Mueller’s Conference today

[Karl_K]

The biggest problem is catch and release by the injustice system.
Recently they caught some gang members who where driving down the road shooting at each other. (long story, but happens a lot here mostly spill over from the Chicago gang wars).
Everyone of those arrested had multiply outstanding felony cases for drugs and a few had multiple cases pending involving violence and firearms yet they were out on the streets shooting at each other.
Not one of them is still in jail.

 

[MissStepcut]

The biggest problem is catch and release by the injustice system.
Recently they caught some gang members who where driving down the road shooting at each other. (long story, but happens a lot here mostly spill over from the Chicago gang wars).
Everyone of those arrested had multiply outstanding felony cases for drugs and a few had multiple cases pending involving violence and firearms yet they were out on the streets shooting at each other.
Not one of them is still in jail.

Don’t you think the torture chambers set up by the Chicago PD under the color of legal authority is a bigger threat to the fabric of our society?

No society to date has successfully ended criminality, but plenty have fallen prey to totalitarianism trying to chase that end. And, as our forefathers said, give me liberty, or give me death.

 

[Karl_K]

Don’t you think the torture chambers set up by the Chicago PD under the color of legal authority is a bigger threat to the fabric of our society?

There are a lot of things wrong with the Chicago PD but do you have a link to an example so we are talking about the same thing?
Nothing would surprise me about the Chicago PD. While there are some outstanding officers in the Chicago PD trying to do an impossible job but there are issues. Catch and release leads to many of those issues.

 

[Karl_K]

No society to date has successfully ended criminality, but plenty have fallen prey to totalitarianism trying to chase that end. And, as our forefathers said, give me liberty, or give me death.

Disarmament of the people is the first step to totalitarianism historically.
The founding fathers know this which is why the 2nd amendment was created.

 

[Tekate]

Guns

Liberals: lets ban all guns
No this is not true.

Conservatives: No, we will not give up our 2nd amendment rights.
Libs: Ok lets just ban homeland defense rifles and standard capacity magazines for now.
No this is not true, where do you get your information from?

Conservatives: No, We will not give up our 2nd amendment rights.
Libs: conservatives will not compromise!!!!!
This is totally true, Conservatives refuse to come to the table and discuss
RATIONAL ways to cut down on rampant selling of guns that are not
needed in daily life. Unfortunatey for the the hundreds who just want
to have AK47s, mentally ill crazy, sick individuals use them to kill as
many as possible and quickly. The good of the community in this case
out weighs the wants of gun lovers.

When: all the time
Where: both the state and federal levels where the 2nd is under attack.

Under attack? Asking for reasonable gun laws isn't LIBERAL it's human.

You are unwilling to compromise, not me as a liberal, you can have guns but no ONE person needs an arsenal at home. Nope.

 

[Karl_K]

you can have guns but no ONE person needs an arsenal at home. Nope.

Define an arsenal?
When I was shooting every weekend it was not uncommon to have 10000 rounds of ammo and 20+ guns around.
We were shooting over a 1000 rounds a week sometimes double that, mostly 22lr and buying them by the case(5000rnds) when we couldn't find a good sale locally.
Gun owners who enjoy shooting are nodding and some anti-gunners are probably freaking out about 10000 rounds of ammo.
It really is nothing unusual.

Some people buy guns like people buy jewelry.
They buy them because they like it or just want something new.
Next thing you know you have a whole bunch of them.
Some you use often some sits in the safe all the time, some are handed down by your family or friends and some you just buy because you want to.

 

[Tekate]

Personally I think one has to be a constitutional lawyer to really understand the 2nd amendment, But I found this interesting.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

It seems to me that originally the 'framers' or the 'fathers' felt every man between the ages of 18 and 45 were members of the 'militia' the way I read this is that they were subject to be called up (today would this would be the draft) to defend their states and country. Of course we have no draft and states of their National Guards, and they were to be armed, this was MEN. So I suppose women and little girls weren't able to be part of the militia.

At this time the high court has not ruled or cases have not been brought forward that would LIMIT the amount of guns a person can own or the type, other than the handgun in the DC order (which to me is wrong but the court is packed with conservatives), it would behoove the court to rule on whether an assault rifle is needed to be part of a militia (which I really don't now if it's the federal militia or the state militia). I find assault weapons to be unnecessary, I think these are good enough.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/10-home-defense-handguns/

I feel that with better control of seriously big assault weapons we may hopefully have less gun deaths. https://www.thetrace.org/2018/09/how-many-assault-weapons-in-the-us/

At the time every able bodied (white) man 18-44 was considered a member of the militia.

Constitution and Bill of Rights (1787–1789)[edit]
The delegates of the Constitutional Convention (the founding fathers/framers of the United States Constitution) under Article 1; section 8, clauses 15 and 16 of the federal constitution, granted Congress the power to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia", as well as, and in distinction to, the power to raise an army and a navy. The US Congress is granted the power to use the militia of the United States for three specific missions, as described in Article 1, section 8, clause 15: "To provide for the calling of the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions." The Militia Act of 1792[27] clarified whom the militia consists of:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act.

 

[Tekate]

Define arsenal.

Dettps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arsenal

When I was shooting every weekend it was not uncommon to have 10000 rounds of ammo and 20+ guns around.

If you were shooting at a range, and you have to buy and return unused ammo then I'm fine with that but I see reason for a common homeowner to have 1000000000 round of ammo at home to protect their home. Yes shooting is a hobby, killing isn't.

We were shooting over a 1000 rounds a week sometimes double that, mostly 22lr and buying them by the case(5000rnds) when we couldn't find a good sale locally.

Good for you, this does not negate my point that a person who is a regular joette or joe needs 1000000000000000000s of round of bullets at home, you can only kill a person once and if you can't kill them with a glock then you shouldn't have a gun.

Gun owners who enjoy shooting are nodding and some anti-gunners are probably freaking out about 10000 rounds of ammo. It really is nothing unusual.

No problem with gun owners shooting 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 rounds of bullets, but one should have to buy their ammo at the range to ensure the bad guys don't get the bullets from a home invasion or simple robbery.

Some people buy guns like people buy jewelry.

Do they? I find this a interesting, I've yet to read how many people have been killed by getting hit on the head with a 10 carat diamond, altho it could happen I suppose. What you are saying is a moral equivalency argument Karl. https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/moral-equivalence/

They buy them because they like it or just want something new.
Next thing you know you have a whole bunch of them.[/QUOTE]

So they are gun collectors. I'm fine with a small collection or arsenal if you wish. But not tons of guns. I personally think military grade asault guns have no place in America. But I do support the owning of guns to protect oneself (like a glock).

https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/assault-weapons/

 

[Tekate]

Now im to stupid to think for myself and need the NRA to do it?

She didn't call you stupid, this is called jumping to a preconceived notion, you think because she mentioned the NRA that she is calling you stupid because you can't read or think for yourself? The NRA is a group that lobbies biggly and hugely for guns and arsenals and freedom to have as many guns etc, so naturally one could think you read the NRA website and info.

That's the number one reason I dont bother talking to liberals.

Hmm you don't talk to liberals because YOU think if they mention you are being influenced by the NRA?

Anyone who disagrees with them is stupid.

YOU say this, and I AGREE that over the last horrid 2+ years right wingers have been called 'stupid' 'dumb' 'idiots' as liberals have been called 'elitists' 'snowflakes' 'socialists'


For the record in not a fan of the NRA they are historically to anti-gun for me.
They have been slightly better in recent years.[/QUOTE]

okey dokey

 

[Karl_K]

If you were shooting at a range, and you have to buy and return unused ammo then I'm fine with that but I see reason for a common homeowner to have 1000000000 round of ammo at home to protect their home. Yes shooting is a hobby, killing isn't.

Had them at my house, there was no place to rent guns or anything else at the range, a lot of the time we were the only ones there.
Why should I have to keep my ammo I paid for at the range?

 

[Tekate]

Had them at my house, there was no place to rent guns or anything else at the range, a lot of the time we were the only ones there.
Why should I have to keep my ammo I paid for at the range?

I'm saying ammo will have to be given out this way, or bought and used the same day etc. I might not even have a problem with a person who buys 100000000000000000000000000000 round of ammo is mentally stable, understands the risks and doesn't resell them.

 

[Karl_K]

Quoting me:

That's the number one reason I dont bother talking to liberals.

That should have said "about politics" on the end there.
I talk to liberals all the time and enjoy talking to them just not about politics.

 

[Tekate]

That should have said "about politics" on the end there.
I talk to liberals all the time and enjoy talking to them just not about politics.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM Karl. You don't want to read or talk or do anything about a situation in our country that is hurting children and innocents. If you say you listen and try to understand I can easily get that, because I try to do that.

 

[Karl_K]

I'm saying ammo will have to be given out this way, or bought and used the same day etc.

I have to say I very strongly disagree.
What about ammo at home for self defense?

 

[Karl_K]

THAT IS THE PROBLEM Karl. You don't want to read or talk or do anything about a situation in our country that is hurting children and innocents. If you say you listen and try to understand I can easily get that, because I try to do that.

In the recent shooting a very brave guy barricaded coworkers in a room and went after the shooter unarmed and was killed.
I am sad he didn't have a gun to defend them and himself.
I am sad that it happened.
I just dont see how trying to take my guns or my gun buying options(I dont own an ar15 and never have but maybe I might want to someday if I recover enough to go to the range regularly) is going to help that.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Gun control works pretty much everywhere else on earth. Things should have drastically changed after Columbine, after Newtown, but as a society we decided that keeping our guns is more important than kids being gunned down at school.

 

[redwood66]

Personally I think one has to be a constitutional lawyer to really understand the 2nd amendment, But I found this interesting.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

It seems to me that originally the 'framers' or the 'fathers' felt every man between the ages of 18 and 45 were members of the 'militia' the way I read this is that they were subject to be called up (today would this would be the draft) to defend their states and country. Of course we have no draft and states of their National Guards, and they were to be armed, this was MEN. So I suppose women and little girls weren't able to be part of the militia.

At this time the high court has not ruled or cases have not been brought forward that would LIMIT the amount of guns a person can own or the type, other than the handgun in the DC order (which to me is wrong but the court is packed with conservatives), it would behoove the court to rule on whether an assault rifle is needed to be part of a militia (which I really don't now if it's the federal militia or the state militia). I find assault weapons to be unnecessary, I think these are good enough.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/10-home-defense-handguns/

I feel that with better control of seriously big assault weapons we may hopefully have less gun deaths. https://www.thetrace.org/2018/09/how-many-assault-weapons-in-the-us/

Most gun deaths are by a handgun, not "big assault weapons". If the goal is to stop gun deaths then banning handguns would be the most obvious by statistics wouldn't it? The horrific shooting in Virginia Beach was done with a handgun and multiple magazines.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

 

[Tekate]

Actually my goal is ban gun deaths AND school shootings and things like the Colorado shooter. I am trying to avoid large numbers killed. Handguns may kill, but they do less damage in large groups. I'm all for lowering the death rates from handguns, but I'm not sure it will pass muster constitutionally.

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-america/

Banning handguns would cut down on suicide, perhaps people will jump, will hang, pills, drugs, if a person is hell bent on killing themself, they will. But my main thrust is to ban assault rifles.

Most gun deaths are by a handgun, not "big assault weapons". If the goal is to stop gun deaths then banning handguns would be the most obvious by statistics wouldn't it?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

[/QUOTE]

 

[Tekate]

One doesn't need 100000000000000000000 rounds to protect themself.

I have to say I very strongly disagree.
What about ammo at home for self defense?

 

[Tekate]

Most companies do NOT let you bring a gun to work, no where I worked let you.

Where did I say I was going to take YOUR GUN BUYING? Assault rifles are not needed. A Glock is good enough to kill and kill over and over.

In the recent shooting a very brave guy barricaded coworkers in a room and went after the shooter unarmed and was killed.
I am sad he didn't have a gun to defend them and himself.
I am sad that it happened.
I just dont see how trying to take my guns or my gun buying options(I dont own an ar15 and never have but maybe I might want to someday if I recover enough to go to the range regularly) is going to help that.

 

[redwood66]

Actually my goal is ban gun deaths AND school shootings and things like the Colorado shooter. I am trying to avoid large numbers killed. Handguns may kill, but they do less damage in large groups. I'm all for lowering the death rates from handguns, but I'm not sure it will pass muster constitutionally.

https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-america/

Banning handguns would cut down on suicide, perhaps people will jump, will hang, pills, drugs, if a person is hell bent on killing themself, they will. But my main thrust is to ban assault rifles.

Why when the most damage is done with handguns? 12 killed with a handgun is a pretty large number.

 

[seaurchin]

100% of gun rights extremists change their minds after one of their loved ones is murdered as a result of the current stupidly lax gun control laws.

 

[JPie]

My family went through a tragic incident involving a gun. My cousin (we'll call him W) knocked up his girlfriend when he was a senior in high school, and her brother threatened to kill him. W took that threat seriously enough that he bought a gun.

Being the stupid kid that he was, W showed off his new gun to our other cousin, C. Then, as C was walking away, W pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger. He didn't realize that there was still a bullet in the chamber and did it as a joke, but that joke cost C his life. Poor kid was only 17.

The problem is that this story isn't unique. Countless deaths could be avoided if we had laws to ensure that guns are sold only to people of sound mind, with proper safety training. We do this successfully with cars and there's no reason why it can't be done with guns, save for the fact that there's a small, vocal minority of gun owners who won't hear of any gun regulations. They're so myopically & selfishly focused on ensuring their own unrestricted access to guns that there's no reasoning with them. The rest of us need to continue speaking up and taking action because lives depend on it.

 

[arkieb1]

Tighter gun laws will have 0 effect on anything. There are more guns than people in the US.
They will only effect the honest and disproportionately the poor denying them the right of self defense.
The vast majority of non suicide shootings in the US are gang and drug related. We can't stop tons of drugs being brought into the country what makes anyone think that more gun laws will help at all.

Yes it's true that there are more guns in the US than people, but it is ALSO true that more than 60% of your population do not own a gun at all, and most of them want to reduce the amount of guns your society has. The minority that own guns seem to automatically assume their right to own and carry them is more important than the rights of 60+% of your society to feel and to be safe.

I remember having a similar discussion with Packrat many eons ago. Her family work in law enforcement and she was arguing a similar thing to you.

Instead of giving up on the problem, imagine an America where instead of trying to go back to factories for jobs, you could achieve full or certainly higher employment by vastly increasing the number of police in general, and armed guards at places like shopping malls and schools. For every dollar gun lobbies spend to keep guns in your society match that dollar for dollar committing more resources to more police on the ground, better policing and creating more detention centres and prisons.

Yes, I understand what you are saying about catch and release if there are no consequences offenders will just do the same things over and over, so really, there needs to be more money, time, effort and resources committed to creating better deterrents for people who commit violent crimes.

Better gun control isn't a simple or easy fix in the US it needs to go hand in hand with better crime management, a vast increase in the numbers of police, better training for those police, and an overhaul and expansion of your prison system.

Both sides (gun owners and non gun owners) want to see less deaths and less crime, so really in a land that proclaims itself to be as great and wonderful as the US it's about time you started committing the time and money to finding solutions that benefit everyone. There is a middle ground here and it's not that difficult to see, responsible gun owners get to keep some types of guns, the rest of society gets better policing, tighter gun laws, and a government willing to tackle and actually do something about crime.

 

[jaaron]

This was your first post:

Some times the idea of liberal compromise goes something like this:
Lets punch you in the face
No thanks
How about we just compromise and just slap you in the face.
No thanks!
Conservatives wont compromise!
Well many conservatives have reached the point of just saying shove off.

When I asked for an example, this was your reply. I guess I fundamentally don't understand your point as saying anything other than liberals don't agree with the 'conservative' stance on guns? How is that slapping anyone in the face? What's the compromise offered by the conservatives in this equation?

QUOTE="Karl_K, post: 4557125, member: 33054"]Guns
Liberals: lets ban all guns
Conservatives: No, we will not give up our 2nd amendment rights.
Libs: Ok lets just ban homeland defense rifles and standard capacity magazines for now.
Conservatives: No, We will not give up our 2nd amendment rights.
Libs: conservatives will not compromise!!!!!

When: all the time
Where: both the state and federal levels where the 2nd is under attack.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Gun control works pretty much everywhere else on earth. Things should have drastically changed after Columbine, after Newtown, but as a society we decided that keeping our guns is more important than kids being gunned down at school.

b/c other countries don't have millions of illegal guns out on the street.

 

[jaaron]

Disarmament of the people is the first step to totalitarianism historically.
The founding fathers know this which is why the 2nd amendment was created.

I actually think you could make a pretty good argument that the first step to totalitarianism, historically, is to create a permanent underclass and, through deprivation, lack of education and resources, convince it to act against its own self interest by enabling the rulers gather a greater balance of power into fewer hands.

Y'all focus away on keeping your guns while the Republicans rob you of your power, your rights, your education and clean air and water for your kids.

 

[JPie]

Oh, and going back to the previous thread drift, here's an explanation of why voter ID laws are racist:



@Karl_K if you think it's okay to add these hurdles for people to exercise their constitutional right to vote to solve a voter fraud problem that doesn't exist, then you can deal with tighter gun regulations.

 

[partgypsy]

I think if the gun industry and gun owners refuse regulations, it will get bad enough (ie considered a public health crisis) the only recourse will be to take all guns away. I have no idea how long that will take though. There were a number of countries that had large percent of their population with guns with liberal gun laws, Greece and Australia being 2. And at some point the laws changed. Initially gun owners were upset at the change particularly since they were countries with hunting self defense traditions (ie literally protecting homeland during times of war). But everyone got used to it , people still had the odd family gun or rifle, the main difference was a big drop in the number of gun deaths.
ETA regarding I'd laws same thing is happening in NC, where at the same time they passed a voter ID amendment, dmvs in rural, poor areas have been shut down or have much reduced hours. Even in Raleigh, waits of hours and hours. I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[Karl_K]

Oh, and going back to the previous thread drift, here's an explanation of why voter ID laws are racist:



@Karl_K if you think it's okay to add these hurdles for people to exercise their constitutional right to vote to solve a voter fraud problem that doesn't exist, then you can deal with tighter gun regulations.

Drivers license or state id and a background check when buying from a dealer(with no tracking) should be good enough to buy any gun. So yea a license or state ID should be required to vote.
I would even support a background check on private sales if a way could be found to to prevent abuse and it was not tracked.