Need help with 2 round cuts for purchase tomorrow

[jimand]

Hello -

I''m a first time poster and first time buyer. I need to decide today between
2 stones for an engagement ring. I will not see either stone in person due to
time and travel constraints.

I have been emailed the GIA cert for Stone 1. Still waiting for the GIA cert
for Stone 2. Stone will go on Lucida/X-pring plat setting.

Stone 2 is from most reputable/high end store in city. Stone 1 is family owned
outfit in biz for 30 years, high volume.


Stone 1:

GIA: March 1, 2005
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.21 - 7.24 x 4.36 mm
Carat Weight: 1.37 carat
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: SI1
Proportions:
Depth: 60.34%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Medium. Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Faint


Stone 2:

Still waiting on the GIA spec. All I have is:

1.26 E color, VS2 clarity (high white-GIA cert papers) one of the best cutters in New York


I''ve asked for the GIA spec for Stone 2. Is there anything else I should ask for?

From reading the other posts, I realize I don''t have much information.
Nevertheless, I need to decide with the information I have.

thanks,
-jim

 

[stitch]

For round brilliance, you also need crow and pavilion angles, and lower half if possible.

 

[FB.]

We need more information.
Either the full set of proportions from the certificate, or the certificate number (and we can look them up).

An older GIA stone makes you wonder why it has sat around all this time without a buyer. Having said that, the table%, depth% and girdle numbers don't necessarily give cause for concern.
But there could be some bad crown or pavilion angle combinations hidden within - some shallow stones have problems with obstruction. On the other hand, deep stones can have problems with a "ring of death".

My advice: walk away unless you have more information. You wouldn't buy a car without knowing the make, model, engine size and other features.

You could buy from an online seller, who can - in many cases - instantly provide the necessary numbers and images of their diamonds to make an informed decision.

 

[jimand]

Thanks for the response.

The GIA report for Stone 1 is 14260992.

I expect to receive the GIA report for Stone 2 shortly.

-jim

 

[lopezsie]

I know how you feel! I am having the same issue choosing between a G VS2 at 1.27 or H VS2 at 1.41. My issue is that I have a size 7-7.5 finger, so I am concerned about getting the larger stone but also don''t want it to look more yellow than other stones of higher color grades. What size finger will you be shopping for? That is important. Also, make sure whichever stone you choose is HIGH quality CUT, because that is where the SPARKLE comes from and an excellent cut usually means more attention-drawing!

 

[jet2ks]

GIA didn''t institute cut grading until 2006, so the 2005 report only lists the stats you already have. Without knowing crown and pavillion angles at the minimum, there is no way to help evaluate the stone.

 

[stitch]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:12:31 PM
Author: jimand
Thanks for the response.

The GIA report for Stone 1 is 14260992.

I expect to receive the GIA report for Stone 2 shortly.

-jim

The report for stone 1 is old. You might want to check that it is trade-in stone.

 

[yssie]

+1. You might ask the vendors to ship to an appraiser who can tell you a bit more and give you an unbiased opinion...

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:12:31 PM
Author: jimand
Thanks for the response.

The GIA report for Stone 1 is 14260992.

I expect to receive the GIA report for Stone 2 shortly.

-jim

Sadly, without proportions and/or IS or ASET images, it''s NO DEAL for stone number one.

Let''s see how the numbers look for number two.

 

[jimand]

How do I find out if it is a trade-in stone? Is there a CarFax equivalent for stones?


The store selling Stone 1 will not offer a refund, so I don''t think I can
have it shipped to an appraiser but I haven''t asked.


-jim

 

[stitch]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:24:17 PM
Author: jimand
How do I find out if it is a trade-in stone? Is there a CarFax equivalent for stones?


The store selling Stone 1 will not offer a refund, so I don''t think I can
have it shipped to an appraiser but I haven''t asked.


-jim

I went to a similar experience and stone-cold pointed it out and advice me to ask the seller. I asked the seller and found out that the stone he offered is a trade-in. You should ask the seller too.

 

[jimand]

I believe she is a size 7. I''m taking a ring she wears to the store to find the exact size.

I was told the 1.27 E-VS2 is from a top cutter in NY named Saul.

Seems I need to be asking about the crown and pavillion angles. What is the lower half
spec that was mentioned? Is this a single value?


I believe the GIA for Stone 2 1.27 E-VS2 does not have the recent GIA cut grade value.
I was told this added recently bu GIA to the spec about 3 years ago.

Still waiting on Stone 2 GIA spec. I''ve also asked for the crown and pavillion angles
and lower half value. Anything else? Responder mentioned IS or ASET images.
Would they have these already or need to generate?

-jim

 

[yssie]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:24:17 PM
Author: jimand
How do I find out if it is a trade-in stone? Is there a CarFax equivalent for stones?


The store selling Stone 1 will not offer a refund, so I don't think I can
have it shipped to an appraiser but I haven't asked.


-jim

Question - do you care? With a reputable vendor, if the stone is a trade-in, it'll have been polished, thoroughly checked over, perhaps even assigned a new cert before going back on the market for sale. It's not like a car, where there's wear and tear - when it's sold again it's of the same "quality" that it would've been had it been cut just days before. Any stone may be pre-owned but it doesn't come to you with finger-prints all over - just some sort of juju, if that's important to you

ETA: I would not buy a stone under a final-sale policy, unless they were willing to ship the stone to an appraiser and have the purchase be contingent on the outcome.


ETA: If you're feeling industrious and they can't get you images you could purchase your own idealscope/aset scope and take a look yourself, maybe even photograph it yourself and have the experts here take a look

 

[stitch]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:28:37 PM
Author: jimand
I believe she is a size 7. I''m taking a ring she wears to the store to find the exact size.

I was told the 1.27 E-VS2 is from a top cutter in NY named Saul.

Seems I need to be asking about the crown and pavillion angles. What is the lower half
spec that was mentioned? Is this a single value?


I believe the GIA for Stone 2 1.27 E-VS2 does not have the recent GIA cut grade value.
I was told this added recently bu GIA to the spec about 3 years ago.

Still waiting on Stone 2 GIA spec. I''ve also asked for the crown and pavillion angles
and lower half value. Anything else? Responder mentioned IS or ASET images.
Would they have these already or need to generate?

-jim

The lower half is the measurement from the girdle to the bottom of the culet; please correct me if I am wrong.It is a single value. IS is the image sccope that give a visual of how the stone performs under the light. It will show light leakage if any. Most likely the store owner won''t have these for you.

 

[jimand]

I hadn''t considered the effect of the stone being a trade-in. Since the GIA cert is dated 2005,
it doesn''t look like the store had it re-certified. The store does advertise they have a large
inventory. I expect some of that is trade-in.


Now that I''m thinking of trade-in, I can see it may raise a flag as to why someone traded it in.
Was there a flaw, problem, did they need the money, simply wanted to upgrade?

If the stone had an interesting story or history, a trade-in could be a good thing, but
more if the stone was passed down through the family. My girlfriend wears a stone
her grandmother wore in her hair in a camp during WWII.

...which reminds me of Christopher Walken''s watch in Pulp Fiction

 

[jimand]

The trade-in doesn''t concern me but the no-refund policy does, That seems to be the benefit of the online vendors, at least Blue Nile.
They store said they will "fix" any problem but they are firm on no refunds for Stone 1.

 

[FB.]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:24:17 PM
Author: jimand
How do I find out if it is a trade-in stone? Is there a CarFax equivalent for stones?


The store selling Stone 1 will not offer a refund, so I don't think I can

have it shipped to an appraiser but I haven't asked.


-jim

In that case, I would definitely forget all about stone number 1.
Not enough information and no chance to return if it's ugly.
The small table and shallow depth could allow a very shallow crown and pavilion could cause obstruction; a stone with a black centre that never goes away.
The fact that the stone is years old also makes me wonder why nobody else bought it (unless it's a trade-in), if it was so beautiful. But if it's a trade-in, why was the previous owner not happy with it?

 

[yssie]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:33:57 PM
Author: stitch

Date: 12/18/2009 3:28:37 PM
Author: jimand
I believe she is a size 7. I'm taking a ring she wears to the store to find the exact size.

I was told the 1.27 E-VS2 is from a top cutter in NY named Saul.

Seems I need to be asking about the crown and pavillion angles. What is the lower half
spec that was mentioned? Is this a single value?


I believe the GIA for Stone 2 1.27 E-VS2 does not have the recent GIA cut grade value.
I was told this added recently bu GIA to the spec about 3 years ago.

Still waiting on Stone 2 GIA spec. I've also asked for the crown and pavillion angles
and lower half value. Anything else? Responder mentioned IS or ASET images.
Would they have these already or need to generate?

-jim

The lower half is the measurement from the girdle to the bottom of the culet; please correct me if I am wrong.It is a single value. IS is the image sccope that give a visual of how the stone performs under the light. It will show light leakage if any. Most likely the store owner won't have these for you.

Elaborating -

LGF is distance from girdle towards culet.

That's why it's an indicator of fat/skinny arrows - the longer the LGF, the further toward the culet the tips of those facets reach, and the thinner the resulting pavilion mains.

My crude paintjob -

 

[yssie]

Threadjack over.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 12/18/2009 3:43:07 PM
Author: jimand
The trade-in doesn''t concern me but the no-refund policy does, That seems to be the benefit of the online vendors, at least Blue Nile.
They store said they will ''fix'' any problem but they are firm on no refunds for Stone 1.

Ditto the others. I would not buy a stone from any vendor, online or B&M without a refund policy in writing.

 

[jimand]

The vendor for Stone 1 got annoyed that I am not going ahead since they spent
so many hours on the phone with me. I told them I am considering 2 stones
and they switched gears to the annoyed demeanor . They said took it personal
because they really want to help me.

Must be a sales tactic.

Still waiting on the GIA for Stone 2 in email. I''ve been dealing with the store
manager and I''m giving him the benefit of doubt that he is busy with holiday
shoppers...

 

[jimand]

Finally got the GIA cert for Stone 2.

This is also an older GIA, so there is no crown angles or cut grade.
Their appraiser has a lab and a Sarin machine and will do a full work up and Appraisal on the diamond
tomorrow. "She''s got every appraisal/gemologist designation available and even holds a "British Fellow of Gemology" degree."
But this is their appraiser. I guess I could hold it per results of the appraisal if it looks to be the one.

Just based on the 2 GIAs, is there a clear choice? I definitely can''t get the crown and pavillion angles
for Stone 2.

I do need to make a decision.

Stone 2:
GIA: 14613841
Sept. 2005
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.87 -6.96 x 4.26 mm
Carat Weight: 1.26 carat
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS2
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 59%
Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Faint


And for reference, here is Stone 1 again, though several
folks suggested walking away since there is a zero refund policy at this
B&M store.

Stone 1:
GIA: 14260992
March 1, 2005
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.21 - 7.24 x 4.36 mm
Carat Weight: 1.37 carat
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: SI1
Proportions:
Depth: 60.34%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Medium. Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Faint

 

[jimand]

Date: 12/18/2009 6:11:52 PM
Author: jimand
F
Just based on the 2 GIAs, is there a clear choice? I definitely can''t get the crown and pavillion angles

for Stone 2.

Typo. I cannot get the crown/pavilion angles for Stone 2.

Stone 1 will be appraised by store before setting. I assume they
can give me these numbers then.

I think I will have to make a decision without knowing these numbers.

 

[jimand]

Date: 12/18/2009 6:27:13 PM
Author: jimand

Date: 12/18/2009 6:11:52 PM

Author: jimand

F

Just based on the 2 GIAs, is there a clear choice? I definitely can''t get the crown and pavillion angles


for Stone 2.

Typo. I cannot get the crown/pavilion angles for Stone 2.


Stone 1 will be appraised by store before setting. I assume they

can give me these numbers then.


I think I will have to make a decision without knowing these numbers.

I got this backwards again, mixing up Stone 1 & 2 in a panic state.
Not the way I like to make decisions....

Summary:

Stone 1 (1.37 H-SI1)
- I will not have crown/pavilion for Stone 1.
- Zero refund policy.


Stone 2 (1.26 E-VS2)
- Will be appraised by store. I may have the crown/pavilion then.
- Checking on refund policy. This is the most reputable store in town.
It *feels* less risky based on their reputation.

Stone 2 is about $600 more.

 

[jimand]

Question: If the older GIA certifications are a red flag, why don''t
the B&M stores pay for a new GIA certification that has the newer
Cut classification?

I''m trying to decide between these 2 stones that both have a 2005
GIA cert.

I''m running out of time so online purchase is not an attractive option
given my time and travel constraints.

 

[jimand]

It''s down to the wire. Sadly both GIA certs are 2005 and do not have
Cut classification nor crown/pavilion values. I need to decide based on
this info (+ price which I have excluded but Stone 2 as I said is $600 more).


Stone 1:
-------
GIA: 14260992
March 1, 2005
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.21 - 7.24 x 4.36 mm
Carat Weight: 1.37 carat
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: SI1
Proportions:
Depth: 60.34%
Table: 55%
Girdle: Medium. Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Faint


Stone 2:
------
GIA: 14613841
Sept. 2005
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 6.87 -6.96 x 4.26 mm
Carat Weight: 1.26 carat
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS2
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 59%
Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Faint

 

[stitch]

Uhmm do the appraiser measure crown and pavillion angles?

 

[jimand]

I will ask. I am suggesting I can purchase contingent on the appraisal.
But I won''t know what the acceptable range of values are.

I''m asking for info I won''t know what to do with. Of course I can send
to the forum and see what folks think.

Too bad all these older GIA certs aren''t updated. This is what I am hung
up on. My understanding is it is only a few hundred to get a cert. Perhaps
they need to be sent in and there is a time cost to that.

 

[stitch]

I think the cost for a new GIA certificate is $150. Last time i brought my stone to an appraiser, he just verify stone, inclusion plot, cert number on the stone, take picture. However he doesn''t take measurement.

When I was under similar situation like yours, I told the store owner has the stone graded again by GIA. If the stone come back graded good and I buy and paid for the grading fee. If I don''t buy because of the bad regrading result, I will just walk without paying. The owner agreed.

You can always try to ask for the same thing that I did.

 

[jimand]

Thanks. The manager just told me 100% guarantee, no questions asked, They''ve been in business over 100 years,
Stellar rep. I''m going with the E-VS2.