Need some work advice

[Ionysis]

Hi all, I know this isn’t jewellery related but I get the impression there are some wise heads on here and perhaps even some ladies who have climbed the career ladder and who might be able to give me some advice or insight.

I’m in my mid 40s and have been working in finance my whole career. It’s not the easiest field for a woman to succeed in and I’ve felt many time that I’ve had to make sure I double down, work longer, harder and sometimes just plain shout louder to scramble up the career ladder. In 24 years, I’ve never had a female boss, never had a woman in a c-suite role and never had a role model or mentor to emulate.

I’m now fairly senior - I report to the guy who reports to the CEO. And I manage 350 staff - the biggest team in my Group. But it seems you’re never so senior that your male colleagues egos must be put before getting the job done…

For most of my career I was client facing closing deals. I now head the risk and support function so all my interactions are with internal stakeholders across the company not clients. I’m very driven and goal oriented. I’m passionate about making progressive change, improving the way we work to become more efficient, maximising productivity, cutting out illogical process and pushing for policy changes to make the bank more profitable. That often means I call attention to inefficiency, get very vocal about delays, ask difficult questions and generally make a PITA of myself.

I’m British in a Middle Eastern company and many of my peers are from India, Pakistan, various Arabic countries and they are almost all male. They don’t like being challenged by a western woman. My sense of humour is also British. I’m sarcastic, crack jokes to lighten the mood, use a tone of voice which many of these senior men classify as “mocking” - it wouldn’t be seen so in the west but they are egocentric and “face” matters here. If I said the same things being a man people would tolerate it. But they don’t like it from me. To be fair I’m only challenging in this way to my peers or even seniors, I’m extremely kind and careful in dealing with our junior staff as I see it is my role to support them, help them and have their back.

I’ve spent so many years smiling politely and kow towing to, often mediocre, middle aged male egomaniacs to get where I am now and I finally thought I could stop tiptoeing around and cut that crap. Apparently not.

I’m torn on what to do. I honestly don’t like the idea that I’m upsetting my colleagues, and I would never try to offend anyone on purpose, but I also don’t want to completely nullify my personality, or take forever to get things done while I massage peoples egos. Is there a way I can make omlette WITHOUT breaking those eggs? Should I compromise and tow the line, make sure I smile sweetly and try never to upset people. Or should I just say “tough shit, I’m good at my job and I get results, and that’s because I’m not afraid to speak out”.

It doesn’t help that I have ADHD I guess. It means I juggle multiple balls extremely well and can skip between projects and workstreams extremely quickly, but I’m also impulsive and run my mouth when perhaps I should keep it shut. Should I perhaps take meds for my ADHD? It would probably make me less assertive but then would I lose my passion and my edge?

I wish I had a more senior female colleague to guide me but there isn’t one. Perhaps some career counselling?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Congratulations on your career so far
You have worked hard to get where you are
I worked in a male dominated field for most of my life
sisters up the corporate latter certainly did each other no favours in my experience
if i could just very gently and with the upmost respect say
When finally got a woman complex mamager
She was English
I really hated her sarcasm
It was actually quite hurtful
Now im not an Asian or middle eastern male but that sarcasm really rubbed me up the wrong way
I watch your tv, i like the dry humour- i don't see that sarcasm in what i watch

Perhaps be mindful to dial the scarcasm back until they know you better
Just a very gentle suggestion from a former lowlist of lowest minon from the largest conglomerate in the southern hemisphere (westfarmers)

Good luck with your career

 

[dk168]

Good managerial skills can be learnt from any good mentors regardless of their sex, IMHO.

DK

 

[Ally T]

Firstly, congratulations on what you have achieved! You should be so proud of yourself - you are smashing it!

If I were you (and I'm not - this is only my 2 pence) I definitely wouldn't take meds for your ADHD if you have progressed so well without. It's one of the reasons you are successful, so don't be ashamed of it.

Many years ago I found myself in a similar position, though different industry, when I landed a job as an Operations Director for an engineering company over in New Zealand. I was 27 at the time & had progressed well here in the UK. When I arrived, I was pretty much hated immediately. I was female, English & young, leading a team of extremely manly, sexist male engineers. They sniggered, they sneered they wolf whistled - it was pretty gross. They called me She Who Must Be Obeyed. After a few frustrating months of sorting out failing systems & procedures (I was brought in to help turn the company around) I rolled up my sleeves, got my overalls & booked my diary out so that I could accompany each & every engineer over the next 2 months in the field. Went down like a lead balloon But I made it my business to learn everything they knew, get my hands literally dirty & get to know each guy individually, away from the banter of the office & workshops. I had to prove i wasn't just "a Pom with a pretty face".

Six months into that job I had more respect than I had ever had before I the workplace. They understood my sense of humour, they realised I was serious about my job & serious about saving their arses from closure. Going forwards we had great relationships & years later when I returned to the UK, they threw me the biggest party & bought me some beautiful gifts. We still keep in touch & the company is still going strong.

So although a completely different situation to yours, my point is that I didn't give up. Over my dead body would I throw in the towel & walk away because they didn't like me & I didn't fit in. I made it my business to get to know them & fit in.

Please don't throw away everything you've worked for SO very hard. You've come this far - you can carry on. Is it possible to get to know them more as people rather than colleagues, worm your way into their friendships, find things you might have in common with them & if there aren't any, perhaps take up something knew to create a common interest?

Good luck & remember you are worth every penny you earn.

 

[Ionysis]

I’ve worked for the company for ten years so people know me pretty well! Also the issue isn’t with my team - my line manager index score is top decile.

But your point is well taken.

Maybe sarcasm is the wrong word.

An example. I was in a meeting Friday and the consultants we are employing showed a template for a one page project summary for us to make “go / No go” decisions on. There were boxes for stuff like “IT assessment” and “competition assessment”. The space to write in was, I’m not joking, a box an inch square.

Now what I SHOULD have said was “perhaps we need a larger space to allow an adequate summary to be presented”. What I actually said was “When you brief the team, you might want to tell them to use font size 2 so they can squeeze everything required into those boxes!”The German consultant was offended.

 

[Ionysis]

Good managerial skills can be learnt from any good mentors regardless of their sex, IMHO.

DK

No problem with managerial skills. The people I struggle with upsetting are other Group Heads.

I would be very happy to get feedback from anyone who could provide useful insight. And my own (French male) boss is excellent.

The reason I say it would be helpful to me if I knew any other person in my shoes is because working as a white woman in a conservative Middle Eastern bank is a fairly unique challenge. Bit because I’m some radical feminist or sexist.

It’s why minority or protected status workers in the west tend to have people from their own backgrounds to provide support and advice. The experience of an African American woman who worked her way up from the ground in Wall Street would be pretty different to a white guy from Harvard. And it’s helpful to speak to others who have already transversed the same territory you are.

 

[Ally T]

No problem with managerial skills. The people I struggle with upsetting are other Group Heads.

I would be very happy to get feedback from anyone who could provide useful insight. And my own (French male) boss is excellent.

The reason I say it would be helpful to me if I knew any other person in my shoes is because working as a white woman in a conservative Middle Eastern bank is a fairly unique challenge. Bit because I’m some radical feminist or sexist.

It’s why minority or protected status workers in the west tend to have people from their own backgrounds to provide support and advice. The experience of an African American woman who worked her way up from the ground in Wall Street would be pretty different to a white guy from Harvard. And it’s helpful to speak to others who have already transversed the same territory you are.

Sounds like a really tough situation to be in. I hope you can find help & guidance from other women who have worked in the same environment. Also, I'm a gob-shite & would definitely have told them to make the boxes bigger......!

 

[dk168]

Can't help, sorry.

I am a first generation immigrant, a Chinese from colonial Hong Kong who came to study in UK in my early teens, liked it so much I decided to call it my home the moment I stepped off the plane.

Can't remember any struggle while working up the corporate fruit tree, only left due to personal circumstances.

Never experienced any issues with bullying while I was at school, uni and work, as peeps around knew I would not tolerate it.

Never have to kowtow to anyone in all my working life.

Now working as an independent consultant/contractor in the pharmaceutical industry and do not have to put up with the corporate BS.

Good luck.

DK

 

[icy_jade]

many of my peers are from India, Pakistan, various Arabic countries and they are almost all male. They don’t like being challenged by a western woman

Ah, someone in my bank calls it the “Indian boys club”. It’s hard. I face the same issue myself with most of my peers and even my boss being from South Asia. I’m female and Chinese (and married with kids) so I literally feel like a D&I mascot at times.

Your French boss would be an excellent ally and someone to check in with. Mentors don’t have to be females. Male advocates can be great too. If there is a D&I group in your bank or even outside, it could be a good place to get some advice too.

My sense of humour is also British. I’m sarcastic, crack jokes to lighten the mood, use a tone of voice which many of these senior men classify as “mocking” - it wouldn’t be seen so in the west but they are egocentric and “face” matters here. If I said the same things being a man people would tolerate it. But they don’t like it from me.

This could be a problem, female or not. The humour just maybe doesn’t translate well outside of UK. As you mentioned, the German consultant was offended too so it’s not just an Asian male thing. I recall seeing a meme where a Brit calling someone an offensive swear word was supposed to be a sign of affection/closeness and honestly it just doesn’t translate well in Asia.

I’ll advise saying what you mean without any room for potential offence. It can be done and will save a lot of grief. Not about male/female or kowtowing, just navigating work culture and being mindful of cultural norms. It won’t be that easy to change and probably takes some practice but I do think it will help. Look at it from the other side, it can really sound quite offensive even if you don’t mean it ykwim? It’s often not about what you mean but how the message is communicated and received.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I’ve worked for the company for ten years so people know me pretty well! Also the issue isn’t with my team - my line manager index score is top decile.

But your point is well taken.

Maybe sarcasm is the wrong word.

An example. I was in a meeting Friday and the consultants we are employing showed a template for a one page project summary for us to make “go / No go” decisions on. There were boxes for stuff like “IT assessment” and “competition assessment”. The space to write in was, I’m not joking, a box an inch square.

Now what I SHOULD have said was “perhaps we need a larger space to allow an adequate summary to be presented”. What I actually said was “When you brief the team, you might want to tell them to use font size 2 so they can squeeze everything required into those boxes!”The German consultant was offended.

That was funny
Saddly true
but funny
I don't want to offend any Germans
But they don't seem to be known by their sence of humour

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

The most offensive thing i ever heard a non- NZer say (and im not shearing the rationality ) was
im here to show you kiwis how to work

People get defensive very eaiserly even over the most innocent of misunderstandings or good intentions especially relating to change

A person of another culture or nationality already is different and now they want to change us ?

Its a mine field out there

 

[Tartansparkles]

I lead a start-up in a male dominated field, so I can appreciate some of your position. I have benefited from male allies - it sounds like your current boss could assist you there. I also looked for female mentors - I scanned my industry (in person and on LinkedIn) for females who were senior to me and who I thought I could learn from (I was specific about what I wanted to learn and why I was approaching them). I then asked those ladies to mentor me and on every occasion, they said yes. I agree we can have male and female mentors, but since I was specifically trying to address the difficulty of being a female in a leadership role, I looked to other women in a similar position.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Lonysis, first of all, congratulations on your accomplishment! Let me take a moment to celebrate the hard won success you have achieved! As a fellow female in the financial industry (I'm the compliance officer for a US private equity firm) I think it's amazing what you've done and the position you're in.

Your comment on "sarcasm" resonates with me; just last week my boss said something and I replied in my usual way. He laughed and said, "So snarky!" It sounds like you and I might have similar styles. I'm fortunate though as my boss seems to accept--even appreciate!--it. That being said, I'm not like that with EVERYONE. The phrase "pick your audience" applies (for me) in deciding how to interact with different people in my firm, as they are all very different people--and personalities. It's hard though, and I most certainly do get that, to temper one's natural tendencies, especially in off the cuff moments. I've had to learn that lesson many MANY times over the years.

I wonder if you can try some small steps? For instance, using the "2 point font" example, I think you went into that knowing the response would be negative. If you were in a similar situation going forward, could you bring yourself to do it differently? Maybe give the same chart with the same small box, but make a joke and offer a second page "in case anyone needs more room"? I KNOW it's hard. Believe me, I DO. But if you try a small thing and it yields positive results it could encourage you to try it again/more... ?

Another issue is cross-cultural humor. I'm fortunate in that my colleagues are generally American and "get" my humor, but if I were in a situation where that might not be the case I'd have to take a step back and ask myself if something was a good idea before I said it. Again, I know this is HARD. Especially in the moment. Conversation flows FAST and your brain obviously goes VERY fast so it's hard to catch your tongue.

As for mentors... I honestly can't say I've been fortunate enough to have one, but the people who have come closest to the role for me have been men. Men DO have a different perspective than women because they haven't had to climb the ladder with the same challenges. Is there any sort of woman oriented group you can seek out? Like Women In Finance, or something? (Obviously I'm making that up for the purpose of illustration, but you get the point.) Or even a woman's group that isn't in your industry but is female oriented? You may not get a lot of actual guidance or advice on your particular situation, but it could be helpful just to be in the presence of a group of success full women. Kind of like "support by osmosis," ha ha.

I don't know if any of this is helpful to you (probably not, ha ha!) but we are here for you!

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I’ve worked for the company for ten years so people know me pretty well! Also the issue isn’t with my team - my line manager index score is top decile.

But your point is well taken.

Maybe sarcasm is the wrong word.

An example. I was in a meeting Friday and the consultants we are employing showed a template for a one page project summary for us to make “go / No go” decisions on. There were boxes for stuff like “IT assessment” and “competition assessment”. The space to write in was, I’m not joking, a box an inch square.

Now what I SHOULD have said was “perhaps we need a larger space to allow an adequate summary to be presented”. What I actually said was “When you brief the team, you might want to tell them to use font size 2 so they can squeeze everything required into those boxes!”The German consultant was offended.

Oh man. I'm German and I loled.... Sorry that guy was so uptight!
Maybe you should work in France. My DH cracks jokes (and his female coworkers, too) where I regularly tell him they'd cost the company a LOT of money were they in the US. Sometimes imploring him to please please don't do it in an international meeting. He and his French peers think it sucks all the fun out of life ...

This is just to illustrate that some cultural differences cannot easily be changed. Maybe there's a financial firm with a different corporate culture ? Would you be willing to take an equivalent or better job in the UK or the US? Mind you, I'm not telling you to "throw away" your very hard earned career. But you've done a very good job identifying the factors that are holding you back. You've also very well assessed your own strengths and weaknesses.

When I read what you write it comes down to the old (but nonetheless true!) : Change what you cannot accept, accept what you cannot change.

@Dee*Jay and @icy_jade have given great advice for the short to mid term. Like @Ally T I personally wouldn't try to completely zonk out my personality, much less so by medication.

For the long term I'd try to evaluate which point exactly falls into the acceptable category and which in the unacceptable category. Then try to change/accept accordingly.
For the mentoring: I'm sure there's an organisation. They'd be delighted to have you onboard, too. @Tartansparkles ' approach is great as well

 

[Ionysis]

THANK YOU so much for all your considered advice. It really does help. And it’s nice to know I’m not the only one who faces challenges.

I’m the sole earner in my family and support my husband and kids and my widowed mum back home. My husband has long term mental health problems and hasn’t worked for a decade. Sometimes it all feels very, very hard. I have a lot of “mum guilt” for working so much so don’t feel like I’m really doing everything I could do as a parent. My job is something I thought I was really doing OK at so it’s really upsetting to know I’m cocking things up there too.

I honestly don’t want people to see me as snarky or offensive. I try to bring humour to work because it helps me cope with the stress but if it’s causing more issues than it fixes I need to approach things a different way. I tend to jump into everything 100% and pursue goals at pace. Then when I have a minute to breathe I overthink and re-play every conversation thinking how I could have done it differently. I haven’t slept all weekend thinking about my boss’s comments. And I really want to try to do better. I don’t want to let him down because he has helped me a lot and relies on me to deliver / implement his strategic vision. If I can’t do that effectively I’m not going to be of any value to him. So I need to fix this.

There is some awesome advice here and I will definitely take it on board. You guys are so awesome.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I honestly don’t want people to see me as snarky or offensive. I try to bring humour to work because it helps me cope with the stress but if it’s causing more issues than it fixes I need to approach things a different way. I tend to jump into everything 100% and pursue goals at pace. Then when I have a minute to breathe I overthink and re-play every conversation thinking how I could have done it differently. I haven’t slept all weekend thinking about my boss’s comments. And I really want to try to do better. I don’t want to let him down because he has helped me a lot and relies on me to deliver / implement his strategic vision. If I can’t do that effectively I’m not going to be of any value to him. So I need to fix this.

I think this is a very important point. Do you have the type of relationship with your boss where you can have a really frank conversation? Maybe be honest about how you've reflected and wanted him to know that you are (more) aware and will try to be better about tailoring your behavior to your audience? I think this would be quite a good thing on your part and would let him know you are committed not only to your job but to contributing to a positive environment. That being said, these types of conversation can be awkward, however you could work that point into the discussion. I.e., "I have spent the weekend reflecting and want you to know... X, Y, Z. I also realize this is an awkward conversation and appreciate that I can have this discussion with your." It kind of "diffuses" the awkwardness a little once it's been admitted to.

 

[icy_jade]

I’m the sole earner in my family and support my husband and kids and my widowed mum back home. My husband has long term mental health problems and hasn’t worked for a decade. Sometimes it all feels very, very hard. I have a lot of “mum guilt” for working so much so don’t feel like I’m really doing everything I could do as a parent. My job is something I thought I was really doing OK at so it’s really upsetting to know I’m cocking things up there too.

I honestly don’t want people to see me as snarky or offensive. I try to bring humour to work because it helps me cope with the stress but if it’s causing more issues than it fixes I need to approach things a different way. I tend to jump into everything 100% and pursue goals at pace. Then when I have a minute to breathe I overthink and re-play every conversation thinking how I could have done it differently. I haven’t slept all weekend thinking about my boss’s comments. And I really want to try to do better. I don’t want to let him down because he has helped me a lot and relies on me to deliver / implement his strategic vision. If I can’t do that effectively I’m not going to be of any value to him. So I need to fix this.

It sounds very very hard. Wish I can bring u out for a drink. Or let’s be honest we probably feel too much mum guilt for dinner so probably weekday lunch? Lol.

1. Forget the mum guilt
It strikes nearly all the female colleagues I know and honestly they probably do more at home than their husbands yet feel that guilt. Why? It took me a while to process mum guilt but after I realised that men don’t feel dad guilt, then why should we? You are probably doing the best you can under the circumstances so don’t beat yourself up! And it makes u even more unhappy so don’t, or at least that’s how I cope with mum guilt. Understanding what it is, what drives it, knowing that men don’t feel it and telling myself not to feel the same. Cos it’s a waste of time and just takes too much energy.

2. Don’t be so hard on yourself
Easier said than done. I do the same too, replay and beat myself up even knowing that it makes no difference. But again it’s a very female thing. Hard to fight against but we must else you feel a bit batty and beating yourself up really isn’t of any help anyway so don’t.

You have come so far and probably is doing a great job else you wouldn’t have achieved what you have. Just a few tweaks.

 

[Lookinagain]

I am in a position in my company at about the same level as you (my boss reports to the CEO) and it sounds like we are a bit similar in that I am very direct and don't mince words. When asked a question, I give my honest answer. It was never an issue with the other folks at my level or prior bosses, but when I got a new boss a few years ago, he didn't appreciate my directness nor my honesty. He came from a company with a different company culture where many were just "yes men". Anyway, I've learned a few things. I temper my words. What I deemed as direct and honest, he deemed as a challenge. I also try to remember that, although unfortunate, a woman can say something that comes off as aggressive, where if a man says it it is viewed as strong or assertive. So although I haven't changed my personality, I do try to think before I speak a bit more and maybe soften my comments while still getting the same substance across.
I don't know if you feel you can take the advice of @Ally T and get to know these co-workers better on a personal level. If you can, it might help, but I understand that may be difficult in your situation.
I can't relate to your issues of what seems to be a type of culture clash, so I can't help there, but I can say that you've come a long way so you are obviously doing most things right, so pat yourself on the back for that and don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[Ionysis]

The most offensive thing i ever heard a non- NZer say (and im not shearing the rationality ) was
im here to show you kiwis how to work

People get defensive very eaiserly even over the most innocent of misunderstandings or good intentions especially relating to change

A person of another culture or nationality already is different and now they want to change us ?

Its a mine field out there

Wow!! That IS amazingly offensive. If I said that here I’d actually be liable to be fired and even deported if I said it to the wrong person. It would be considered one of the most rude things you could say as a guest in another persons country.

 

[lilmosun]

Every person and situation is different so I am just going to speak from my own career journey (which has been moderately successful but not taken me as far as yours) and things I've advised others who have come to me:

The 40's was the hardest time in my career. Until that point, my career was all upward trajectory, I had just completed an executive MBA (sponsored by my employer) and promoted to a VP role. But I wasn't happy, felt unheard and not effective in playing to the egos/politics in the room. At the same time, my husband did a complete career change making me the primary source of income/benefits with two kids in private school and college on the horizon. It took me awhile to sort things out because it meant really rethinking my career - something I wasn't prepared to do at a point where I felt my career was all set.

Some things to consider (some may apply, some may not):

• Find a role/company that makes happy
  If you aren't happy, then it impacts the rest of your life outside of work. You aren't doing your family any favors no matter how much money you make if you aren't happy. That being said, everyone's criteria will differ - the important thing is to defind yours and focus on it.
  
  
• Find a role that leverages your strengths are and what you do best. Know what you aren't good at and avoid roles where that rely on things you can't completely change/mitigate.
  You can/should always address areas for improvement but you will find most success/happiness leveraging your natual abilities. It does not always mean the traditional career progression. You mention your ADHD - as pointed out that makes your better at doing some things and challenges with others. Make sure your role leverages your strengths and where your challenges aren't insurmountable. You mentioned that you didn't have the same challenges in working with external customers - perhaps you can find a new role in that domain?
  
  
• Focus your energy on the change you can effect, not what you can't
  This was the hardest for me as it meant setting aside some of my idealistic nature. But focusing on what can change is how you make a difference that can define success/happiness. The rest is a waste of time/energy which creates frustration and turmoil. The exception is when it compromises values...and if it comes to that and I can't change things after trying, it's time to look for something different.

The following were the two hardest compromises for me in achieving the above:

• Be flexible on the salary if it comes to that
  Salary isn't the most important thing as long as I made enough to cover my needs and was paid a fair salary for what I was doing
  
  
• (Re)define success
  It wasn't about continued progression in title, etc. It was about finding a job that I was good at and felt good about. I had to tell myself "We aren't all meant to be President". I'm now a dinosaur in my industry and I think that a lot of my longevity has been because I've focused on the above values, so hope it helps.

You mentioned finding a mentor or career coach. If you see someone that you admire, I would encourage you to reach out. I've always envied those who have found a strong mentor. Too many in my career have tried to get me to fit their mold.

Early on in my career, a lot of senior women (and men) possessed hard traits in the office that weren't what I wanted to be (although I found they were very different outside of the office). Things have changed a lot over the decades so much of what I endured is no longer allowed but change doesn't happen overnight or across the board. There are still cultural and gender differences that play out in many companies (or teams within companies). If you can't play the expected role, go somewhere where you can and it's valued - there are more choices nowadays.

Congratulations on all you've accomplished to date - so much to be proud of!

Apologies that my long-winded response probably doesn't directly answer what you asked - which is how to make your current situation work. But fwiw - I think it's important to first determine if it will work for you in a way that makes you happy and if so, how.

 

[Ionysis]

I think this is a very important point. Do you have the type of relationship with your boss where you can have a really frank conversation? Maybe be honest about how you've reflected and wanted him to know that you are (more) aware and will try to be better about tailoring your behavior to your audience? I think this would be quite a good thing on your part and would let him know you are committed not only to your job but to contributing to a positive environment. That being said, these types of conversation can be awkward, however you could work that point into the discussion. I.e., "I have spent the weekend reflecting and want you to know... X, Y, Z. I also realize this is an awkward conversation and appreciate that I can have this discussion with your." It kind of "diffuses" the awkwardness a little once it's been admitted to.

Thankfully my boss is actually my biggest supporter. We are very similar in character and he has had to overcome a lot of natural personality traits which didn’t sit well with people in the company in his role - we were promoted at almost the same time and are almost the same age - younger than most other senior managers who are 50s up. He appreciates my idiosyncrasies now - although before he was my boss we fought like cat and dog actually as our interests were not aligned!

I have so much respect for him that, although we had many a run-in back in the day, he didn’t take it personally and decided to make me his number two after he was promoted. He seemed to feel that the traits which were a pain in his ass when we were competing with each other would be pretty useful to him as a direct report. Now I’m just a pain in other people’s asses!

But you’re 100% right about judging the audience. I generally do very well with people one on one or in small groups - my quirky “charm” comes across. It’s in larger forums that people seem to find me most offensive! Maybe that’s why I was very successful with clients - a more intimate negotiating forum.

 

[marymm]

I don't have any work experience like yours, i.e., high up in work chain supervising large staff number.

When I am at work, I am focused on the best way of getting work accomplished, not on the best way to display my personality. Yes, I have a good sense of humor and a dry wit, but as you already know, humor doesn't play well across the spectrum, no matter the environment.

I will say that your comment about the response box requiring a font size 2 comes off to me as disparaging in a passive-aggressive way -- if feedback is the purpose of that form and you believe the response box's small size would discourage feedback, then you make that comment to the group head in charge of that form, and not necessarily in front of other colleagues unless that is your first and only opportunity to make the comment.

I've worked with plenty of people who think they are funny and/or clever, and who think the workplace is a super place for them to display their funniness and cleverness -- I would have preferred they thought the workplace was a super place to display hard work and factual business-focused discussion and comments.

It seems you know you are upsetting your colleagues and that you take care you do not act that way with your subordinates -- you say your conduct with your subordinates is supportive and helpful -- why wouldn't you keep that same approach with your colleagues and seniors? As you already know, you can be supportive and helpful even while delivering constructive criticism and frank opinions.

If you need stress relief at work, try something that relieves your own stress and not something that increases it -- i.e., humor with your colleagues is ineffective at releasing your stress because it increases strife with your colleagues. Maybe throughout your workday take 5 minutes in your office listening to a funny podcast with earbuds, or stretch your legs in a walk around your building, or tend to a little plant on your desk.

 

[Ionysis]

Every person and situation is different so I am just going to speak from my own career journey (which has been moderately successful but not taken me as far as yours) and things I've advised others who have come to me:

The 40's was the hardest time in my career. Until that point, my career was all upward trajectory, I had just completed an executive MBA (sponsored by my employer) and promoted to a VP role. But I wasn't happy, felt unheard and not effective in playing to the egos/politics in the room. At the same time, my husband did a complete career change making me the primary source of income/benefits with two kids in private school and college on the horizon. It took me awhile to sort things out because it meant really rethinking my career - something I wasn't prepared to do at a point where I felt my career was all set.

Some things to consider (some may apply, some may not):

• Find a role/company that makes happy
  If you aren't happy, then it impacts the rest of your life outside of work. You aren't doing your family any favors no matter how much money you make if you aren't happy. That being said, everyone's criteria will differ - the important thing is to defind yours and focus on it.
  
  
• Find a role that leverages your strengths are and what you do best. Know what you aren't good at and avoid roles where that rely on things you can't completely change/mitigate.
  You can/should always address areas for improvement but you will find most success/happiness leveraging your natual abilities. It does not always mean the traditional career progression. You mention your ADHD - as pointed out that makes your better at doing some things and challenges with others. Make sure your role leverages your strengths and where your challenges aren't insurmountable. You mentioned that you didn't have the same challenges in working with external customers - perhaps you can find a new role in that domain?
  
  
• Focus your energy on the change you can effect, not what you can't
  This was the hardest for me as it meant setting aside some of my idealistic nature. But focusing on what can change is how you make a difference that can define success/happiness. The rest is a waste of time/energy which creates frustration and turmoil. The exception is when it compromises values...and if it comes to that and I can't change things after trying, it's time to look for something different.

The following were the two hardest compromises for me in achieving the above:

• Be flexible on the salary if it comes to that
  Salary isn't the most important thing as long as I made enough to cover my needs and was paid a fair salary for what I was doing
  
  
• (Re)define success
  It wasn't about continued progression in title, etc. It was about finding a job that I was good at and felt good about. I had to tell myself "We aren't all meant to be President". I'm now a dinosaur in my industry and I think that a lot of my longevity has been because I've focused on the above values, so hope it helps.

You mentioned finding a mentor or career coach. If you see someone that you admire, I would encourage you to reach out. I've always envied those who have found a strong mentor. Too many in my career have tried to get me to fit their mold.

Early on in my career, a lot of senior women (and men) possessed hard traits in the office that weren't what I wanted to be (although I found they were very different outside of the office). Things have changed a lot over the decades so much of what I endured is no longer allowed but change doesn't happen overnight or across the board. There are still cultural and gender differences that play out in many companies (or teams within companies). If you can't play the expected role, go somewhere where you can and it's valued - there are more choices nowadays.

Congratulations on all you've accomplished to date - so much to be proud of!

Apologies that my long-winded response probably doesn't directly answer what you asked - which is how to make your current situation work. But fwiw - I think it's important to first determine if it will work for you in a way that makes you happy and if so, how.

Thank you this is helpful. I actually LOVE my job and I think it’s well suited to me - in terms of the responsibilities. I cover five different areas of risk, support and digitisation / process efficiency which means I’m dealing with a hundred things at once. I love the fact that, now I’m not revenue generating, every single thing I do is aimed at making my company a better place - in many different ways. I love that I can work on improving staff empowerment, workplace culture, listening to the suggestions of the people on the coal face and then trying to push them through senior management bureaucracy. That’s why I am so keen to try to do this well. It’s such a rewarding role.

 

[lilmosun]

Thankfully my boss is actually my biggest supporter. We are very similar in character and he has had to overcome a lot of natural personality traits which didn’t sit well with people in the company in his role - we were promoted at almost the same time and are almost the same age - younger than most other senior managers who are 50s up. He appreciates my idiosyncrasies now - although before he was my boss we fought like cat and dog actually as our interests were not aligned!

I have so much respect for him that, although we had many a run-in back in the day, he didn’t take it personally and decided to make me his number two after he was promoted. He seemed to feel that the traits which were a pain in his ass when we were competing with each other would be pretty useful to him as a direct report. Now I’m just a pain in other people’s asses!

This is great. It sounds like he might be the person to help mentor through you current challenges better than we can.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Wow!! That IS amazingly offensive. If I said that here I’d actually be liable to be fired and even deported if I said it to the wrong person. It would be considered one of the most rude things you could say as a guest in another persons country.

Wow!! That IS amazingly offensive. If I said that here I’d actually be liable to be fired and even deported if I said it to the wrong person. It would be considered one of the most rude things you could say as a guest in another persons country.

Sorry my phone is ultra glitchy
Well it was many moons ago
Like about 25 or 30 years ago so a completly different generation
But yea very offensive and im pretty sure no one would say it now unless they were obviously joking - at the time it was not said as a joke

 

[swingtime]

Kudos to you for achieving such success in a male-dominated industry, and for taking care of your family as the sole bread winner.

You shouldn't have to kowtow to anyone. I do think that marymm makes a good point about how you interact with subordinates. Borrowing some of the elements of your interactions with those who report to you (eg, no sarcasm) could help you interact more successfully with your work peers.

You are very tuned in to how your interactions are being received by your work peers. That self awareness must have served you well in your career, and I'm sure it'll serve you well in working this out.

 

[Ionysis]

It sounds very very hard. Wish I can bring u out for a drink. Or let’s be honest we probably feel too much mum guilt for dinner so probably weekday lunch? Lol.

1. Forget the mum guilt
It strikes nearly all the female colleagues I know and honestly they probably do more at home than their husbands yet feel that guilt. Why? It took me a while to process mum guilt but after I realised that men don’t feel dad guilt, then why should we? You are probably doing the best you can under the circumstances so don’t beat yourself up! And it makes u even more unhappy so don’t, or at least that’s how I cope with mum guilt. Understanding what it is, what drives it, knowing that men don’t feel it and telling myself not to feel the same. Cos it’s a waste of time and just takes too much energy.

2. Don’t be so hard on yourself
Easier said than done. I do the same too, replay and beat myself up even knowing that it makes no difference. But again it’s a very female thing. Hard to fight against but we must else you feel a bit batty and beating yourself up really isn’t of any help anyway so don’t.

You have come so far and probably is doing a great job else you wouldn’t have achieved what you have. Just a few tweaks.

Thanks so much for your kind words. Really I appreciate it a lot.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I didn't read all the posts. However, what I did read made me think, this woman, you, has already diagnosed the problem. Yes, your answers are too sarcastic for this group of people. This is a solvable problem. Just slow down your answers when you are in this type of meeting. Err on the side of politeness, with more careful speech. This is not submerging your personality; these are people from a different culture who respond differently. This is a job skill you need for your present position. When you go back to England, and people understand your style better, you can go back to it.
Make it fun, see if you can do it. You'll be ready for the CEO job. You will be the same smart person, only more polite, and one who is too quick on some remarks.

Next year, the CEO. because you know whats needed.

Annette

 

[yssie]

Now what I SHOULD have said was “perhaps we need a larger space to allow an adequate summary to be presented”. What I actually said was “When you brief the team, you might want to tell them to use font size 2 so they can squeeze everything required into those boxes!”The German consultant was offended.

I laughed at this because I can see myself saying exactly the same thing, likely in exactly the same tone, and likely with exactly the same outcome.

@Ionysis I’m glad you’ve got a boss who supports you and believes in you. I wonder if this is a conversation you’d be comfortable having with him? Gender views and cultural mores are very real challenges!!

Congratulations on your achievements so far and good luck!!

 

[prs]

Get rid of the British humor based on sarcasm. I am English and took a job in America when I was 26. Even though I am male that humor did not go over well at work because nobody realized I was joking. It definitely hurt my performance ratings until I figured out my problem and managed to tone it down...but that was easier said than done and took some effort and practice. In the beginning as soon as I saw people weren't reacting the way they should, I would quickly go into damage control mode and say that was meant as a joke and apologize!