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wildcatmccane

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
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Hello professional diamond lovers :) Thanks for all the help while I have been lurking.

I am pretty much firmed up on a purchase and I would like to hear if I did at least all right...I know it is not perfect, and I gave some to get some..but please let me know. I am going to send the money tomorrow. It is reported back as eye clean.

I don''t know if its wrong to list where I got it from, please excuse me if it is. Its from bluenile...http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-ideal-cut-e-color-si1-clarity_LD01609162

Stock number: LD01609162
Price: $3,759
Bank wire price: $3,703
Price per carat: $4,177
Carat weight: 0.90
Cut: Ideal
Color: E
Clarity: SI1
Depth %: 62.6%
Table %: 58%
Symmetry: Very Good
Polish: Very Good
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 6.19 x 6.15 x 3.86 mm
 
Hi there, wildcatmccane, welcome to PS
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First thing is to make your link clickable so others can look easier.
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-ideal-cut-e-color-si1-clarity_LD01609162

This diamond has a very steep pavillion and will likely not perform as well as a diamond should. It will likely "leak" light--this is where incoming light reflects out the pavillion under the girdle, instead of back up through the crown to your eyes. Since you haven't finalized the purchase yet, I would recommend finding a diamond that is cut better--that is what will give the stone the sparkle and brilliance. If you have to give a little, make it on color, not cut quality. You are paying a premium for E color and the vast majority of people will not be able to distinguish an E from a G, even side by side.

Would you like some of us here to suggest some diamonds that are better cut? If so, are you open to other reputable vendors besides BN?
 
Yes. I would like help.
My understanding of it (very limited) is this is a bit big on the table and a bit deep. But not by much on either...

Can you help me to understand where I went wrong?

Thanks!

I appreciate the help. I know I am paying more for the E color instead of F and the ideal cut vs very good. But though its slightly out of specs, it seems just 'very' slightly...
 
The table is OK, it is the depth and more precisely the pavillion angle that is the problem. The pavillion facets are the main light reflecting surfaces of the diamond and need to be very precise in order to direct the light where you want it, back to the viewer. The crown angle also needs to be a good partner for the pavillion in order to achieve the best performance.

Think of it like the rearview mirror in your car at night. When the person behind you is in just the right spot, you are blinded by his headlights, but if you move the mirror very slightly, the light is redirected away from your eyes. The pavillion is the mirror and minor variations can cause big differences. With a 41.6 angle, most of the light will be going the wrong way--it is kind of crazy to think that a small variation can make such a big difference, but it is the case.

I have a Christmas party to attend, so don't have time to look right now, I'll see what I can find when I get home--I'm sure others will find you some great stones in the meantime.

Here are some good guidelines when looking for a well cut round. ("Borrowed" from Lorelei
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)

depth - 60 - 62%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

From expert John Pollard.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).
 
The diamond you chose was too deep - more than 61.8% is too much.
The deepness means that the stone will look slightly smaller than a true ideal cut.
Also, the deepness will mean that some light leaks out of the bottom of the stone. But some people prefer the look of lighter arrows against a dark area under the table.

The following picture shows an approximation of your stone on the left (with a darker area under the edge of the table, but brighter arrows under the table).
On the right is an approximation of a Tolkowsky-cut stone (with a lighter area under the table, except for the darker arrows). Crown 34.6, pavilion 40.8.

0 0 0 0 0 steepdeep v tolk.jpg
 
I'm perhaps one of the more vociferous when it comes to colour, but I think that you could drop that E colour down to F or even G to maybe attain the magic 1ct level.
Normally, I'd stop at F for a white-looking stone, but with the 1ct level within reach...........
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I'd bend to a G.
 
humm..well it sounds like i haven''t done well at all...I guess I need some help?
 
I don't mind that i am missing the 1 carat mark. I would like it in .90 or higher though.

F is fine for me too. Bluenile seems to be lacking an F in similar specs, which does make me wonder how bad my first pick is if its an Ideal and and E while I was looking for a Very good cut in an F.

This is another eye clean one I was looking at...So is this more in line with what I should be looking for?
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-very-good-cut-f-color-si1-clarity_LD01122115

I can't tell you how appreciative I am for the help
 
Date: 12/21/2009 6:20:55 PM
Author: wildcatmccane
humm..well it sounds like i haven''t done well at all...I guess I need some help?
Click to expand...

You selected a GIA Excellent cut stone.
There is controversy over GIA''s excellent cut grade and whether it is too loose.
The stone that you chose was what is known as "steep/deep". But some people prefer the look of steep/deep stones. However, the majority of people don''t. My OH likes the look of a 33/41 crown/pavilion angle combo with 60/60 table/depth. But most people won''t go for that combination, either.

Here''s what I said on a topic earlier tonight, regarding proportions:

I think that the best lookers have a 55-57 table. I also dislike more than one grade of variation in girdle thickness.
Setting the maximum acceptable depth at 61.8% (with a 55-57 table) seems to weed-out most of the "steep/deep" stones. Most steep/deep (35.5/41.2) with 55-57 tables, seem to be in the 62.0-62.5% range, with a few borderline stones (35.0/41.0) in the 61.9-62.0 range.

If you''re unable to view a diamond before purchasing, I''d suggest the following very strict parameters that will almost certainly weed-out the badly cut stones.

GIA certificate


Excellent cut


Excellent polish


Excellent symmetry


Medium girdle, or thin-medium, or medium-slightly thick. Don''t accept thin-slightly thick as the stone''s performance can suffer and cutters tricks can be hidden in a variable girdle


Table: 55-58%


Total depth: no more than 61.8%


Crown and pavilion angle: 34.5/40.8, or 35.0/40.8, or 35.0/40.6, or 34.0/41.0. Only accept one of those complementary angle sets.


-


It is possible to stray outside of those guidelines in some instances if you know the compromises that will result, but they are "very safe" - although nothing is 100% guaranteed and a good returns policy is essential.

 
Date: 12/21/2009 6:24:39 PM
Author: wildcatmccane
I don''t mind that i am missing the 1 carat mark. I would like it in .90 or higher though.

F is fine for me too. Bluenile seems to be lacking an F in similar specs, which does make me wonder how bad my first pick is if its an Ideal and and E while I was looking for a Very good cut in an F.

This is another eye clean one I was looking at...So is this more in line with what I should be looking for?
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-very-good-cut-f-color-si1-clarity_LD01122115

I can''t tell you how appreciative I am for the help
Click to expand...
The numbers seem very good. But I can''t - at the moment - see why GIA didn''t give it an Excellent cut grade. Be wary of such stones.
 
Reported eye clean...

But lots of inclusions in the report...Girdle is .5% larger (4.5), table is 59%...

I have been excel sheeting about 25 different diamonds for a month. I don't mean to say I am done shopping. But I am discouraged to learn I have been doing it wrong :)

of the two, is the second the better? Should I just scrap them both and keep looking. I thought I was settled on the first. Very disappointing.

I changed the search criteria and I am getting nothing. I know that just means my price range isn't right, but I am willing to give a little...


Thanks everyone

Here is a .87
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-ideal-cut-e-color-si1-clarity_LD01609144

Hate to drop below .90 Just makes me feel bad.
 
http://img.bluenile.com/is/image/certs/?src={/2080/GIA2111363577_zoom.jpeg}&fmt=jpg
Is this one better? I hate this .87 business. Want to stay in .90 but...
 
thank you my friend for those websites. Unfortunately to me, other then the difference between size and color, I can not visually see differences. I thought the above picture was prettier with the diamond I selected then the 'perfect one' Took me a second to see why it wasn't.

Oops, spoke too soon. That was a great website....
 
The 35.0 crown and 41.0 pavilion sit right on the egde of high-end performance.
Literally, cutting it a bit fine.
Small rounding-off errors could make quite a difference.
If buying an unseen stone, I'd prefer to go for one of the angle pairings I mentioned earlier.

Dropping colour to F would get you back up above 0.9ct. Dropping polish to VG would also have negligible visible effect and give more ability to stay above 0.9ct.
 
I notice all of the stones are from Blue Nile. Are you set on using that vendor or are you willing to also look at some others?
 
Honestly, bluenile has a lot of visual features and searching that others don't.

I tried some others and found them not as good...

I noticed the difference between F and G color unfortunately. It was actually noticeable by a bit. (went to a B&M store)thought I do admit i might not notice once set.

I literally caught another (jamesallen) lying to me. 4 out of 10 diamonds I was looking at were not advertised correctly according to the GIA. Differences in 2-3 grades differences in color and cut. When I pointed this out, it wasn't pretty :)
 
Date: 12/21/2009 7:50:05 PM
Author: wildcatmccane
Honestly, bluenile has a lot of visual features and searching that others don''t.

I tried some others and found them not as good...

I noticed the difference between F and G color unfortunately. It was actually noticeable by a bit. (went to a B&M store)thought I do admit i might not notice once set.

I literally caught another (jamesallen) lying to me. 4 out of 10 diamonds I was looking at were not advertised correctly according to the GIA. Differences in 2-3 grades differences in color and cut. When I pointed this out, it wasn''t pretty :)
Click to expand...
What do you mean?
 
I was looking at 10 diamonds. 4 of them where listed at higher (much more) specs than the GIA report. Color, cut and clarity were misrepresented.

Example. Ideal cut on jamesallen turned out to be good GIA report cut. Here I will even find that specific diamond. JamesAllen.com item 1235425 is listed as Ideal right? Request the GIA and its Good. I asked and they said they do their own grading. That own grading raised it 2 grades.
 
out of interest do you still have the report and the numbers from it to plug into the HCA?

I am not an expert on round brilliants but understand that GIA sometimes lets poorer stones slide by into the 'ideal' category. I'm not sure if it works the other way too but maybe one of the experts here could fill us in. E.g. will GIA sometimes penalize a stone unfairly for something not too serious?


Edit: I just reread and you also mention that colour and clarity were off too. There is no reason a vendor should challenge a GIA colour or clarity grade imo. That seems very iffy.
 
I don''t mean to put a business down. It was the response that I got from them that had me curious. I had responses for 2 hours straight ever 2 minutes when I asked a question and then a day later I got an answer of why they were different specs. And not friendly either.

But I digress, I wish it would have worked out. They are cheaper, but not really because their measures are equal to a lower diamond.

That pricescope link that was mentioned earlier is helping. I don''t plan to become an expert and am getting to my wits end :) so many choices :)

.87 isn''t that much different i know then a .90... I wonder...
 
Perhaps someone from JA will come and speak to this issue... but this is a vendor with an excellent reuptation on PS so I doubt they were lying in the sense that you think they were. I suspect it is very possible that they are giving it their own grade based on the proportions of the cut, whereas it could have missed GIA excellent because of polish or symmetry, issues that have nothing to do with light performance.

If you post the GIA number of the diamond you are giving an an example of misrepresentation we can tell you if our hunch is correct.

Here are some contenders. These are all perfectly cut. I know you want t oget above .90, but really something has to give and I wouldn''t suggest cut.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6581/

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-2231006.htm

You can call Bran Gavin Diamonds about this, their website is not up yet:

AGS-1040363310029 Brian Gavin H&A 0.834 F VS2 56.7 61.5 6.05 6.06 3.72 $4,195.00
 
I have found bluenile''s prices consistently higher than some of the other PS vendors. You should be able to hit the 0.9 mark by using another vendor.
 
What is your budget and your desired specs.. then we can really help you out!
 
Date: 12/21/2009 8:53:23 PM
Author: hihowareyou
out of interest do you still have the report and the numbers from it to plug into the HCA?

I am not an expert on round brilliants but understand that GIA sometimes lets poorer stones slide by into the ''ideal'' category. I''m not sure if it works the other way too but maybe one of the experts here could fill us in. E.g. will GIA sometimes penalize a stone unfairly for something not too serious?


Edit: I just reread and you also mention that colour and clarity were off too. There is no reason a vendor should challenge a GIA colour or clarity grade imo. That seems very iffy.
Click to expand...
Brillianteering is the first thing that comes to mind?


Changing colour and clarity is very strange, and I do think you should email JA about those specific examples so they can fix them - I''m pretty sure that''s a problem on the website''s part, and they''d want to know about it!


Nowhere do they state that their cut grades match GIA''s so this is not misinterpreting anything. This particular stone must have had some redeeming virtue that, while outside GIAs cut bounds, still makes for a pretty stone - I''d prefer a GIA good marked down for an overly thick girdle to a leaky GIA Ex, for example.
 
Yes, that would be great to get help. I am not sold on bluenile, but if a 100 dollars or less is the price to see everything accurately I will take it. But love saving money too :)

I would like a .90 (no less if possible), SI1, F color (no G), cut very good. 3700 range, less better of course.
 
Wow, this has progressed since I left.

wildcat, if I may address a couple of points.

F vs G--were you looking at well cut GIA or AGS graded stones when you saw the difference? Many times B&M stores carry diamonds graded by IGI, EGL or other "lesser" labs that are not as strict with their grading. There have been many times that diamonds with reports from these labs have come back with color grades two or more lower when evaluated by GIA. Also, a poorly cut stone shows color much more than one that is well cut.

Re: James Allen having a stone as "Ideal" when GIA rates it as good. Every vendor is free to have their own definition of Ideal. What happens is that the vendors set up certain parameters for ease of searching, usually this is just table and depth, because of the variation of grading amoung the different labs. You will find the reverse, also--diamonds graded Excellent by GIA being found in the Very Good section of a vendor''s inventory. Since GIA doesn''t use Ideal as a cut grade (Excellent is their highest), then technically BN or anyone else reporting a GIA stone as Ideal is "lying" by your definition--Ideal would only be applicable to diamonds submitted to AGS. Forget about cut grade terminology and just try to find a diamond that will perform well.

Now, if you want to stick to F or higher and prefer not to purchase from James Allen, that is your choice and we will try to find some diamonds for you from other vendors. I just think you are really limiting your selection.

If I may ask, where are you located? Maybe there is a quality vendor near you that can help.
 
Date: 12/21/2009 9:20:09 PM
Author: wildcatmccane
Yes, that would be great to get help. I am not sold on bluenile, but if a 100 dollars or less is the price to see everything accurately I will take it. But love saving money too :)

I would like a .90 (no less if possible), SI1, F color (no G), cut very good. 3700 range, less better of course.
Click to expand...
It ain't gonna happen my friend
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An ideally cut diamond with those specs is about a thousand dollars more than you want to spend. So what are you going to sacrifice? I know it is tempting to sacrifice cut, but I would really urge you not to.

I posted some above that are a little smaller than you want.

Here is an SI2, but it stretches your budget

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/Whiteflash-ACA-cut-diamond-2141786.htm I bet this one is pretty clean based on the image.

OK, maybe you can do it in your budget. I like this one at Excel diamonds, but you need to ask for an ideal scope image of the diamond. Call and ask for Judah, he is a PS regular.

http://www.exceldiamonds.com/Loose_Round_Diamond-143/Loose_Round_0.9_Carat_F_Color_SI1_Clarity_diamond-393232.html
 
I will agree with ya on that different names for the GIA ratings. However, BN for example (ideal) is always GIA excellent cut.
Jamesallen however shows GIA as the report, yet their names Ideal and ideal don''t match. if you click on BN cut it tells you that BN uses ideal in place of excellent. On JamesAllen it just talks about the GIA scale. So what I meant by lying I would relabel as completely trying to mislead untrained others.

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-1-carat-or-less-very-good-cut-f-color-si1-clarity_LD01122115
3,500 comes back with a 2.1 on the pricescope cut advisor. the .87 comes back as a 2.4. Both show very good in both categories.

So even labeled excellent cut, my first choice (an E ideal) is coming back lower then very good cuts....Very interesting.
 
The HCA is a dichotomous scale, not continuous. Anything less than 2 is worth considering, anything higher would technically be rejected. So all you can really conclude is that all three of the diamond you have considered are not ideal cuts.
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ETA An ideal scope image of a diamond trumps the HCA. So it is possible that those diamonds you are looking at are good, but since you cannot get images from BN you wouldn't know until the diamond arrived in your hands.
 
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