Nastiest thing I have seen in a while (Grammy's)

[chemgirl]

What you said reminded me of a story published a few years back of a stripper who decided to put a pole in front of her yard and do her morning “practice”.

It’s just inappropriate.

Sure, stripping in your front yard isn’t appropriate (if she was fully clothed than it was just exercise!). Performing on a television program that had a warning about mature content isn’t awful.

The real debate should be with the awards ceremony organizers. Should they have made the event appropriate for children or not?

My argument is that men make sexualized music all of the time. The NIN song I referred to was a guy singing about his genitals and bodily fluids. It’s from the 90’s.

It’s not really fair to say the artist is gross. She’s doing her thing and it’s not wrong IMHO. If the awards show wants to be child appropriate then they might want to have a few more rules. The act in itself isn’t on the same scale as being racist or rapey or any of the other examples of censorship.

 

[OboeGal]

Sure, stripping in your front yard isn’t appropriate (if she was fully clothed than it was just exercise!). Performing on a television program that had a warning about mature content isn’t awful.

The real debate should be with the awards ceremony organizers. Should they have made the event appropriate for children or not?

My argument is that men make sexualized music all of the time. The NIN song I referred to was a guy singing about his genitals and bodily fluids. It’s from the 90’s.

It’s not really fair to say the artist is gross. She’s doing her thing and it’s not wrong IMHO. If the awards show wants to be child appropriate then they might want to have a few more rules. The act in itself isn’t on the same scale as being racist or rapey or any of the other examples of censorship.

Heck, we could go back to the 70s with The Lemon Song from Led Zeppelin as far as men singing about their parts and fluids, and good ol' Robert Plant acting stuff out on stage.

 

[chemgirl]

So, we are supposed to support a live TV performance of a woman having sex with a pole as "art" and use that as a teaching opportunity for children. But, a few cartoons depicting the way people really did talk and how it was right or wrong - we are supposed to erase history instead of using it as a teaching opportunity with our children?

Makes no sense

Was she being penetrated by the pole? Or was she just dancing .

Nobody is saying erase history. Going forward the companies listed above are choosing not to perpetuate negative behaviour. You can still watch old episodes or read previously printed books (Google how De. Seuss depicts black people. It is seriously horrific).

 

[OboeGal]

So, we are supposed to support a live TV performance of a woman having sex with a pole as "art" and use that as a teaching opportunity for children. But, a few cartoons depicting the way people really did talk and how it was right or wrong - we are supposed to erase history instead of using it as a teaching opportunity with our children?

Makes no sense

As @chemgirl stated - no one is "erasing history." You can still read the books or see old Looney Toons episodes or look for an old Mr. Potato Head or Mrs. Potato Head. Brands choose all the time, for all sorts of reasons, to discontinue printing books or discontinue products or characters - that's not censorship.

The Dr. Seuss books had really outdated and offensive racial stereotypes in books specifically targeted for children. (Seriously - black people were depicted as barefooted ape-like beings.) Pepe LePew forces himself on female characters - and that is the entirety of his character - as a plot device for humor in cartoons specifically targeted to children. On the Grammys - a TV program which is not specifically targeted to kids, and which any parent who's ever watched before should be able to identify as not "kid viewing" - Cardi B performed what has been, for whatever reasons, a commercially very successful piece for her in which she discusses in raunchy terms, and acts out, consensual sex using terms and in a manner that probably pretty accurately depicts what goes on in a whole lot of bedrooms of perfectly healthy couples across the country. How are you continuing to see these things as all equivalent? How, as a culture, are so many still more upset that a woman was raunchy about consensual sex on a TV show intended for adults that kids might see, than about blatant racism and sexual assault played for humor in media aimed specifically at kids?

 

[OreoRosies86]

Didn’t Dr. Seuss’s estate pull the books? I’ve been seeing people get all upset like people have cancelled Cindy Lou Who or something, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how it went down

Didn’t we all have to read Oedipus in high school? Incest, Ancient Greek style. I don’t remember a ton of pearl clutching...

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Bruce?
There are a zillion Bruces.

Bruce Who?

Kenny ....
I know you know who

Bruce has a couple of R18 references in songs.
Reno about a man thinking about a lost love while having sex with a prostitute
An unreleased song pilgrim in the temple of love - a Christmas song that features santa getting a 'Divine Brown' in a bar's car park and red headed woman he wrote about his wife that documents cunnilingus - interestingly that one is from the 90s
(that's her on stage with him)

 

[Buttercookies]

Sure, stripping in your front yard isn’t appropriate (if she was fully clothed than it was just exercise!).

I give up.

 

[chemgirl]

I give up.

I sincerely don’t understand what’s inappropriate if she’s not actually stripping.

My gym has pole and belly dancing class (pole is a major core workout). Men and women put on these sparkly skirt things and shake their hips all over the place. When the gym shut down due to covid the classes were moved to a nearby park. A class of 40 people belly dancing amidst families having picnics. Nobody was scandalized. It didn’t make the news.

The gym even has a daycare with large windows so children have been exposed to these classes for years. Nobody makes a big deal about it.

So what’s the issue with your story? Is it because of the woman’s job? If so that’s just sad.

Funny thing is I don’t even like Cardi B or the song in question. I just find it offensive when women are referred to as nasty.

 

[HollyJane]

I sincerely don’t understand what’s inappropriate if she’s not actually stripping.

My gym has pole and belly dancing class (pole is a major core workout). Men and women put on these sparkly skirt things and shake their hips all over the place. When the gym shut down due to covid the classes were moved to a nearby park. A class of 40 people belly dancing amidst families having picnics. Nobody was scandalized. It didn’t make the news.

The gym even has a daycare with large windows so children have been exposed to these classes for years. Nobody makes a big deal about it.

So what’s the issue with your story? Is it because of the woman’s job? If so that’s just sad.

Funny thing is I don’t even like Cardi B or the song in question. I just find it offensive when women are referred to as nasty.

But, they probably aren't letting people in class have sex or simulate having sex with pole (eg masturbate). So, sorry - not a good comparison.

Also, she refers to her own self as nasty. A lot of these women do in WAP. They say it enough, people here it will get comfortable with using it, and here we go again perpetuating. You can't have it one way and not another.

 

[chemgirl]

But, they probably aren't letting people in class have sex or simulate having sex with pole (eg masturbate). So, sorry - not a good comparison.

People in the class are encouraged to “feel themselves”, pop out their butts, “love that pole” lol.

@Buttercookies wrote about a stripper who practiced on a pole in her yard. Sounds pretty similar to the classes tbh. It’s pretty disturbing that the local news would come out and shame a woman because of her job.

Like I said above, I find it offensive when people shame women for their sexuality. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to watch it.

 

[autumngems]

So, we are supposed to support a live TV performance of a woman having sex with a pole as "art" and use that as a teaching opportunity for children. But, a few cartoons depicting the way people really did talk and how it was right or wrong - we are supposed to erase history instead of using it as a teaching opportunity with our children?

Makes no sense

I was just looking at a few of Dr. Seuss books online that are listed as bad and I didn't see anything, did I miss something?

 

[chemgirl]

I was just looking at a few of Dr. Seuss books online that are listed as bad and I didn't see anything, did I miss something?

Look at pictures of how the books portray black and Asian people. They’re clearly racist.

 

[HollyJane]

People in the class are encouraged to “feel themselves”, pop out their butts, “love that pole” lol.

@Buttercookies wrote about a stripper who practiced on a pole in her yard. Sounds pretty similar to the classes tbh. It’s pretty disturbing that the local news would come out and shame a woman because of her job.

Like I said above, I find it offensive when people shame women for their sexuality. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to watch it.

I don't know what pole dancing class you took, but...there are rules for behavior, even in those classes and even in strip clubs.

I'm as sex positive as a person can be, but what WAP does is NOT. They shame their own selves. And singing about what they do is NOT sex positive.

 

[HollyJane]

I was just looking at a few of Dr. Seuss books online that are listed as bad and I didn't see anything, did I miss something?

Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head was made into Him/Her...because marriage is bad. But fking a pole on TV is good, treating each and sex like dirt and bragging about getting over on someone is awesome. That's what a fraction of society would like your children to grow up believing. And this fraction is very vocal.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the entire point about being sex positive and feminist etc is that it’s your choice to do whatever you want in the bedroom? I mean if your choice involves chains and whips, you do you. No act is wrong or degrading in and off itself. Women are sexualised no matter what they do, female rappers even more so. I may not personally WANT to have sex for money or be a sugar baby, but that doesn’t mean that a woman who does it out of her own choice (and not compulsion) is doing anything wrong or shameful. Let people be people and do what they like. I may not like the song - I don’t really like rap as a genre - but that doesn’t mean other people don’t identify with it, don’t find it empowering, don’t consider it art. I also find most country music annoying to listen to but that doesn’t make country music “not art”.

Back to the Grammys - it was a controversial choice of performance sure, but that’s on the organisers, not on the performers.

 

[autumngems]

Look at pictures of how the books portray black and Asian people. They’re clearly racist.

Will look again, I didn't see any

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head was made into Him/Her...because marriage is bad. But fking a pole on TV is good, treating each and sex like dirt and bragging about getting over on someone is awesome. That's what a fraction of society would like your children to grow up believing. And this fraction is very vocal.

Also, Mr and Mrs Potato Head weren’t made into anything, the line is being renamed as “Potato Head” because the Mr Potato Head line also contained the toys Mrs Potato Head and Sister Yam. Going forward the Mr Potato Head toy will still be available...

 

[OreoRosies86]

Hasbro changed the BRAND to Potato Heads because “marriage is bad”? Holy false equivalence, Batman. I didn’t realize that a toy company making an effort to be more gender inclusive was an attack on marriage. Is this a national emergency? Are they going to take Christmas away too? My god the horror!

 

[HollyJane]

Hasbro changed the BRAND to Potato Heads because “marriage is bad”? Holy false equivalence, Batman. I didn’t realize that a toy company making an effort to be more gender inclusive was an attack on marriage. Is this a national emergency? Are they going to take Christmas away too? My god the horror!

Gender inclusive? Lol. They already had male and female potato heads, and a child can put them together in any combination they want. What do think I did with Ken and GI Joe, and Barbi and her friends, and all of them together. Lol

I mean, is this the kind of thing we need to spend time and money on - degenderizing a toy?

And, yeah, there has already been a movement to take away Christmas. And I seem to remember a pretty big movement in the past to take away Judaism... I'll give you a hint. There was a war...

 

[OreoRosies86]

Gender inclusive? Lol. They already had male and female potato heads, and a child can put them together in any combination they want. What do think I did with Ken and GI Joe, and Barbi and her friends, and all of them together. Lol

I mean, is this the kind of thing we need to spend time and money on - degenderizing a toy?

And, yeah, there has already been a movement to take away Christmas. And I seem to remember a pretty big movement in the past to take away Judaism...

I’m sorry you seem to be threatened by gender equality, religious freedom/freedom from religion, and people who identify as non binary. It must be exhausting to worry about things that have literally no effect on your life. I hope you feel better soon!

 

[OreoRosies86]

I’ll give you a hint too: Hitler attempted to wipe out an entire group of people because he felt threatened by them. Now let’s connect the dots...

Maybe I’m being over dramatic. I mean it’s not as if anyone ever ran around murdering gay or trans people, denying them jobs or healthcare...

 

[HollyJane]

I’m sorry you seem to be threatened by gender equality, religious freedom/freedom from religion, and people who identify as non binary. It must be exhausting to worry about things that have literally no effect on your life. I hope you feel better soon!

Lol. I'm not the one spending time and money on degenderizing toys.

 

[Jambalaya]

I've just watched the Grammy performance to see what all the fuss is about. Whoa, it's explicit! I watched it with a smile on my face, though. I think they looked quite ridiculous, and I felt a little embarrassed for them, but I think they should be allowed to express themselves with this music and performance if they want. I don't want to go back to more repressed times.

I don't like the song's lyrics, but I quite like the beat. I think the whole thing is in quite bad taste, but I support people's right to make bad-taste music and performance art if they so wish! It's only a representation of sex in a dance with all body parts covered, and the women weren't actually rubbing vaginas with the scissoring - it was only a representation of scissoring, not actual scissoring. There were plenty of crotches getting close in certain scenes of Dirty Dancing, I seem to remember!

I wouldn't be caught dead listening to this song or dancing like that, but I'm glad we live in an open society where others can do so if they wish.

My private opinion is, who on earth would want to embarrass themselves like that though!

 

[HollyJane]

I’ll give you a hint too: Hitler attempted to wipe out an entire group of people because he felt threatened by them. Now let’s connect the dots...

Maybe I’m being over dramatic. I mean it’s not as if anyone ever ran around murdering gay or trans people, denying them jobs or healthcare...

Comparing the HOLOCAUST to....ohhhhhh...

We know how you really feel now! You just outed yourself to what a bigot you are!

 

[OreoRosies86]

Lol. I'm not the one spending time and money on degenderizing toys.

Right, that would be Hasbro

Comparing the HOLOCAUST to....ohhhhhh...

We know how you really feel now! You just outed yourself to what a bigot you are!

Ohhhh ruby, what am I going to do with you

 

[chemgirl]

Comparing the HOLOCAUST to....ohhhhhh...

We know how you really feel now! You just outed yourself to what a bigot you are!

With 3M people watching Tucker Carlson every night we’re on a path to repeat history.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I am kind of torn. I do think it is a parent's and family's responsibility to help children understand what is reality and what is fantasy. Unfortunately, there are kids growing up who do not have responsible adults to guide them. There is IMHO never going to be sex without responsibility and perhaps that is what bothers me when artists express sexuality without expressing the potential consequences/responsibilities that come with it.

I do not believe in censorship unless someone calls for violence against others. I just wish in my heart that all children have good role models and people in their life who can help them navigate the complexities of human sexuality. So I think the performance was suited for adults and no harm there. But wish (unrealistically) that the artists would in someway explain that human sexuality is best shared with people who love and respect you.

Maybe that is me being old fashioned. But once again, want to express that I do not believe her performance should be banned or censored.

 

[autumngems]

Ok everyone, play nice. I don't want to get the thread closed.

 

[Matata]

Here's why the rationale that some have expressed that WAP is empowering women bothers me:

Throughout history women have been divested of power over their bodies. We've been variously viewed as property, as commodities, as objects used solely for sexual pleasure, as breeders to secure legacies. We still don't have full agency over our bodies as anti abortion laws continue to swing to and fro.

I have no issue with any gender appreciating the human body through whatever creative medium suits them. My opinion is that the more explicit ways it's done keeps us on a slippery slope -- some see WAP as unabashed pride in sexuality and some see it as demeaning to women. I'm of the latter opinion simply because women are still fighting to be taken seriously in areas that I believe are more important than performance art.

When I see women celebrating their sexuality in forms such as WAP, I can't get over the notion that they are selling themselves into the stereotype of women as sexual objects because we are still, in spite of some progress, a male-dominated society where men think they can say to and do to women what they want when they want. (Disclaimer -- I'm speaking in generalities. Yes, I know all men are not like that.)

Kamala Harris, Deb Haaland and others recent and throughout history did not achieve their power through wet-$ss *ussies. They achieved it through the power of their minds, the power of their wills, the power of their characters to disavow society of the belief that women are useful for little else than sex and reproduction and aren't suited for roles traditionally held by men. I doubt they sacrificed their sexuality in the process.

The Sexual Abuse Scandal Rocking Australia’s Parliament Is the Tip of the Iceberg

A series of shocking revelations have exposed endemic sexual harassment and abuse in Australia’s parliament. To change things, we need to hold abusers to account and empower women at work.

www.jacobinmag.com

 

[VRBeauty]

Here's why the rationale that some have expressed that WAP is empowering women bothers me:

Throughout history women have been divested of power over their bodies. We've been variously viewed as property, as commodities, as objects used solely for sexual pleasure, as breeders to secure legacies. We still don't have full agency over our bodies as anti abortion laws continue to swing to and fro.

I have no issue with any gender appreciating the human body through whatever creative medium suits them. My opinion is that the more explicit ways it's done keeps us on a slippery slope -- some see WAP as unabashed pride in sexuality and some see it as demeaning to women. I'm of the latter opinion simply because women are still fighting to be taken seriously in areas that I believe are more important than performance art.

When I see women celebrating their sexuality in forms such as WAP, I can't get over the notion that they are selling themselves into the stereotype of women as sexual objects because we are still, in spite of some progress, a male-dominated society where men think they can say to and do to women what they want when they want. (Disclaimer -- I'm speaking in generalities. Yes, I know all men are not like that.)

Kamala Harris, Deb Haaland and others recent and throughout history did not achieve their power through wet-$ss *ussies. They achieved it through the power of their minds, the power of their wills, the power of their characters to disavow society of the belief that women are useful for little else than sex and reproduction and aren't suited for roles traditionally held by men. I doubt they sacrificed their sexuality in the process.

The Sexual Abuse Scandal Rocking Australia’s Parliament Is the Tip of the Iceberg

A series of shocking revelations have exposed endemic sexual harassment and abuse in Australia’s parliament. To change things, we need to hold abusers to account and empower women at work.

www.jacobinmag.com

Perhaps “empowerment” is a bad choice of words. Perhaps the term “power” is used too lightly in this context. WAP strikes me as being about women taking charge - or responsibility for - their own sexual pleasure. Which is not mutually exclusive with women using or enjoying the power they’ve rightfully earned in other arenas... or even with men.

But then, I didn’t listen to the words all that closely.