Mydiamondzone EGL vs. GIA

[samranmal]

Hello,

I am in the early stages of looking for an old cut diamond to have made into a pendant. I like the selection and prices on mydiamondzone/Ivy and Rose. I know that EGL certification usually overstates color vs. GIA so what I don't want to do is overpay for an EGL stone when I could have purchased a GIA stone with lower color for less.

The EGL stones that I've looked at through this vendor appear to be priced at a discount to the GIA stones...I'm wondering if others who may have either purchased through them or just perused agree that the pricing seems fair on the EGL stones.

Thank you!

 

[ChristineRose]

EGL is a scam. All EGL stones are priced higher than their GIA equivalents.

It sounds like you are looking at vintage pieces though. Vintage stones are sometimes graded by EGL so that they can avoid being called a poor modern cut by GIA. However even that practice is ending. There are different labs calling themselves EGL and some shut down because the trade stopped working with them.

 

[EvaEvans]

EGL is not a scam, especially the US EGL.
My EGL graded diamond purchased from OWD came 1 color lower with GIA, same clarity.

 

[Confection10]

EGL is not a scam, especially the US EGL.
My EGL graded diamond purchased from OWD came 1 color lower with GIA, same clarity.

As well my previous EGL USA oec 1.35 L vs1 came from AGS as L vs2. Not bad.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Important to remember that the diamonds themselves are completely innocent! No matter which cert they have, a diamond can be beautiful.
I think a better way to re-phrase ChristineRose would be to say that sellers who are not informing the clients that EGL ( even USA) is not grading to GIA standards is "scamming"
The dealers know the facts. ALL the EGL labs overstate color and clarity in an overwhelming percentage of cases.
If a dealer knows this and does not inform the client it could be seen as a scam.

 

[samranmal]

Thank you for the responses. Yes, this would be an antique/vintage stone...I'm just finding that more of them are graded by EGL. My modern cut diamond is GIA and I would never buy a non-GIA modern cut...but feel more willing to try an EGL graded stone in the antique cuts especially since I'm much more willing to give on the color/clarity as long as it has that alluring fire of the old cuts. What I don't want to do is overpay for an EGL stone. I guess since the vendor I'm looking at has a 30 day return policy, I should make it an "eye of the beholder" decision.

 

[ChristineRose]

EGL has something called a pre-cert or something like that. If the dealer is given grades they don't like, then they reject the certification and pay only a small fee. To me, that is a scam. Why would anyone reject grades unless they wanted better grades?

It's true that test where you send a stone to EGL sometimes come back with GIA-equivalents. But that's not the point--those certs are not what the jeweler will show you.

Antiques are an exception. It's unfortunate but the stone is what it is. You can't compare these to a database or anything like that.

 

[Rockdiamond]

EGL has something called a pre-cert or something like that. If the dealer is given grades they don't like, then they reject the certification and pay only a small fee. To me, that is a scam. Why would anyone reject grades unless they wanted better grades?

It's true that test where you send a stone to EGL sometimes come back with GIA-equivalents. But that's not the point--those certs are not what the jeweler will show you.

Antiques are an exception. It's unfortunate but the stone is what it is. You can't compare these to a database or anything like that.

Great points ChristineRose!
I would only add that GIA also informs the person/company submitting the diamond what the grade is prior to printing the report. If the seller is trying to scam, they could tell GIA not to print, then send the stone to one of the EGL's
This is really more about the person selling, and their ethics as opposed to the lab itself.

samranmal- I get where you're coming from. But I will say that actually determining the price ( value) is not even possible for a trained diamond grader. The reason is that one or two grades difference will totally impact the price. And even the most seasoned graders can be off what GIA eventually calls the stone.
One exception is between M and S-T- where the prices won't really be affected by the grade.
But for a consumer, this question can be important.
If the seller is confident in the grade, I'd suggest asking them to send it to GIA. Alternatively, with a 30 day return policy you could submit it yourself to see.
What size stone are we talking about?

 

[samranmal]

Great points ChristineRose!
I would only add that GIA also informs the person/company submitting the diamond what the grade is prior to printing the report. If the seller is trying to scam, they could tell GIA not to print, then send the stone to one of the EGL's
This is really more about the person selling, and their ethics as opposed to the lab itself.

samranmal- I get where you're coming from. But I will say that actually determining the price ( value) is not even possible for a trained diamond grader. The reason is that one or two grades difference will totally impact the price. And even the most seasoned graders can be off what GIA eventually calls the stone.
One exception is between M and S-T- where the prices won't really be affected by the grade.
But for a consumer, this question can be important.
If the seller is confident in the grade, I'd suggest asking them to send it to GIA. Alternatively, with a 30 day return policy you could submit it yourself to see.
What size stone are we talking about?

Ideally between 1-1.5ct

 

[flyingpig]

In my book, EGL is a scam in a broad sense. I won't go into detail since the topic has been discussed countless times.

Now, can buying a EGL be a reasonable choice? For an example, EGL H VS2 that is potentially GIA I SI1, but you pay GIA J SI1 price. Basically, you want to outsmart the system and find a deal.
I guess it is possible. The best analogy I can come up with is a beginner investor trying to outperform S&P 500 by market timing and stock picking. Possible with alot of research and luck. Recommend?? No.

 

[kenny]

I work too hard for my money to be scammed or to take a gamble on the accuracy of the grades, since grades being accurate is the ONLY way to determine the value of a diamond.
As always, when one gambles the odds are with the house.

In USA the only diamond I'd remotely consider buying will have a recent lab report from GIA or AGS.
No other lab.
Period.
Some vendor tries to change my mind and I just walk out.
I'll let someone else gamble with their money.

That said, lots of people ARE gamblers ... an astonishing thing, since most of them lose over and over and over.

So if you are a gambler, buy a stone graded by a less-reputable lab.
Hope springs eternal, they say.
I'll be nice, and I won't call you a sucker.

If you are a really high-roller, buy a diamond with no gem lab report, just trust the seller's claim about the grades.

 

[elle_chris]

Generally, I found that the stones are priced according to what they are, not what the EGL report says. So if you ever wonder why and EGL G and a GIA G sell for thousands apart, that's because the vendor/jeweler knows that the EGL stone is not really a G.

EGL is like a feel good report. The customer pays less thinking they got a deal. In reality, they paid exactly what the stone is worth.

 

[kenny]

EGL is like a feel good report.
The customer pays less thinking they got a deal.
In reality, they paid exactly what the stone is worth.

Actually no, they often pay more.

If selling a diamond for exactly what it is worth was the goal the vendor would have sent the diamond to GIA or AGS.

Flakey labs are all about deceiving and ripping off poorly-informed customers by charging MORE than the same diamond would have sold for with a GIA report with lower (but accurate) grades.
Unfortunately, poorly-informed is exactly what most diamond buyers are.
That's why the flakey labs are so popular with sellers and buyers.
They SEEM to be a better deal than diamond grade by GIA or AGS.
That is, until you find out the color and clarity grades are lies - like a Toyota with a Lexus badge on the hood and trunk.

Oh, and to me an EGL is a feel-crappy report.

... and if EGL-X-country is any better they need to rename it entirely.
People are not going to differentiate and memorize which location's EGL labs are okay or not.
It doesn't work that way.
People are busy with other stuff.

 

[EvaEvans]

One advantage of EGL report vs GIA, especially with old cut diamonds is that EGL gives crown height and pavilion depth. When choosing old cut diamond for me is essential the crown height and the aspect ratio crown:pavilion that give different diamond performance and different aesthetic view.
AGS also gives in their reports the crown&pavilion %, but AGS is more boutique lab that an individual cannot deal directly with. AGS only works with specific jewelers.
As old cut diamonds are unique, I personally would not miss diamond that comes with EGL report. It's easy to issue GIA report, it's difficult to find the right OEC/OMC.

 

[elle_chris]

Actually no, they often pay more.

If selling a diamond for exactly what it is worth was the goal the vendor would have sent the diamond to GIA or AGS.

Flakey labs are all about deceiving and ripping off poorly-informed customers by charging MORE than the same diamond would have sold for with a GIA report with lower (but accurate) grades.
Unfortunately, poorly-informed is exactly what most diamond buyers are.
That's why the flakey labs are so popular with sellers and buyers.
They SEEM to be a better deal than diamond grade by GIA or AGS.
That is, until you find out the color and clarity grades are lies - like a Toyota with a Lexus badge on the hood and trunk.

Oh, and to me an EGL is a feel-crappy report.

... and if EGL-X-country is any better they need to rename it entirely.
People are not going to differentiate and memorize which location's EGL labs are okay or not.
It doesn't work that way.
People are busy with other stuff.

To the part in bold- Why would a vendor send a stone to GIA to get a K, when they can send it to EGL and get an I or J? The grade on the EGL report just looks better.
But I've found in my recent search, that EGL graded stone are priced accordingly. Sure, some jewelers/vendors may charge more, but most don't, they charge what the stone is worth based on the color, clarity, cut, etc. Or maybe I'm just going to the more honest jewelers? But I don't think so.

Kenny, you know that most people don't care what report a diamond comes with as long as it's pretty and they believe they got a good deal.
What EGL means to you, me, or most on this forum is irrelevant in the real world, as people are not interested in diamonds as much as anyone here.
We can rant on EGL all we want, but they still have their place in the market, and people are still buying EGL stones.

In fact, and this is a first for me, I'm considering buying uncerted stones for a project I have going on. I'm only looking for .25ct stones and to me, at that size, as long as they're bright, well cut, and eye clean at 12" I'm good. Don't need the reports, especially GIA or AGS.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I absolutely agree with elle_chris. Small antique stones under a carat (maybe even over a carat) I could probably even buy with no report if there's a return policy. I can check color against my own diamonds. If the report is EGL USA, then I'll assume it's probably 1-2 grades below GIA and will find price comps accordingly. An inaccurate report is only a scam for the person who is ignorant about the lab.

I've bought a 5 stone diamond ring from Diamond Zone with no reports, and my local jeweler said he couldn't buy it whoelsale for less than I paid. So in general, I think they have fair prices. But I always look up price comps on antique stones no matter where I buy.

 

[ChristineRose]

To the part in bold- Why would a vendor send a stone to GIA to get a K, when they can send it to EGL and get an I or J? The grade on the EGL report just looks better.

There are thousands of websites out there telling people not to look at EGL. So a stone is at a disadvantage just by being an EGL, even if the grades are right and/or the price matches the GIA grade.

So why would anyone send a stone to EGL at all? There's the exception for antiques, and I agree with the comments others have made here about buying a antique.

But the real answer is that nobody sells EGL stones at the right price. They are balancing the extra hassle of selling the stone as an EGL vs. the bonus they will get from selling the stone to someone who thinks they can price it fairly by subtracting two grades, or three grades.

But whatever the average person is subtracting, it's not enough. The stones wouldn't be sold as EGL unless they are below the EGL discount.

It probably does all work out in the end. It kind of has to. If one way of doing it was more profitable, then everyone would switch. But the average person should not be playing this game.

 

[elle_chris]

There are thousands of websites out there telling people not to look at EGL. So a stone is at a disadvantage just by being an EGL, even if the grades are right and/or the price matches the GIA grade.

So why would anyone send a stone to EGL at all? There's the exception for antiques, and I agree with the comments others have made here about buying a antique.

But the real answer is that nobody sells EGL stones at the right price. They are balancing the extra hassle of selling the stone as an EGL vs. the bonus they will get from selling the stone to someone who thinks they can price it fairly by subtracting two grades, or three grades.

But whatever the average person is subtracting, it's not enough. The stones wouldn't be sold as EGL unless they are below the EGL discount.

It probably does all work out in the end. It kind of has to. If one way of doing it was more profitable, then everyone would switch. But the average person should not be playing this game.

Based on your second paragraph, there's no reason for any diamond to be sent to EGL at all.
Yet, they are.. and they sell.
Regardless of the "thousands of websites out there telling people not to look at EGL."

You're assuming the average consumer cares about the cert, they don't. In their limited research they learn about color, clarity, shape, and these days, cut. The lab grading is secondary.

Just ask your friends, colleagues, neighbors about their report. Most will look at you like you have two heads if you start discussing the finer differences between the labs.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Based on many thousands of calls over the years I'd say that a fair percentage of shoppers are aware of GIA. But my perspective is skewed - we attract an educated consumer. I'm sure elle_chris is correct about the general population. Which is why I agree with Kenny and ChristineRose that the vast majority of sellers promoting EGL do so so they can get a higher price for a stone based on buyer ignorance.
There's simply no consistency on how far off EGL grades are. Sellers utilize this to fool people- it definitely works against consumers.

I agree also that it's been accepted that older stones are sent to EGL. But I believe that's changing. And I'm one who thinks sites using EGL for old stones are not in touch with the direction of the market. Time will tell.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree with all you you regarding EGL.

But that doesn't change my answer to the OP's question which is, yes, you can buy from Ivy and Rose (Diamond Zone) with confidence as they have a good return policy and many people buy from them for their reasonable prices. I'd certainly buy an OEC from a pawn shop with zero paperwork as long as they have a diamond tester and I can have it double checked and return if not as represented. There's zero risk in this situation as long as the buyer checks pricing or gets a local appraisal (NEVER mention that you bought the stone online, though. Some local jewelers are fiercely jealous of people buying over the internet.)

 

[rockysalamander]

Just to be fair...this thread has become about EGL...Not about MDZ/IvyRose as a seller.

Relative to MDZ/IvyRose, I've bought from them and sent others to them. They are reputable sellers. They've always given me a straight answer on an EGL stone as to how it would rate by GIA. I visited them a few years ago and found them to be honest and straightforward and their eye on color and clarity was similar to mine. They've taken videos and pictures upon request and have a great return policy. They worked very patiently with a very picky and indecisive friend of mine. They would not be my choice for a custom ring, but their stock settings are perfectly good.

 

[samranmal]

Just to be fair...this thread has become about EGL...Not about MDZ/IvyRose as a seller.

Relative to MDZ/IvyRose, I've bought from them and sent others to them. They are reputable sellers. They've always given me a straight answer on an EGL stone as to how it would rate by GIA. I visited them a few years ago and found them to be honest and straightforward and their eye on color and clarity was similar to mine. They've taken videos and pictures upon request and have a great return policy. They worked very patiently with a very picky and indecisive friend of mine. They would not be my choice for a custom ring, but their stock settings are perfectly good.

Thank you! This makes me feel more confident on purchasing a loose antique diamond from them if the right one comes along. Their pricing just seems so good compared to other places....

 

[kenny]

To the part in bold- Why would a vendor send a stone to GIA to get a K, when they can send it to EGL and get an I or J? The grade on the EGL report just looks better.
But I've found in my recent search, that EGL graded stone are priced accordingly. Sure, some jewelers/vendors may charge more, but most don't, they charge what the stone is worth based on the color, clarity, cut, etc. Or maybe I'm just going to the more honest jewelers? But I don't think so.

Kenny, you know that most people don't care what report a diamond comes with as long as it's pretty and they believe they got a good deal.
What EGL means to you, me, or most on this forum is irrelevant in the real world, as people are not interested in diamonds as much as anyone here.
We can rant on EGL all we want, but they still have their place in the market, and people are still buying EGL stones.

In fact, and this is a first for me, I'm considering buying uncerted stones for a project I have going on. I'm only looking for .25ct stones and to me, at that size, as long as they're bright, well cut, and eye clean at 12" I'm good. Don't need the reports, especially GIA or AGS.

I see Pricescope as a place to educate diamond shoppers.

Even after diamond education, people will vary.
Some won't mind overpaying for stones with grades that are lies, for whatever reason.
Others won't.

Education helps people make informed decisions.
Not minding being ripped off after education is quite different than getting ripped off because you didn't know any better.

 

[kenny]

Just to be fair...this thread has become about EGL...Not about MDZ/IvyRose as a seller.

... as it should.

Flakey labs are the elephant in the living room of diamond sales.