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Near H&A vs true H&A light performance worth it?

cut_apprentice

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
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17
Disregarding the sentimental value of having a true H&A and looking at it from a pure light performance perspective - is there a discernible real world difference in any lighting condition or angles?

Here are the H&A of two diamonds in consideration below for an engagement ring. The first one has a H&A-like pattern but seems a bit muddled. The second one looks as good as you can get.

Near H&A - 1.06 G VS1 - $7820:
http://i.imgur.com/jWm7SKP.png
http://i.imgur.com/DY5K3MW.png

True H&A - 1.12 G VS1 - $11,775:
http://i.imgur.com/EHoq6AH.png
http://i.imgur.com/VoAp3Zj.png

For the sake of argument, lets say that all the measurements (CA, PA, LGH, etc) and idealscopes/ASETs match up and the only difference are the H&A images. In terms of brilliance, fire, scintillation, and virtual faceting in the real world, would there be a difference between the two? And to what degree is that difference?

Thanks for any advice it is much appreciated.
 
Without looking at the stone's specs and any details, and your assumptions that all the assets, and everything else was the same, I would not go for the H&A given the price difference. I would spend the difference on a bigger stone. ;)
 
LLJsmom|1416177987|3784834 said:
Without looking at the stone's specs and any details, and your assumptions that all the assets, and everything else was the same, I would not go for the H&A given the price difference. I would spend the difference on a bigger stone. ;)

agreed.

generally there is a reason for such a big price difference tho ... u generally get what u pay for with diamonds.
 
Thanks for the replies! I'm trying to learn about the various aspects outside of the 4c's so I thought it would be best to take as many variables out of the equation as possible. These two stones most likely won't be my final choices, but two examples for me to delve into this particular aspect of cut.

That being said, here are the direct links to them.

Near H&A - GIA G VS1 - 35/40.8 CA/PA - 56/62.1 T/D:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...1,06-Carat-G-Color-VS1-Clarity-Diamond-9GH8H3

True H&A - AGS G VS1 - 34.7/40.8 CA/PA - 55.7/61.3 T/D:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2336870.htm

They are both in and around the super ideal range (its difficult to be sure since GIA rounds their numbers on the first diamond -- so the 35 degree CA could actually be anywhere between 34.76 - 35.24 degrees if I understand their system correctly). The difference in LGH can be ignored since I would be fine with either. I'd also disregard any value-add services each vendor might provide as this is more a critique on the diamonds themselves.

Given this new information, would the preference still be for the first stone, except to go bigger in size? Also, taking price out of the equation, could you comment on what the visual difference between the two would be like in the real world? Thanks again!
 
i cant quiet tell about the visual differences etc, since im not an expert, but to me the price difference seems pretty insane considering they are equal in color and clarity, and pretty close in size and cut ( in my opinion at least).
Id definately go for the cheaper one since its pretty much HALF the price for a pretty similar stone.

EDIT: Keep in mind, this is my personal preference, im not saying that this is the way to go here.
 
Looking around, I'm consistently seeing $2K - $3K premium for H&A. I think in general most knowledgable folks would say that a IF is not worth it over a VS1 for example since they both will appear the same to the naked eye. Perhaps the same could be said about D color vs F or G.

BUT -- since cut is king, what I'm trying to figure out is if True H&A vs Near H&A is analogous to an IF vs VS1. Or is it more drastic?

Since H&A have such a premium nowadays, I'd love to understand the performance differences, because if the difference is more akin to IF vs SI2 - then all of the sudden, $2K - $3K premium would be worth it.
 
cut_apprentice|1416179147|3784850 said:
Thanks for the replies! I'm trying to learn about the various aspects outside of the 4c's so I thought it would be best to take as many variables out of the equation as possible. These two stones most likely won't be my final choices, but two examples for me to delve into this particular aspect of cut.

That being said, here are the direct links to them.

Near H&A - GIA G VS1 - 35/40.8 CA/PA - 56/62.1 T/D:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...1,06-Carat-G-Color-VS1-Clarity-Diamond-9GH8H3

True H&A - AGS G VS1 - 34.7/40.8 CA/PA - 55.7/61.3 T/D:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2336870.htm

They are both in and around the super ideal range (its difficult to be sure since GIA rounds their numbers on the first diamond -- so the 35 degree CA could actually be anywhere between 34.76 - 35.24 degrees if I understand their system correctly). The difference in LGH can be ignored since I would be fine with either. I'd also disregard any value-add services each vendor might provide as this is more a critique on the diamonds themselves.

Given this new information, would the preference still be for the first stone, except to go bigger in size? Also, taking price out of the equation, could you comment on what the visual difference between the two would be like in the real world? Thanks again!

I wish you would not have posted the links. Now we vendors can not weigh in on which diamond we like and why. I was already formulating a reply in my mind about how one would be crisper and brighter with larger flashes of white and colored light than the other because of the better cutting.

I will tell you this.

In my opinion, if you got both of these diamonds sent to a jeweler who put them on a slotted tray for you, who told you NOTHING about either diamond, especially which was which, and let you pick the more attractive one, I think I know which one 9 out of ten people would select without any coaching or information from anything other than your eyes. It costs more to cut a diamond properly and the visual results are worth the extra expense.

If in the opinion of the moderator I have said too much given that we now know where the diamonds come from, please remove my post.

Wink
 
Hi Wink, thank you very much for your response -- I wish I hadn't posted the links either! But rest assured you definitely didn't "cost a sale" for one vendor or another, I simply picked two stones at random for this discussion.

I hope the moderator will allow the post, as not much useful information is available on the web regarding this decision point, and as H&A is becoming more and more mainstream, I think this discussion could benefit others as well.

You mentioned that in general, True H&A will be crisper and brighter with broader flashes of light. Since 9/10 people in your opinion would pick out the the true H&A immediately, the difference seems more akin to the difference between a VS1 vs an non-eye clean SI2 correct?
 
cut_apprentice|1416185364|3784892 said:
Hi Wink, thank you very much for your response -- I wish I hadn't posted the links either! But rest assured you definitely didn't "cost a sale" for one vendor or another, I simply picked two stones at random for this discussion.

I hope the moderator will allow the post, as not much useful information is available on the web regarding this decision point, and as H&A is becoming more and more mainstream, I think this discussion could benefit others as well.

You mentioned that in general, True H&A will be crisper and brighter with broader flashes of light. Since 9/10 people in your opinion would pick out the the true H&A immediately, the difference seems more akin to the difference between a VS1 vs an non-eye clean SI2 correct?

Im not wink, obviously, and I don't have near as much experience. But no., I do not believe the difference would be akin to an eye clean vs non eye clean stone.

Im trying to find the thread im thinking of, but there were many opinions on both sides.... ill be back if I find it.

ETA: I don't think this was the link im thinking of, but very useful

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-vs-non-h-a-is-there-a-visual-difference.152720/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/h-a-vs-non-h-a-is-there-a-visual-difference.152720/[/URL]
 
Also, I know that diamond characteristics can never be made in a vacuum since each character plays off one another.

So to LLJsmom's point -- take the $2-3K premium and put it towards size instead.

Looking at prices, I think in general it seems like $2-3K can buy you an additional .2 - .3 cts in weight. Lets also say that spread is comparable relatively for both stones.

Would the same 9 out of 10 folks still pick a 1.0 ct true H&A over a 1.3 ct near H&A? Bigger size also means more light and bigger flashes too because the facets are larger by default correct? The question is, does the bigger size overcome the lack in light performance due to non perfect H&A?

Hi Neil, thanks for taking the time to find that thread - I really appreciate it.
 
cut_apprentice|1416186628|3784898 said:
Also, I know that diamond characteristics can never be made in a vacuum since each character plays off one another.

So to LLJsmom's point -- take the $2-3K premium and put it towards size instead.


Looking at prices, I think in general it seems like $2-3K can buy you an additional .2 - .3 cts in weight. Lets also say that spread is comparable relatively for both stones.

Would the same 9 out of 10 folks still pick a 1.0 ct true H&A over a 1.3 ct near H&A? Bigger size also means more light and bigger flashes too because the facets are larger by default correct? The question is, does the bigger size overcome the lack in light performance due to non perfect H&A?

Hi Neil, thanks for taking the time to find that thread - I really appreciate it.

I agree with that. The larger the stones the larger the facets- and I think because of that the visual impact of a bigger non H&A is more than a smaller H&A.

Its a game of compromises for everyone, you just have to figure out what works for you...
 
Thanks Neil, I'm reading through the other threads and its very informative.
 
Is it worth it?

For me the answer was yes because I wanted the best cut diamond that I could afford, period.
And that is why I chose to order a Custom Cut-to-Order Crafted by Infinity Diamond from Wink and HPD.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ordered-a-custom-crafted-by-infinity-diamond.206471/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ordered-a-custom-crafted-by-infinity-diamond.206471/[/URL]

You might ask the owners of Whiteflash ACA diamonds the same question. Why did they choose their ACA diamond over the less expensive ES line? Why did GOG "Superior" diamond owners chose their diamond over the less expensive "Premium" line, or why do some people choose BGD's "Signature" diamonds. Answer, because to them Cut is KING !!! Each one of them could have purchased a larger diamond with lesser cut, but all chose to buy the best cut they could afford with all the light performance advantages that they provide.

Oh, and btw, when you get into the 2 ct. range for "F" color diamonds, it is more than $2 - 3K extra, and yet it was still worth it to me.

Now, will I carry a $3K handbag around? Although other PS ladies do, it is not worth it to me.

We all have compromises to make, I compromised on clarity a bit, but I will not compromise on CUT.
 
awesome process with CBI! I can't wait to see the results =)
 
The H&A stone was over 1.1 cts where there'd be a little price jump over a 1.06. The H&A stone is 6.7mm versus 6.5mm for the other. Always compare the diameter of any stones you are looking at. In addition, you quoted the full credit card price for the H&A stone versus the cash price on the other making the difference look a little greater than it was. Dropping to H VS2, you can get a 1.18 H&A stone for $8981 at close to 6.8mm. Or a 1.11 G VS2 for $9803.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3195401.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3114538.htm

I have had both H&A and near H&A, and yes, I could tell the difference. That's why my studs are ACAs. I would definitely prefer H&A for a ring if I had a modern round brilliant.
 
Thank you very much for you input! Its great to hear from someone who's seen both side by side.
 
cut_apprentice|1416175181|3784804 said:
Disregarding the sentimental value of having a true H&A and looking at it from a pure light performance perspective - is there a discernible real world difference in any lighting condition or angles?

Here are the H&A of two diamonds in consideration below for an engagement ring. The first one has a H&A-like pattern but seems a bit muddled. The second one looks as good as you can get.

Near H&A - 1.06 G VS1 - $7820:
http://i.imgur.com/jWm7SKP.png
http://i.imgur.com/DY5K3MW.png

True H&A - 1.12 G VS1 - $11,775:
http://i.imgur.com/EHoq6AH.png
http://i.imgur.com/VoAp3Zj.png

For the sake of argument, lets say that all the measurements (CA, PA, LGH, etc) and idealscopes/ASETs match up and the only difference are the H&A images. In terms of brilliance, fire, scintillation, and virtual faceting in the real world, would there be a difference between the two? And to what degree is that difference?

Thanks for any advice it is much appreciated.

This is a very on point question and you got two diamonds that were close in specs but with some differences.
The 1.06 has 62.1% depth the other 61.3% so the faceup size which accounts for spread and weight will be different. The faceup size of these is 6.7mm versus 6.53 a 0.17mm which is non negligible.

Your considered tradeoff is size versus optical symmetry or small differences in cut. Its not a steep deep versus a tolk round comparison , the cut on both are Excellent. The cut differences would be very nuanced and I would expect more standard customers to choose the size difference over the slight differences in cut.

I think if you wanted to make this comparison more worthwhile I would prefer choosing similarly priced diamonds. Either choose both diamonds around the ~11.5k mark or both at ~8k.

I do encourage you to buy both(H&A and near H&A) if you can, or send them to an appraiser near you(some vendors let you do this prior to purchase) for viewing side by side, the only way you can really answer this question is with your eyes with stones in front of you.

A good appraiser can present the two diamonds to you in person for viewing and even take side by side images. I'm sure this community would be very interested in this comparison and if you are willing to report your findings and choice.

I should also mention that if you want to be value conscious you may consider eye clean but lower clarity, if you do so for the same budget you can get another ~0.3mm of size dropping from VS1 to an eye clean SI1.
 
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