Need an opinion on a stone

[tguy2012]

Hi all--

This thread is a follow-on to to "Starting Over" ([URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/starting-the-search-over-help-me-find-a-stone.188481/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/starting-the-search-over-help-me-find-a-stone.188481/[/URL]).

To summarize, I'm looking for a Round GIA or AGS stone with the following properties:

1.75-1.85 carat (note: I'm more interested in a spread of 7.80mm+ than the actual carat weight, but this should be a reasonable range for that)
Ex/Ex/Ex
H or I
VS2 or SI1
Faint to No Fluorescence

Also, I'm having trouble weighting a particular stone's HCA score commensurately with others (like AGS 0's) but which might have higher scores.

I found one that I liked based on a filter of GIA stones meeting the above criteria, and with HCA scores
I've attached GIA report, real image and ASET image. Looking for some opinions. Note: I've been assured that the crystal in the middle is not visible to the unaided eye.

Thanks.

[edit] In case you can't read the report:
Round Brilliant
Measurements
7.90 - 7.94 x 4.80 mm
Carat Weight
1.81 carat
Color Grade
I
Clarity Grade
VS2
Cut Grade
Excellent

proportions
Depth
60.6 %
Table
54 %
Crown Angle
32.0°
Crown Height
14.5%
Pavilion Angle
41.0°
Pavilion Depth
43.5%
Star Length
50%
Lower Half
75%
Girdle
Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.0%
Culet
None

finish
Polish
Excellent
Symmetry
Excellent

Fluorescence
Fluorescence
None

clarity characteristics
clarity characteristics
Crystal, Feather, Needle

comments

Pinpoints are not shown.

 

[iwasbornforlife]

Around how much is this one going for?

 

[tguy2012]

Around how much is this one going for?

I'm intentionally withholding the price (at least for now), because I don't want it to skew the perception of the beauty/quality of the diamond itself in any way. Feel free to show me alternates which you think might be comparable though.

 

[04diamond<3]

Maybe it's just me but it looks a bit hazy...can they confirm that it's just the picture? The IS looks pretty good.

 

[JulieN]

I know you are withholding the price, but... what is the price?

It has a shallow angled crown and it looks like there is some untraditional brillianteering, but the IS is not very good, it is hard to tell.

There is the normal leakage at the arrow tips and at the "watermelon seeds" on the left side of the stone, maybe a bit less than what you would see conventionally, but not on the right side.

 

[iwasbornforlife]

If the price is too low that you think it will affect what people think about the diamond that it already sounds too good to be true, as diamonds bought from the right company, such as the one I purchased through from USA Certed Diamonds, which I then went to three other appraisals and all three told me the same that I got a true bargain and the diamond appraised for twice what it was worth, AND I got exactly what I wanted. Also scored high on the HCA scale. Too low of a price usually means there is something wrong with the diamond is what I noticed from all the reasearch I've done as a consumer.

 

[iwasbornforlife]

plus the table of the diamond looks off and kind of wierd to my eyes, but i'm not a gemologist.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I agree that the diamond looks hazy in the photo but I am cautious in making such a judgement from just one photo. Have you seen it and does it have a hazy experience in real life? I have only seen it once in real life - well cut diamond but appeared hazy which impacted the overall appearance of the diamond. In my case, I was told the haziness was caused by the inclusions but I don't know if I fully buy that.

 

[04diamond<3]

If the price is too low that you think it will affect what people think about the diamond that it already sounds too good to be true, as diamonds bought from the right company, such as the one I purchased through from USA Certed Diamonds, which I then went to three other appraisals and all three told me the same that I got a true bargain and the diamond appraised for twice what it was worth, AND I got exactly what I wanted. Also scored high on the HCA scale. Too low of a price usually means there is something wrong with the diamond is what I noticed from all the reasearch I've done as a consumer.

No. I wouldn't worry about what others think regarding the price. If however, the price is significantly lower than similar stones, then that might be something to be cautious about. Can he give you a better/another picture? Has he confirmed whether the stone is hazy?? I'd be more concerned about that...

 

[tguy2012]

I uploaded a new image. I have not seen the diamond in person (yet), but in this picture it doesn't look hazy.


The price is NOT substantially lower than those of comparable 4C's, and GIA certified. However, it is priced lower when compared to diamonds of similar spread and HCA score, which makes it particularly appealing to me. This diamond has a really nice spread for a 1.81, and on top of that boasts an HCA of 0.8. I'm having trouble finding much else I can use to narrow down the field. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[tguy2012]

I know you are withholding the price, but... what is the price?

It has a shallow angled crown and it looks like there is some untraditional brillianteering, but the IS is not very good, it is hard to tell.

There is the normal leakage at the arrow tips and at the "watermelon seeds" on the left side of the stone, maybe a bit less than what you would see conventionally, but not on the right side.

I'm in the process of trying to get another image. I've asked to ensure that calibration is accurate and that the stone be centered under the light. Is there anything else I should have asked for?

 

[tguy2012]

OK, so now apparently this is the best IS they can take.

The price is ~$15500 including any discounts.

 

[new4diamond]

OK, so now apparently this is the best IS they can take.

The price is ~$15500 including any discounts.

Is that also the best picture they can take?...they sell diamonds and that is the best they can do?...If it were me I would keep looking, you will find something better.

 

[04diamond<3]

OK, so now apparently this is the best IS they can take.

The price is ~$15500 including any discounts.

Is that also the best picture they can take?...they sell diamonds and that is the best they can do?...If it were me I would keep looking, you will find something better.

The second picture wasn't intended to be the "best" picture. It was to show whether or not the stone is hazy which IMO, it served it's purpose.

OP - Would Martin send it to you to see in person? I think it's a beautiful stone and I respect his opinions and would trust what he says. I'm sure if you don't like it, he'd take it back and find you something comparable.

 

[tguy2012]

Who's Martin?

Returns are not a concern. I most certainly can do that if necessary. I'm just trying to avoid that if I can eliminate a candidate diamond by pictures alone. What are your opinions on the reason I'm interested in this stone (emphasis on HCA score, spread for its carat, and price)? What might I be missing if I focus on these things (within the parameters I outlined in the first post)?

 

[04diamond<3]

Who's Martin?

Returns are not a concern. I most certainly can do that if necessary. I'm just trying to avoid that if I can eliminate a candidate diamond by pictures alone. What are your opinions on the reason I'm interested in this stone (emphasis on HCA score, spread for its carat, and price)? What might I be missing if I focus on these things (within the parameters I outlined in the first post)?

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you got yours from USA Certed Diamonds, but it was someone else. I think the stone is beautiful, so I'd just get it and see what it looks like in person. I definitely think it's worth it!

 

[John P]

This is an example of a diamond I love for its personality. It doesn't fit the "cookie-cut" that our enthusiast community (respectfully) immediately embraces. Hey, same for the branded diamond for which I work. For what it's worth, here is a blow-by-blow:

Depth 60.6 % [ Nice contributor to spread ]
Table 54 % [ This is awesome, given the CA ]
Crown Angle 32.0°[ Normally a bit shallow, but with the small table the resultant crown height is killer ]
Crown Height 14.5% [ Very nice, in line with PS paradigms and my own standards FWIW ]
Pavilion Angle 41.0° [ As long as the cut is consistent - based on IS it is - this is fine ]
Star Length 50% [ Stock ]
Lower Half 75% [ THIS is where there's personality...the 54% table and 75% LH will make for some bold, broadflash fire ]
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.0% [ No problem ]

To my eye the images you've been given have been executed as an extra, not something that is compulsory for the seller. There is tilt in the original IS image, making it seem worse than it is, and the "new image" (showing no haze) suffers from tilt and obstruction of the camera which creates the darkness. This is not the seller's fault, nor the diamond's. I wager they are trying to provide something for you that is outside their usual accommodations. In this case I will stand-up for folks who don't regularly photograph diamonds... It is extremely hard. Based on the numbers and with an (admittedly) postulating approach I think this is a very cool candidate which can be a strong performer.

 

[sha4000]

I would go with what John says, that is a very comprehensive breakdown.

 

[tguy2012]

This is an example of a diamond I love for its personality. It doesn't fit the "cookie-cut" that our enthusiast community (respectfully) immediately embraces. Hey, same for the branded diamond for which I work. For what it's worth, here is a blow-by-blow:

Depth 60.6 % [ Nice contributor to spread ]
Table 54 % [ This is awesome, given the CA ]
Crown Angle 32.0°[ Normally a bit shallow, but with the small table the resultant crown height is killer ]
Crown Height 14.5% [ Very nice, in line with PS paradigms and my own standards FWIW ]
Pavilion Angle 41.0° [ As long as the cut is consistent - based on IS it is - this is fine ]
Star Length 50% [ Stock ]
Lower Half 75% [ THIS is where there's personality...the 54% table and 75% LH will make for some bold, broadflash fire ]
Girdle Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.0% [ No problem ]

To my eye the images you've been given have been executed as an extra, not something that is compulsory for the seller. There is tilt in the original IS image, making it seem worse than it is, and the "new image" (showing no haze) suffers from tilt and obstruction of the camera which creates the darkness. This is not the seller's fault, nor the diamond's. I wager they are trying to provide something for you that is outside their usual accommodations. In this case I will stand-up for folks who don't regularly photograph diamonds... It is extremely hard. Based on the numbers and with an (admittedly) postulating approach I think this is a very cool candidate which can be a strong performer.

John--

I sincerely thank you for this level of analysis--exactly the type of information I was looking for. I'll give it a try and see what it looks like in real life.

 

[tguy2012]

So I've gotten the diamond, but...

How do I correctly assess the brilliance, fire and scintillation? I've watched a few YouTube videos, but it's hard to tell exactly the lighting conditions they're using. I'm not sure how much brilliance reasonably to expect from typical indoor diffused lighting, for instance. I can't tell if the stone is dark, or if my impossible standards aren't being met. More importantly I have nothing to compare to. Under an LED spotlight (especially very close up) it performs wonderfully--but that's almost cheating.

Any suggestions on how to do a fair assessment without access to pro tools?

 

[John P]

So I've gotten the diamond, but...

How do I correctly assess the brilliance, fire and scintillation? I've watched a few YouTube videos, but it's hard to tell exactly the lighting conditions they're using. I'm not sure how much brilliance reasonably to expect from typical indoor diffused lighting, for instance. I can't tell if the stone is dark, or if my impossible standards aren't being met. More importantly I have nothing to compare to. Under an LED spotlight (especially very close up) it performs wonderfully--but that's almost cheating.

Any suggestions on how to do a fair assessment without access to pro tools?

Well-cut diamonds react appropriately to different environments: Under diffused lighting you'll see white brightness. Poorly cut diamonds will show large dark areas and bow ties. Don't get your head too close or you'll create more dark areas by blocking the available light. Diffused light creates little to no dispersion.

Small intense point-source lighting, like the tiny halogen bulbs in an elevator's ceiling, are best at promoting dispersion and colored scintillation. Natural sunlight gives amazing surface color and sparkle, especially on a day with the bright sun high in the sky. One reason you see so many intense colors from a well-cut diamond in sunlight is physiological; your pupils dilate in bright conditions so more of the dispersed "fans" of light coming from the diamond are now clipped by your smaller pupil. A diamond cut with larger virtual facets to begin-with can be nearly-blinding. But do remember that the sun, while our world's brightest light source, only sub-tends light at one-half a degree over the entire hemisphere. This frequently means the inside of the diamond will be dark in bright sunlight, since it's looking for more sources in the sky but finding only one. If you filter the sunlight by standing under a leafy tree, or next to a pool of undulating water where light rays are broken up the diamond will still show amazing colored sparkle, and will have less internal darkness.

Household rooms differ: If your kitchen is painted in bright colors, has a high ceiling with point source lighting and shiny counters your diamond may sing in there. Kitchens using diffused lighting aren't as diamond friendly. Living rooms frequently have side table lighting which might be fine, but with diffusing shades on the lamps performance gets muted. Most master bathrooms are terrific for diamonds. There are usually single bulbs in a row over a long mirror or two - and sometimes with mirrors on adjacent walls - which can make well-cut diamonds explode. I swear my wife takes extra time in there while she's enjoying her bathroom diamond symphony.

If you want to see a great, diamond friendly indoor lighting scheme just visit any Tiffany & Company. In each room they calculate the size of the space, the traffic and even the specific product and what it "needs" to be at its best. The diamond rooms use neutral/bright colors and well-placed contrast surfaces (dark wood panels on wall displays, etc). They have recessed fluorescent lighting brightening both the ceiling and the floors to promote brightness. The have intense small spotlights shining from the ceiling and decorative fixtures over the counters with point-source lighting to promote dispersion/scintillation. Inside the case there are additional fiber-optic or LED pinpoint spots aimed at their pieces. They do all of this in an unobtrusive manner that is not in-your-face, feels natural (although it’s meticulously planned) and is extremely effective, especially for well-cut gemstones and precious metal jewelry.

 

[tguy2012]

John--

Thanks again for your expert response. See the shot I posted right before yours? That shot I guess would be considered diffused daylight--light is coming in from the window and the sun is on the other side of the house. Is that an appropriate level of brightness vs. contrast? I feel like the contrast is too dark--does that make sense? I certainly don't want the diamond to look opaque, but for some reason I thought the contrast would reflect SOME light--I might be completely wrong on that--I don't have much experience looking at diamonds by myself--only in the store where the experts set the stage.

 

[John P]

John--

Thanks again for your expert response. See the shot I posted right before yours? That shot I guess would be considered diffused daylight--light is coming in from the window and the sun is on the other side of the house. Is that an appropriate level of brightness vs. contrast? I feel like the contrast is too dark--does that make sense? I certainly don't want the diamond to look opaque, but for some reason I thought the contrast would reflect SOME light--I might be completely wrong on that--I don't have much experience looking at diamonds by myself--only in the store where the experts set the stage.

You're welcome.

The main pavilion facets are the bottom-most on the diamond, therefore they reflect-back what's above them. The black of the camera lens is what those facets are "seeing" in your diamond so the pavilion facets on that plane below are black. It looks like the diamond is slightly tilted, and it is possibly also "seeing" a window-frame above (running from 11:30 to 5:00). This is a guess on my part, as I don't know your setup.

Taking diamond photos is extremely difficult. The magnified photos you see from those with experience (like the one I have posted here as an example) are made in isolated light environments with macro-specific equipment, making sure tilt is reduced and the lens is distant or small enough to obstruct only about 30 degrees of the hemisphere.



As a general assessment I would say the elements in your photo are all in-line with all the data you posted. The more important question is - have you taken it on a mini world-tour of lighting, keeping it squeaky clean, and what do YOU think?

 

[John P]

Double post.

 

[tguy2012]

The more important question is - have you taken it on a mini world-tour of lighting, keeping it squeaky clean, and what do YOU think?

Good question...I'm not sure yet. I'm sure if I have unreasonably high expectations based on what I've seen with other diamonds (or what I thought I remember seeing) or if there is a problem with the stone. Kind of hard when there nothing at its side to compare to. I'm going to go to Tiffany now among some other local places and recalibrate my memory.

 

[tguy2012]

The more important question is - have you taken it on a mini world-tour of lighting, keeping it squeaky clean, and what do YOU think?

Good question...I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure if I have unreasonably high expectations based on what I've seen with other diamonds (or what I thought I remember seeing) or if there is a problem with the stone. Kind of hard when there nothing at its side to compare to. I'm going to go to Tiffany now among some other local places and recalibrate my memory.

 

[tguy2012]

The more important question is - have you taken it on a mini world-tour of lighting, keeping it squeaky clean, and what do YOU think?

Good question...I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure if I have unreasonably high expectations based on what I've seen with other diamonds (or what I thought I remember seeing) or if there is a problem with the stone. Kind of hard when there nothing at its side to compare to. I'm going to go to Tiffany now among some other local places and recalibrate my memory.

 

[tguy2012]

So my weekend trip to the B&M stores was fruitless. I thought I might find an absolute difference between the stones at Tiffany and mine--obviously the ones in the store looked amazing, but I'm still not sure if it was purely due to their lighting or actual difference in quality. I still feel like for some reason mine doesn't absolutely "glow" the way I expect it to. But again, I think that's my "impossible-to-satisfy side talking. Plus the lighting in my home isn't all that great. I haven't mustered up the courage to bring the loose stone outside yet to look at it in broad daylight. Wondering if I should bring my stone to a B&M to compare--what sort of resistance should I expect if I'm in the market for a setting only?

I decided to take this picture in hopes that someone would be able to tell something additional about the stone. It's in a sheath to block direct light, and is only picking up minimal ambient light. The obstructions at 1:00, 5:00 and 8:00 are prongs holding the stone in-place.

 

[John P]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you did not take your diamond with you on the trip to T&Co? If so you have no basis for comparison. No surprise their diamonds look amazing. The store is tailored to do that, and you’d need to set your diamond in their display or handle it in their designated showing spaces to make a comparison. I'd add that if you did compare there the differences would likely be extremely minute, as such environments are tailored to make all diamonds perform at their best. I'd much rather make comparisons in low-light environments - like a romantic restaurant or downtown Disney under the gas lamps - to see how a well-cut diamond holds its own.

I haven't mustered up the courage to bring the loose stone outside yet to look at it in broad daylight. Wondering if I should bring my stone to a B&M to compare--what sort of resistance should I expect if I'm in the market for a setting only?

It sounds like you’re wondering if your new sports car has great pickup and cornering, but you’re scared to take it out of the garage? Meanwhile you have gone to a racetrack and watched other cars buzz around – trying to imagine what yours would do if it were performing?

Prescription: Yes, you should take it outside. Yes, you should take it on a world tour of your favorite spaces. And you should take it to a B&M if you would like to compare it to others. People inherit or reset diamonds all the time. Tell the jeweler you have “come into this diamond” and are considering putting it into a setting. It's potential business for them. The worst someone can do is tell you they’re not interested in helping you.

If you want hard guided comparisons you could tell jewelers you have the diamond for a week to analyze and want to compare it to something in their store, but that sets up a different climate. It’s likely they will work to convince you to buy with them. There is also the possibility of sales-shenanigans such as a little nose grease ‘accidentally’ applied to yours in the comparison process so it dies next to theirs, or a “side by side” showing where yours happens to be in a dead spot in the lighting etc... But that’s my cynical side talking.

I cannot judge your “impossible-to-satisfy” side. I know my own though. I’ve had purchase-paralysis for years, on television and stereo components, living room furniture, even my gemlab equipment. No doubt I've left a swath of salespeople shaking their heads as I make the most minute, “nano-tech” distinctions. No problem with that, and hopefully my admitting it to them helps, but at some point (for me) I've come to realize I need to make a decision.

You took a nice photo, showing the expected contrast pattern. But no one can tell you anything more in this thread from data/photos - other than “ooh pretty.” You've done your homework. It really is up to your eyes now.

 

[04diamond<3]

I cannot judge your “impossible-to-satisfy” side. I know my own though. I’ve had purchase-paralysis for years, on television and stereo components, living room furniture, even my gemlab equipment. No doubt I've left a swath of salespeople shaking their heads as I make the most minute, “nano-tech” distinctions. No problem with that, and hopefully my admitting it to them helps, but at some point (for me) I've come to realize I need to make a decision.

You took a nice photo, showing the expected contrast pattern. But no one can tell you anything more in this thread from data/photos - other than “ooh pretty.” You've done your homework. It really is up to your eyes now.

Agree with everything John said, but more so with this part. You need to decide for YOU. The pictures you've taken look beautiful. Why are you being so critical? Just curious. If you take it by a window in day light and see how much white reflections you get, that'll tell you how good the return is...really you could do this in any lighting, but for someone new, I'd suggest doing it by a window to see how much white light you get. That'll tell you how bright the stone is. If it's bright and you get a lot of light return, it's a good stone. From what you've posted, I think it looks great. If you want to be more impressed with the stone, take it to a jeweler and look at it under their spot lighting...it will look amazing!!! From what you've been saying, it sounds like you need to see it in the best lighting (or most impressive), so that'd be my suggestion.

EDIT - to say that the first picture you took by the window looks good. It looks like you took it on an angle which is why the right part of it looks dark. If you face the whole stone towards the window head on, you'll see better light return (if it's well cut, which in MO, it is).