitive pricing. There is actually more profit in diamonds with soft grading, sold to people who believe that a greater discount = a greater "deal!"

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this story, or variations on it:

BuyerBilly is ready to pop the question. He decides $5,000 should do it and starts to shop. After replacing his eyeballs from the sticker-shock he got at Tiffany's he seeks out some well-known local jewelers to find a loose diamond. He bumps his budget up (grudgingly) to $6000. For that amount he is determined to get a "1ct...no-less-than-G...no-less-than-VS2...ideal... After all, these diamond thingys are marked up, like, 100% right? Surely I can get one of these guys to come down to what I can afford!"

Enter our two dealers; StandupStan and FriendlyFred.

StandupStan's store carries diamonds with GIA reports. He has a 1ct G VS2 EX (conforms to AGS Ideal too) priced at $8000. BuyerBilly spends considerable time chumming with Stan, hoping he can charm-up a deep-discount... After much dialogue Stan offers his "very best deal" and cuts the price to $7600... BuyerBilly thanks him and walks away, mumbling under his breath.

The next day Billy walks into FriendlyFred's store and describes his requirements. Fred brings out a 1ct "quote...G VS2 ideal...unquote" with a soft grading report (it would actually be Hish SIish VGish @ stricter labs). It is also priced at $8000 but marked down in red ink to $7700. Hmm. BuyerBilly cranks up the charm machine again, hoping his forced-discount-telepathy will have better luck today. And lo & behold it seems to work! During their banter Fred says he can do something and bumps it down. BuyerBilly keeps pushing a bit more...ok ok...Fred says...but I'll need to speak with the manager. He returns in several minutes with "I can't believe it...you must have caught him on a good day, Billy." The stone has been slashed all the way to $6500! Yeah baby! Ok, sure, it's slightly over-budget but Billy is relieved to have what he wanted within reach; especially since Tiffany's and StandupStan's were so stubbornly inflexible. And when BuyerBilly sees the "Appraisal" written by FriendlyFred's GG (who works there in the store) citing value on the diamond for insurance purposes at $15,000 he is sold sold sold. "What a deal!" "Thank you Fred!"

Here's what Billy didn't know:

Diamonds with soft lab reports can trade at a meaningful % under diamonds with identical "Cs" from strict labs.

StandupStan bought the GIA stone for $7000 wholesale. By marking it down to $7600 he would have made under 10%.
FriendlyFred bought the soft graded stone for $5000 wholesale. Even after "slashing it" to $6500 he made 30%.

And BuyerBilly walked away thinking Fred made less and Stan was the tight-fisted one. Now he'll send his friends to Fred. I hope they find Pricescope first.

I've always thought it ironic that sellers willing to compromise on quality, consumer protection and future value can cash-in more, in many cases, than sellers committed to educating and protecting their clients.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I negotiated with Excel but they didn't budge much. It was a virtual stone that they happened to have in house at the time. I was aware that I could get it for slightly less through another vendor but paid the slight premium because they did the work up on the stone (which they pointed out influenced my decision and they were right) and had it in hand. Something to keep in mind....people always seem to state that vendors work on 'slim margins.' I happen to think while it may be true to some extent, it has become something that people mimic because they have heard it said so many times. How do people who make those statements really know the margins that others work on? Does your gut tell you that there is a factual basis for those statements? To truly know they would have to know what the vendor really paid- not what he/she told them or lead them to believe they paid. I have yet to meet the vendor who opened their books to me or was willing to show me their 'receipt.' I would venture to say that very few others have as well. Take your time, research, and negotiate. Happy hunting.

just my guess...most online vendors are working on profit b/t 10-13%

 

[Gypsy]

My favorites are the "skip the middle man and go straight to the source' brick and mortar stores who will tell you, straight faced that their "in store" grading is "stricter than GIA" but will save the buyer a bundle because it is uncertified.

The only thing that is stricter is their margins. Nothing less than 30% will do!

And BAM, respectfully, my diamond vendor did indeed show me his invoice. It was pre-PS. And he told me upfront his margin was 20%. Did I get a beautiful stone? Yes. Did the brick and mortar have overhead? Yes. But they are now out of business. You know why? Because they couldn't compete with the lower margins of the online world.

 

[Karl_K]

This may or may not be the case.

The margins are indeed slim for diamonds with accurate grading and top craftsmanship which are sold to clients who have educated themselves on standards and competitive pricing. There is actually more profit in diamonds with soft grading, sold to people who believe that a greater discount = a greater "deal!"

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this story, or variations on it:

BuyerBilly is ready to pop the question. He decides $5,000 should do it and starts to shop. After replacing his eyeballs from the sticker-shock he got at Tiffany's he seeks out some well-known local jewelers to find a loose diamond. He bumps his budget up (grudgingly) to $6000. For that amount he is determined to get a "1ct...no-less-than-G...no-less-than-VS2...ideal... After all, these diamond thingys are marked up, like, 100% right? Surely I can get one of these guys to come down to what I can afford!"

Enter our two dealers; StandupStan and FriendlyFred.

StandupStan's store carries diamonds with GIA reports. He has a 1ct G VS2 EX (conforms to AGS Ideal too) priced at $8000. BuyerBilly spends considerable time chumming with Stan, hoping he can charm-up a deep-discount... After much dialogue Stan offers his "very best deal" and cuts the price to $7600... BuyerBilly thanks him and walks away, mumbling under his breath.

The next day Billy walks into FriendlyFred's store and describes his requirements. Fred brings out a 1ct "quote...G VS2 ideal...unquote" with a soft grading report (it would actually be Hish SIish VGish @ stricter labs). It is also priced at $8000 but marked down in red ink to $7700. Hmm. BuyerBilly cranks up the charm machine again, hoping his forced-discount-telepathy will have better luck today. And lo & behold it seems to work! During their banter Fred says he can do something and bumps it down. BuyerBilly keeps pushing a bit more...ok ok...Fred says...but I'll need to speak with the manager. He returns in several minutes with "I can't believe it...you must have caught him on a good day, Billy." The stone has been slashed all the way to $6500! Yeah baby! Ok, sure, it's slightly over-budget but Billy is relieved to have what he wanted within reach; especially since Tiffany's and StandupStan's were so stubbornly inflexible. And when BuyerBilly sees the "Appraisal" written by FriendlyFred's GG (who works there in the store) citing value on the diamond for insurance purposes at $15,000 he is sold sold sold. "What a deal!" "Thank you Fred!"

Here's what Billy didn't know:

Diamonds with soft lab reports can trade at a meaningful % under diamonds with identical "Cs" from strict labs.

StandupStan bought the GIA stone for $7000 wholesale. By marking it down to $7600 he would have made under 10%.
FriendlyFred bought the soft graded stone for $5000 wholesale. Even after "slashing it" to $6500 he made 30%.

And BuyerBilly walked away thinking Fred made less and Stan was the tight-fisted one. Now he'll send his friends to Fred. I hope they find Pricescope first.

I've always thought it ironic that sellers willing to compromise on quality, consumer protection and future value can cash-in more, in many cases, than sellers committed to educating and protecting their clients.

Well said John.

My opinion on the original topic is:
It doesnt hurt to ask but dont be insulted if the answer is no we can not move on the price.

 

[should i be here]

Would the markup be different on a very expensive stone vs a less expensive stone? 10% on a $50k stone vs 10% on a $2k stone is a big difference even though you've done the same thing - sold a rock.

 

[YoungPapa]

Would the markup be different on a very expensive stone vs a less expensive stone?

Generally speaking, yes. The more expensive the diamond, the lower the margin - at least for us.

 

[oldminer]

John P, You have told it like it is. All too often the scenario for success has more to do with the ability of some vendors to use soft grading and exaggerated appraisals, than with telling the truth in an open way. There is no way one can negotiate of the "value" of the apparent best value stone when each individual stone in the race may or may not enjoy full discosure of their actual grades.

This is why a consumer may wish to employ an expert, third party to check the veracity of the supposed grades of the likely candidate diamond before committing to it. Since an negotiation on price can only effectively be done one time, the consumer needs to be fully ready to immediately make the purchase when the negotiation has been discussed. Without knowing how good the diamond really is, a negotiation is not based on knowledge, but on guesswork.

Sellers who make their living by using "soft grading" on secondary lab reports and overly high pre-sale appraisal values know what they are doing and how successful that strategy has been. It has been VERY successful. The fact that it has worked so well does not make it an ethical practice I'd like to see the practice fail because more and more consumers have been better informed.

 

[John P]

John P, You have told it like it is. All too often the scenario for success has more to do with the ability of some vendors to use soft grading and exaggerated appraisals, than with telling the truth in an open way. There is no way one can negotiate of the "value" of the apparent best value stone when each individual stone in the race may or may not enjoy full discosure of their actual grades.

I see it regularly in the different US cities I call-on Dave. I train frontline salespeople and tell them the first rule of business when broaching even the basic Cs is to alert new shoppers about this sliding scale. That disclosure must be part of their fundamental discussion. Otherwise the buyer may never be comparing apples to apples.

 

[BAM54321]

Well said Mr. Pollard and Oldminer. I personally reviewed Oldminer's cut chart for fancies and got feedback from Mr. Pollard before purchasing a stone...and it worked out very well. I didn't truly give thought to the 'apples to apples' point that Mr. Pollard made and it is a critical point. Although I will remain a skeptic because it is my nature and logic is my friend, I repect what has been said by the respectable vendors who weighed in. Truth is, my first deal fell through after I pushed too hard and I basically got kicked out of the store...so what do I know?

 

[John P]

Well said Mr. Pollard and Oldminer. I personally reviewed Oldminer's cut chart for fancies and got feedback from Mr. Pollard before purchasing a stone...and it worked out very well. I didn't truly give thought to the 'apples to apples' point that Mr. Pollard made and it is a critical point. Although I will remain a skeptic because it is my nature and logic is my friend, I repect what has been said by the respectable vendors who weighed in. Truth is, my first deal fell through after I pushed too hard and I basically got kicked out of the store...so what do I know?

That deal wasn't to be. Don't look back. One of my best friends calls himself the world's most logical skeptic. Kind of a Mr. Spock / Kevin Spacey mashup.

Completely off-topic: I appreciate your style in writing. Just imagine if everyone would elevate their dialogues by sprinkling small but courteous details like "Mr." around in posts... So with that said, I was a HS teacher for a looong time, but in recent years only flight attendants call me Mr. Pollard when taking my meal order. So my wife catches me grinning like a fool earlier, asks "what's up?" and I have to confess that I can't stop "hearing" your paragraph in a 17-yr-old's voice. Plus I'm getting hungry for warm nuts and a small glass of red!