Need urgent advice -- pricing on pink diamond e-ring

[BBF]

Hi all,

I need urgent pricing advice!

I went to an upmarket B&M shop today to inspect a number of pink stones they''ve acquired for me. The lady showed me 3 stones, 0.13 - 0.16 - 0.18 carat.

The 0.18 stone cost the same as the 0.13 stone -- I took a closer look and found some inclusions (clearly visible under loupe). We set it aside.

I finally decided on the 0.13 stone. It was clear under the loupe, well cut (to my untrained eye), no visible inclusions, and had a beautiful sparkle and fire. I wanted it custom set so I had a chat with the resident jeweller and settled on a nice design with 18ct white gold. At the end I had 2 choices: 1) set the stone solitaire, 2) augment the solitaire with pink channel melee.

Here are the prices she gave me (including tax -- I live in Australia which has a 10% goods and sales tax):

0.13 carat natural pink round brilliant cut (including custom setting): 3700 US dollars
0.12 carat of 8 small natural pink diamonds for the melee: 900 US dollars

So if I go with just solitaire, $3700. With the melee, $4600.

The pink has a nice color, unmistakably pink, but not super intense. I''ve asked her to get me the exact color, but it''s probably a 4-5P (1P being the most intense). The smaller pinks match the color of the solitaire, and are also unmistakably pink.

I don''t think they have any certificates, although they''d probably get one if I ask. They''re a reputable shop and they did say that insurance valuation will be included.

The question: what do you think about the prices? Fair? Expensive but not highway robbery? A bargain?

Please help me! This is the perfect e-ring for my beloved and I''m more than willing to fork over the dollars, I just don''t want to find out later that I paid too much!

 

[belle]

hey bbf,
i''m sorry, i can''t answer your question on pink diamonds...i just have not priced them at all. it sounds like you liked the jeweler and that they were very accomodating. for me, those value added services account for quite a bit. all that really matters is that you feel like you are getting good service and what you pay for. i hope you do!

please post pics when it''s done.

 

[valeria101]

Not that you'd get a whole database of round pinks graded for color to compare with (especially not graded on the Argyle scale!).


But there's still some stuff online worth mention: e.g. GIA, FIPP, 18 pts, VS - $4500 ; 20pts, FP (GIA), VS, $2600 etc. There's more where these come from.

The idea of channel set accents sounds lively - just enough to make the whole piece look as sophisticated at first sight as it is. Are these still tension or tension-like settings?

 

[BBF]

Belle, I''m in full agreement with you. I appreciate the ''full service'' aspect and I''m willing to pay the premium for that ... I just want to know if it''s a $100 premium or a $1000 premium

Valeria101, thank you very much for the price points -- at least it''s telling me that the price is not highway robbery. As you said there''s scant pricing info on Argyle pinks.

I may ask the jeweller to provide a cert. Do you think that it''s reasonable to ask for a cert at this price point?

I''m going to spend the $$$, there''s no doubt on that. This $$$ is coming from my personal budget though, buying this ring means that I won''t be upgrading my comp for a year

So I want to make damn sure that I''m getting the most for my $$$!

 

[BBF]

Whoops forgot --

Belle I will definitely show off, er, I mean POST, the ring pics when done

Valeria101, it will be a semi-tension ring (how did you guess?). Design pic attached. The final result will of course have the melee on the shoulders. It will also sit a little lower and narrower around the centre since the main stone is so small.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/10/2006 2:42:48 PM
Author: BBF
buying this ring means that I won''t be upgrading my comp for a year

So I want to make damn sure that I''m getting the most for my $$$!

You MEN! We love ya ... but this is CLASSIC. She''ll be wearing it FOREVER and you won''t be upgrading your computer FOR A YEAR. Hmmmm.

Regardless, you seem like you''re picking out something special & wonderful for her and that''s what COUNTS!!

I saw a 1ct oval pink & did a spit take at the price. WOW. Pink is $$$.

Congrats on you upcoming engagment, pls. don''t take my fun w/you as criticism. It''s not everyday we see "GUY THINK" so clearly displayed!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/10/2006 2:51:26 PM
Author: BBF


Valeria101, it will be a semi-tension ring...

Yay! Someone has posted that very setting here with a small pink diamond. That was a pinkie ring, I suppose... but that''s relative size-wise.

It was done by Icestore and is now on their website: HERE


For what a random opinion matters, I would go for accent diamonds - either channel of not. Colorless ones would look great too (a contrast for the pink).



About the tension setting - haven''t you posted before about it? It was an all round Kretchmer or Niessing setting... Few of those have accent stones (front below), but the channel-set accents should work great on your ring.

 

[Rod]

I just had a ring designed almost identically to the ring you have shown and had it custom made. I''m thrilled with the results. Check out my thread entitled "Three More Days" by Rod to see pictures.

 

[BBF]

Decodelighter -- dang, I forgot to turn on my GuyThink filter

Valeria101 and Rod -- yes I''ve posted a few days ago asking for design thoughts. Now that I have a design I need pricing info!

What do you guys think about the price anyway? It doesn''t have to be exact ... just asking for opinions/guesses/thoughts!

 

[valeria101]

It sounds like you found a favorite alternative to the original tension idea... although the diamond is not suspended as it would be in a tension ring.

I just happened to remember these - not tension (there is some element connecting the two parts of the ring underneath the stone - just not as obvious). 'Thought I'd mention.

About the price... I would agree with you: it isn't little, but no 'robbery' either. I don't know exactly what you were seeing though - and would expect very nice pink (not 'barely there - needs a white background to be seen') for the size and money.

If given the choice, I might have preffered less pedigree (ok, those are not graded - and even if small the cost warrants that), more color and more diamond (not large - maybe 30 pts or so). There are lots of fine print tings about pink diamonds - such as the nice premium on 'purplish pink' versus 'pink' and the 'brownish pink' or 'orangy-pink' relative bargains.
It may sound like allot of 'theory' about 15pts or less, but those happen to cost a bit.


I wanted to mention THESE - the source is pretty well known for high prices, but good ref nevertheless.


Speaking of 'bargain pink' with modifiers... you may guess I like the idea, but that is probably personal. And the things definitely need to be seen because the guarantee for 'pink' look is no longer on paper. Sometimes the GIA reports reads like a long mantra: say 'fancy deep brownish orangy pink' - the thing may look brown, or too dark or a beautiful distinct reddish pink and would be about 5k/ct for 30 pts, not 30k/ct. I don't get to see many diamonds - just few compared to anyone in the trade, but did come across those grades - this is why I mentioned that type of color and no other weird ones. The examples I am trying to describe were 'fancy brownish pink' (IGI) and that (GIA). The types of lab report do count but can't comment of what to expect on average from either: the fact is that the IGI bit look distinctly brown like mahogany and the other like a slice through a ripen cherry.

It isn't hard to imagine that many folk on this forum know allot more about these and have seen allot more.
You may want to search the 'Color Gem' forum for some ref (David Kodner's and for a colored diamond 'get together').

 

[BBF]

Valeria101,

Thank you for that wealth of info. I looked over the threads since I didn''t find them when I searched for "pink diamond" on pricescope.

My summary of what you are saying is that pink diamonds are mostly graded/priced on the color. Purple pink (a.k.a. Argyle PP) are the highest, followed by Argyle P, then BP for brown pink.

Also -- there''s no set pink pricing so it''s a jungle out there. Caveat emptor, I guess.

I saw some brown pinks and I agree that they look quite pink to my untrained eye. Actually I know that my beloved prefers a lighter shade of pink, so a mega expensive 1PP wouldn''t appeal to her anyway.

I''ll probably view the stones again with your comments in mind.

 

[BBF]

Mm, my head is swimming with options.

I've decided that to shop around for better deals and I found a pair of 0.13 carat 5P from a reputable B&M Argyle stockist/jeweller. The manager agreed to split the pair and sell me one for $2900. They're also getting me other paler stones for me to look at. Still no cert for this one (other than their own cert/valuation doco) but they will supply Argyle lot number.

The stones are eye clean. I think they have slightly less brilliance that the one I saw at the other shop, but I can't be sure. And I found out that the first stone was a 5P after all. So for $1000 less I'm getting the same color grade, the same carat, and maybe a bit less brilliance.

I thought I was getting somewhere -- and I saw next door there was a brand new upmarket B&M opening up. I walked in and saw the diplomas and certs on the wall: both owners (husband and wife) were GIA graduates. This was a bit unusual since this was in Australia, so I looked around. Hearts and arrows diamonds and GIA certed diamonds. One thing was for sure -- these people were pitching to the diamond enthusiast crowd.

I asked for pink diamonds and the husband showed me a pair of 0.055 carats. Argyle color 5P, eye clean, decent brilliance for the size. No cert, but he'll of course provide valuation and a report. Price: $375 each.

I was dizzy.

Earlier in my travels yet another reputable jeweller quoted me $1450 for a similar stone. How could the price differ so much? It then hit me that this shop is new and they may be cost-cutting to get new customers.

Anyway I put in a 10% deposit on one stone and said that I will be back the next day to dicuss ring settings. Now I'm thinking that I may buy the other pink plus a sparkly, pricescope-worthy 0.5 carat from the same shop, then go with a more traditional setting of a centre white flanked by the two pinks.

Unless that shop can source me a bigger pink at bargain price! Then my head will stop swimming and I will have my perfect e-ring.

Stay tuned for more pink adventures.

 

[Rod]

Did you forget a digit, or did you really type $375 per stone. That''s a substantial difference. Are you sure the stone is natural, or was it treated? Personally, I think treated stones can be quite beautiful but you should be sure you know what you''re getting. I''m guessing you dropped a digit......

 

[BBF]

Gawd, I''m a doofus. I did drop a digit, but not from the price.

The stone was a 0.055 not 0.55 as I reported. I corrected this in the original post.

A jeweller quoted me a 0.05 carat 5P natural pink for $1450. This B&M shop sold me the same thing, 0.055 carat, for $375.

Looks natural to me, the color is that familiar Argyle blush pink.

 

[jszweda]

That doesn''t sound like a bad price for that pink diamond. I also think that particular mine is either shutdown or close to being shut down as they are near the bottom of the cone for the Argo mine in Australia. If that is a natural pink diamond like you describe, that''s not an expense but an investment. The prices of those things keep skyrocketing, and I have seen 40 pointers go for rediculous money.

 

[Rod]

Sounds unbeleivable, but I''m not an expert on the pricing of natural colored diamonds. For the size of the stones, that''s probably a really good deal. And your idea of a center white 1/2 carat diamond flanked by the two pink diamonds would probably be absolutely stunning!

Good Luck

 

[BBF]

I''d like to get this stone certed/appraised/confirmed -- just wondering if the color is natural or treated or enhanced.

I rang DCLA (the Australian independent lab cert) and they say that it wouldn''t be worth it consider the size and price of the stone. Apparent to certify color they need to use the special machine and it will cost me $500 per stone.

Any ideas on a cheaper way to do this? Considering that the stone itself is only $375. I''m not doing this for value purposes, this is just for personal curiosity.

I don''t like feeling that I may have been ripped off ...

 

[jszweda]

I wonder about the cost to determine that. I think that price sounds rediculously high to be honest. As far as I know of, there is no way to artificially create that color for a diamond. If you irradiate these things, they turn either yellow, or blue. If you create that pink color, as far as I know of, it would have to be a created stone. There are ways to tell if a diamond is natural or not.

Secondly, you would think someone there would be able to stick that thing under a microscope and confirm its origin as there is only 1 place where those things occur at. I would look for another lab to be honest with you. To tell if a diamond has been enhanced, there are ways to tell that immediately. As far as the color being natural, I have never heard anyone who could treat a natural diamond to get it to turn pink.

As far as the value, you should see what those things go for here in the US. Most of the ones you see here are accent stones, and they are in some upscale places. For a solitaire, it''s not cheap considering, but for what it is, that''s a deal. Even if you go with a 1/2 carat solitare and go with the 2 smaller pink diamonds, it would make a very unique past/present/future type design that would be very elegant.

I say go for it.

 

[indecisive]

I have found quite a few websites that say you can irradiate a real diamond to get a pink diamond including this from a jewelry website

True Facts about Irradiated Diamonds:
1. The color will not fade; it penetrates the entire diamond
2. Irradiated Diamonds are not lab created, they are natural and real diamonds
3. Although Irradiated Diamonds have color, they still have the same refractive index, because they are natural
4. Irradiated Diamonds don''t become radioactive
5. Irradiated Diamonds may come in Blue Green, Canary Yellow, or even Pink etc...

 

[jszweda]

I''ve never heard of an irradiated diamond turning pink to be honest. It''s the first I''ve heard of that. Regardless, you could test for that readily.

Do you have a link that says you can irradiate it for pink? I am curious for my own knowledge. The canary yellow, blue/green I can believe as I have seen diamonds irradiated in that color. I''ve just never heard of it happening in pink.

 

[indecisive]

That particular quote was from http://store.littmanjewelers.com/escalate/store/DisplayVisitor?pls=littmanjewelers&page=CON_IrradiatedDiamonds&loginPage=CON_IrradiatedDiamonds
but there are many other pages on irradiated pink diamonds, one was from a gemological laboratory. Just do a google search. I also found out that you can test for a irradiated diamond with a negative. Is this true?
"To change the colour they are subjected to radiation, if you would like to check if a stone has been irradiated it is quite simple, you do not need any special equipment just fine an old negative and put the diamond on a black section, leave it there for a short time 2 to 60 seconds say then move the diamond if there is a white mark where the diamond was it has been irradiated. Make sure the diamond is in contact with the film. "
http://www.jf-k.com/shop/pink_diamonds.php

 

[jszweda]

Scratch that part about sending me a link. I did find some myself, but like I said it was news to me.

I did find an article about a project using spectroscopy to determine natural vs. irradiated colored diamonds though. If you look at page 4 of the PDF, it has some good visuals displaying the graphs.

http://www.icam2004.org/upload/pap0361.pdf#search="irradiated%20spectroscopy%20colored%20diamonds"

I think $500 to test though is rediculous. I saw a price on a spectroscope earlier today for something like $3000 US (just stumbled across by accident).

Keep in mind though, if these stones are in Australia, it''s not too difficult to get them from the Argyle mine or someone who has dealt with them. They may be naturally hot pink, but I think $500 to test the color is rediculous.

If they are in fact naturally pink, and they''re smaller stones (i.e. 16-18 points), and they are clean, they could have come from an older batch of material. I know for a time you could get certain stuff that came from the Argyle mine for a lot less than anywhere else only because DeBeers didn''t have mining rights to it. Then again, that didn''t last for long.

HTH

 

[jszweda]

Thanks for the link. Actually my father use to work for Litmans many thousands of years ago. LOL.

The film trick is intersting though. See if that''s $500 bucks to determine irradiation. I remember reading something else somewhere that said if you masked part of an irradiated stone, and left it sunlight or something for a certain amount of time, you could see a difference in the unmasked portion and tell that way. I don''t remember all the particulars, and I don''t know if it applies to diamonds or not, or if it works.

I will remember this though, and I do appreciate it.

 

[BBF]

I had another look and bought the second 0.055 carat pink. Now I have a pair

Only a few months ago I saw a TV doco talking about new style created diamonds (able to produce colored diamonds too) and how only one machine in one lab in Australia (DCLA) is able to spot it. This may be what the DCLA guy was talking about. DCLA is a pretty reputable place in Australia, so I''m guessing the guy meant ''$500 to confirm, to the highest degree that science can, that your pink diamond is a naturally occuring pink diamond.''

So -- maybe with simple tests like the film negative test (very neat btw, thanks for the linkage jszweda) I can find with 90% certainty that the stone is natural.

DCLA can do a normal cert for the stone for $50 each so I may opt for that.

I commented to the jeweller that it was a great price for pinks and he said that it was an old stock, bought at lower price that it is now. I did hear that Argyle pinks used to be cheaper ... is this true?

I''ve asked him to source me a selection of pinks (coz I''m still very attached to the idea a centre pink stone) so we''ll see if I get a similarly good price. Wishful thinking ... I think the pair I got was a pricing anomaly.

Anyway I''m reasonably relaxed now coz I know if I can''t source pinks at a good price for the original idea, I can still do a nice ring with the pair and a 1/2 carat solitaire.

I''ll keep this post updated with my pink-hunting adventures (and when it''s finally done ... the ring).

 

[jszweda]

I am glad you found the link helpful.

As far as the old Argyle prices, they used to be a lot cheaper than they are now. As time has passed, they have been mined out, and the demand has gone up considerably. I have heard as of last month, the mine was being considered for permanent shut down because there was so little production going on. I don''t know how true that is, but I know they are or were getting close to the bottom of the cone.

If your jeweler bought some older material, he can give you a lot better of a deal. Just to give you an idea as to what the US market is charging, let me use a 40 point pink for reference. For a fuscia colored Argyle mine diamond, VS clarity, if you could find it, and you were lucky, $50 grand. The price on those things goes up exponentialy as the carat weight goes up. It''s rediculous.

Typically what you will find in the US if you''re lucky are some accent stones in some high end designer pieces. A carat of pinks will list higher in retail than the whites. A carat of good accent diamonds now is something like $3000-$4000 a carat. If they are natural pinks, I''d say double that easily. However, if you bought those pinks from the Argyle mine a few years ago, you got a deal. If you can find a regualr diamond from that mine, it''s going to cost you less than if you got it from DeBeers.

Not to rag on DeBeers, but they used to have mining rights to that deposit some years ago. They lost them some how or another. So then, they can''t control the price on whatever comes from that mine. Had that not been the case, your jeweler might have had a very hard time getting a reasonable price on the same exact material. So if you''re jeweler is reputable, and he got those stones as old stock, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/11/2006 3:19:40 PM
Author: BBF


A jeweller quoted me a 0.05 carat 5P natural pink for $1450. This B&M shop sold me the same thing, 0.055 carat, for $375.

$1450!? That''s a bit. It sounds like you were at the ringt time and place with the shop opening. Who knows...

Trated pinks would be quite obviously vivid (both those color treated and the syntetics). I am not aware if any such stones are light senzitive (re. the earlier mention up this thread). It culd be that they used to be. Just never heard of it until now.

White with pink sides sounds great, btw.

You may find THIS interesting and there are examples with pink sides and with blue... if the shop didn''t happen to have any on location.