Need help with cushion

[doctorjay87]

Hi everyone,

So im VERY new at this and could really use help. Basically, through a friend of a friend (of course) Im able to get a discount on a cushion. I've done some research on the statistics of the diamonds but im still not sure if Im making the right choice. Basically, I can interpret anything on the GIA report, but nothing else

Heres the one Im looking at:

Cushion Brilliant
1.70 carat (7.5x6.88x4.63)
G, VVS1
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Good
Fluorescence None
Table is 53%
Depth is 67.5%
thin-thick girdle. small culet

My main concern is that theres a comment that the crown angles are greater than 40 degrees. Apparently this particular manufacturer specializes in the more antique cushion and most of their stones have that comment on the GIA report. I know the quality of the stone is great on paper(especially for the price-around 11,500 USD) but my priority is for the stone to be "as big and shiny as possible" as requested by my future fiance.

I dont know enough about these cool optical tests on the diamond but i've heard that the high crown angles may take away from the shine. I'm not able to take a picture of it or anything like that since im pretty much dealing with the manufacturer directly. So if I decide to stay away from the crown angle comment, Id have to search their database as best as i can to find one without the comment otherwise Id be stuck spending more money somewhere else.

And in terms of how I thought it looked? well I don't really have anything to compare it to to really tell. I did see a stone at the place that had a normal crown angle and perhaps for a second I may have been able to tell a difference but then it got to a point where I couldnt even tell them apart (and the other stone was 1.4 carat) so I just cant tell. Im very happy to know that its great on paper but I just want to make sure to the average eye that it looks stunning.

Any comments/suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

THANKS!!!!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Many people favor the type of antique stone you have described here and your potential stone sounds like it can be a beauty. In fact, I love cushions with high crown angles and wouldn't buy an antique cut that didn't have high crown angles. I wouldn't worry about that comment (I have it on one of my cushion certs too). People love these antique stones so much that GOG created their signature August Vintage cushions after them - they have a similar look but are cut to perfection (you should check them on on their website).

Since you can't get photos at alll, can you share the GIA certificate at least? Would you have the opportunity to take the stone to an independent appraiser? They will be the best equipped to tell you about the performance of your selected diamond. I haved used Richard Sherwood in the past and I highly recommend him. I would also recommend Dave Atlas.

Here is a great video that may help you - http://www.vimeo.com/7579666

The price looks reasonable. It doesn't look like an extrondinary deal but a good price.

 

[doctorjay87]

Heres a copy of the GIA Cert. Im going to find out if I can get it appraised, but in the meantime, I''ll try to have a family friend who is a jeweler look at it.

With regards to your comment on the price, I definitely don''t need it to be VVS1, I would be happy with a pretty VS2 or so. From my searches, I couldn''t find a very comparable deal.

Do you think I can do better? I''m happy with the size (and the dimensions are on the bigger side from what I''ve seen in 1.70''s)

Thanks again!!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 1/8/2010 1:23:54 AM
Author:doctorjay87
Hi everyone,

So im VERY new at this and could really use help. Basically, through a friend of a friend (of course) Im able to get a discount on a cushion. I've done some research on the statistics of the diamonds but im still not sure if Im making the right choice. Basically, I can interpret anything on the GIA report, but nothing else

Heres the one Im looking at:

Cushion Brilliant
1.70 carat (7.5x6.88x4.63)
G, VVS1
Polish Excellent
Symmetry Good
Fluorescence None
Table is 53%
Depth is 67.5%
thin-thick girdle. small culet

My main concern is that theres a comment that the crown angles are greater than 40 degrees. Apparently this particular manufacturer specializes in the more antique cushion and most of their stones have that comment on the GIA report. I know the quality of the stone is great on paper(especially for the price-around 11,500 USD) but my priority is for the stone to be 'as big and shiny as possible' as requested by my future fiance.

I dont know enough about these cool optical tests on the diamond but i've heard that the high crown angles may take away from the shine. I'm not able to take a picture of it or anything like that since im pretty much dealing with the manufacturer directly. So if I decide to stay away from the crown angle comment, Id have to search their database as best as i can to find one without the comment otherwise Id be stuck spending more money somewhere else.

And in terms of how I thought it looked? well I don't really have anything to compare it to to really tell. I did see a stone at the place that had a normal crown angle and perhaps for a second I may have been able to tell a difference but then it got to a point where I couldnt even tell them apart (and the other stone was 1.4 carat) so I just cant tell. Im very happy to know that its great on paper but I just want to make sure to the average eye that it looks stunning.

Any comments/suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

THANKS!!!!

1) The stone has numbers generally that lend themself to well cut chunky 8 main cushions. However without seeing the inclusion and facet plot and/or a photograph and ASET it doesnt' tell us anything about its light return or how well cut it is. Lots of stones with these numbers can be lousy performers or great ones.
2) GIA doesn't comment on if a stone is antique, they will show the pavillion plot and call them Cushion Brilliant or Old Mine Brilliant.
3) Crown angles greater than 40 degrees are standard for this type of cushion and combined with a tall crown and decent depth contribute to the fire and brightness of well cut varieties of these stones. I'd be concerned if any vintage cut cushion didn't have the steep crown angles.
4) Abazias(often the cheapest drop shipper vendor on Pricescope) sells this same diamond for $12902 so you are getting a very good deal http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=74407081&flag=ps

I really don't understand your buying process? you are using some vendors search engine or rapnet and doing your own search? What is the return policy like for any stone you order? Definitely you want to have any stone you purchase independantly appraised before the return period is over. The main issue here is while the price is good you haven't seen many cushions and have very little to compare this one to. I suggest you go to some retail stores and look at cushions.

For a novice buyer crown angle is not something you should worry about at all, you should be more concerned with the facet structure and light performance. Are you sure you wanted a rectangular stone LW=1.09 some people prefer more square stones.

Take a look at these two videos, If you want to learn about cushions a great video by Jon at GOG can be watched here http://www.vimeo.com/7579666 and bonus footage here http://www.vimeo.com/7611843.
These should give you an idea about what great looking, average looking and poor looking cushions look like and explain some of the varieties of cuts available.

Can't your family friend snap some photos for you or allow you to do it? You might also purchase an handheld ASET and take in image that way as well http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=23&ShowAdd=Y
if you post either a photograph or ASET we can tell you a lot more about this diamond.

Good-luck I am interested in how this turns out.

 

[doctorjay87]

about the buying process:

The reason I'm getting a good deal is because the person Im buying the stone from works at the company that manufactures the stone, so im pretty getting the wholesale price the jeweler would pay. Since theyre doing me a favor, theyre not giving me much leeway with regards to additional statistics beyond looking at the stone and the GIA cert.

I've seen all those videos. In fact, I only got worried enough to make this post after seeing the videos. In my second post I have the GIA cert with the best facet diagram i can get at the moment.

Basically, my family friend who is a jeweler liked the stone from only looking at the GIA report. But after seeing the video, I learned that the cert isnt enough. So what can I really ask?

Basically, with the GIA cert, the general proportions/specifications, I plan to have my mother(who has no experience with diamonds, would just like shape, size, and shinyness) and hopefully my family friend jeweler (who is usually reliable but when I spoke to him, he seemed to care more about the fact that its VVS1 than the quality of its shine) take a look at the stone to see if they approve of its overall beauty.

Without getting the ASET or any other fancy optical reports, considering the circumstances with the deal and everything, can this be enough to go through with the purchase?

Thanks for bearing with me

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 1/8/2010 12:15:27 PM
Author: doctorjay87
about the buying process:

The reason I'm getting a good deal is because the person Im buying the stone from works at the company that manufactures the stone, so im pretty getting the wholesale price the jeweler would pay. Since theyre doing me a favor, theyre not giving me much leeway with regards to additional statistics beyond looking at the stone and the GIA cert.

I've seen all those videos. In fact, I only got worried enough to make this post after seeing the videos. In my second post I have the GIA cert with the best facet diagram i can get at the moment.

Basically, my family friend who is a jeweler liked the stone from only looking at the GIA report. But after seeing the video, I learned that the cert isnt enough. So what can I really ask?

Basically, with the GIA cert, the general proportions/specifications, I plan to have my mother(who has no experience with diamonds, would just like shape, size, and shinyness) and hopefully my family friend jeweler (who is usually reliable but when I spoke to him, he seemed to care more about the fact that its VVS1 than the quality of its shine) take a look at the stone to see if they approve of its overall beauty.

Without getting the ASET or any other fancy optical reports, considering the circumstances with the deal and everything, can this be enough to go through with the purchase?

Thanks for bearing with me

Where are you? Where is the cutting house? In NYC?
Do you have the stone in your hands?

Who is going to set the stone and have you chosen what setting it will go into?

I can suggest a few appraisors depending on where you and the stone are located.

If your family jeweler is more concerned with clarity than cut I'd say they would not be a very good person nor have much experience with cushions.
Anything more than eye clean to your standards, the differences will not be observable with the naked eye. There is no way if this is in fact the stone on the certificate that anyone will see the inclusions of a VVS1 with their eyes so this is a non issue for me. What is of much greater importance is the cut.

What you should be concerned about is any obstruction(darkness) (bowtie) and leakage(window areas). We can guess on these from a photograph or view them through an ASET but an appraisor or your eyes can tell you much better when you/they see the stone in person.

I would take this stone to an independant appraisor they can snap photographs under a microscope and a good appraisor has an ASET and Idealscope setup as well. In addition if they have experience with cushions can tell you about your stone and how it compares to other vintage cut cushions. If you have the stone purchased or on memo you should have enough time to see an appraisor and they can do the work in front of you it can take 1 - 2 hours at most to do a thorough examination, verify the certificate and tell you a little about cut. They should do it in front of you, if all you want is to verify the certificate and get some images probably much less time. I'd say well worth ~$100 to be sure about your purchase.

CCL

 

[doctorjay87]

yes, its in nyc.

i dont have the stone on me. Im pretty much only able to see it in the office. Im going to try to see if I can get it appraised first. I dont think it should be too much of a problem.

The setting that we plan to put it in is a replica of the cartier ballerine. The person who will do it is someone through the diamond cutter (because of the price discount-id get the jeweler's price and not the customer's price again). Heres a pic of the setting:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/asl_db5e2623e84bbb7eacc599465ee904ab/resources/images/media/36_10724_Cartier_Ballerine_Ring_93bd3149484d_zoom.jpg

If you can recommend someone in NYC, that would be great! I'd have the pictures up ASAP
The diamond cutter is incredibly nice and helpful and I don't think theyd try to screw me over or anything, but he may himself not know much about the advanced optics

Thanks again

 

[doctorjay87]

ok I have an update:

I spoke the diamond guy about the possiblity of taking the stone to get it checked but he said the only way I could do it would be to pay for it first (which im not necessarily so comfortable doing).

So im looking into getting the handheld scope to see if I can get a picture but what will likely happen is just to have as many people as i can look at it and approve before i get it (after all, as long as the average person finds it stunning I know my wife to be will be happy and thats more important than the crown angles)

Thanks so much for the help guys. I''ll post updates if/as they come

 

[dssxxxx]

One small word of advice from someone who knows little if anything about diamonds.

The GIA report looks fine from the info provided.

You have seen the diamond and you like it. If you have seen it compared to similar diamonds, color/clarity and lesser/better ones and you still like it and the price is right, pull the trigger and buy it.

You will never find the diamond that everyone loves unless it is a near perfact diamond, which 99.9% of us cannot afford.

Remember, it''s you that has to buy the diamond and you/or GF/W has to wear it and look at it.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 1/8/2010 2:49:34 PM
Author: doctorjay87
ok I have an update:

I spoke the diamond guy about the possiblity of taking the stone to get it checked but he said the only way I could do it would be to pay for it first (which im not necessarily so comfortable doing).

So im looking into getting the handheld scope to see if I can get a picture but what will likely happen is just to have as many people as i can look at it and approve before i get it (after all, as long as the average person finds it stunning I know my wife to be will be happy and thats more important than the crown angles)

Thanks so much for the help guys. I'll post updates if/as they come

First I would call Mark at Engagementringsdirect.com he is in Manhatten and is known to source great chunky faceted cushions. Give him your budget and specs and see what he can find. At the very least he can educate you on diamonds and show you some other nice cushions as a basis for comparison.

You might also consider purchasing the stone, make sure you get the return policy in writing as well. You could take the stone to compare with other sourced stones and/or or to an appraisor.
I would suggest David Wolf in NYC http://www.justappraisers.com/ his office will be closed until Monday though. I know he can do Photographs and has a lot of experience as well.

Unfortunately there aren't that many chunky faceted 8 main cushions on the market these days so doing a comparison with Mark at ERD, Jon at GOG (in long island) and this stone with your own eyes would be the best way to make a decision.

 

[doctorjay87]

Thanks again for all the help everyone. I will post pics as soon as I can.

quick question on a bit of a different topic. I noticed that you said that the cushion was rectangular. I thought rectangular cushions had a LW more than 1.15. My request from my girlfriend was to make it square or rectangular, but if it was rectangular, it couldn't have that skinny look, so i figured that this one was ok. From my eyes i thought it wasnt really a big deal, especially with the type of setting (i posted a link of it above). I had even hinted to her about the possibility of it being slightly oblong and she just repeated that she didnt mind (especially if it meant a higher carat) but didnt want it to look long and skinny.

Do you think I should be concerned?

Just to add, she originally wanted an emerald cut (she was debating between the emerald with two triangles on the side in the setting and the cartier one with the cushion). Though she also wanted the tiffany novo which is a square cushion, but my brother got that one for his fiance, so thats why we were thinking of the more antique cut cushion with the antique cartier setting. So she likes squares and thick rectangles... I hope everything works smooth with this one! who knew this would be so tough?!?!

Thanks again, especially for reading my almost-rant

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 1/8/2010 5:17:26 PM
Author: doctorjay87
Thanks again for all the help everyone. I will post pics as soon as I can.

quick question on a bit of a different topic. I noticed that you said that the cushion was rectangular. I thought rectangular cushions had a LW more than 1.15. My request from my girlfriend was to make it square or rectangular, but if it was rectangular, it couldn''t have that skinny look, so i figured that this one was ok. From my eyes i thought it wasnt really a big deal, especially with the type of setting (i posted a link of it above). I had even hinted to her about the possibility of it being slightly oblong and she just repeated that she didnt mind (especially if it meant a higher carat) but didnt want it to look long and skinny.

It won''t look long and skinny, it just doesn''t look perfectly symmetrical like the perfectly square cushions.

Do you think I should be concerned? No We all have our biases. For me I like perfectly square and the best cut possible and I am willing to sacrifice size to get it. It is equally reasonable and valid to like the stone to be a little rectangular, and well cut but not a cut optimized for light performance so that you can get the biggest stone possible. All of this speculation is trumped by how you feel about the stone you saw, if you told us you saw a number of stones and this is the one you liked the most than that trumps everythingelse. Just I can''t stress enough that you have to get out there and view some nice cushions. Go to Harry Winston, to GOG to ERD and view them in person, I love the numbers on these things but the report leave out key data making it really a guessing game until you see the actual stone.


Just to add, she originally wanted an emerald cut (she was debating between the emerald with two triangles on the side in the setting and the cartier one with the cushion). Though she also wanted the tiffany novo which is a square cushion, but my brother got that one for his fiance, so thats why we were thinking of the more antique cut cushion with the antique cartier setting. So she likes squares and thick rectangles... I hope everything works smooth with this one! who knew this would be so tough?!?!

You are posting in a forum of diamond fanatics and professionals in the business who scrutinize every detail to the nth degree. My wife of two weeks says I am the "Diamond Munster" and she can''t beleive I still spend so much time posting here. Considering how carefully you have been looking for cushions and how you are sticking to safe ranges for most of your choices I don''t see how it won''t work out. My advice is do as exhaustive a search as you feel is necessary and then don''t look back. The rest of the diamond buying public will probably ooh and ahh about any of the choices you are considering and I''m sure your fiance will be thrilled in any case as you have sought her advice as much as possible. She sounds like she is not rigid in her preferences and this makes it much easier for you as many choices will suffice.


Thanks again, especially for reading my almost-rant

 

[Lorelei]

Hi doctorjay

Firstly the comment "crown angles greater than 40 degrees" is not normally something to be concerned about, you see this quite often on the grading reports of fancy shapes.

For the diamond you have in mind, if you could get an ASET scope as you mention getting a hand held scope, this would be very helpful. Also if you could get a return policy in writing, this would give you time to get the stone appraised, this might give you some peace of mind.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I think the L/W ratio you selected lends nicely to the Cartier Ballerine setting. In fact, I have a replica of that setting too and I love it. It is so unique and special but I wear it as a RHR.

You are not going to find a lot of diamonds to beat the on paper specs you have here. The 3 pinpoints are great inclusions to have - check out the indent though but suspect it is a non issue with a vvs. The August Vintage diamonds you see in the videos from GOG will be hard to beat by other cutters. I have not seen other cushions perform as well but you will also be paying a premium for this.

My suggestion - at the least go take a digital photo of the stone. It will take a few days before you can order an ASET scope and even that .. it isn't that easy for a begininner to take proper ASET images that are useful. At this point, since it is a virtual stone - I am worried that someone will snatch it up since I don't think your friend is holding the stone for you.

The other option is to figure out what their return policy is. Perhaps it makes sense to buy the stone if they promise that they will let you return/exchange it if it doesn't check out with the appraiser. Instead of going to David Wolf, I would actually take the time to drive the stone to Dave Atlas in Philly (it's only a couple hours drive) or send the stone to Richard Sherwood. Dave and Richard are much more familiar with these types of stones and the reports are excellent. If it checks out with them, you are golden.

The price is good as I said - I don't think you will beat it with a vendor you don't have a relationship with. It isn't the deal of the century but several hundred dollars saved is great.