Motherhood and Careers

[sapphirering]

Sapphirering, Ladyroadwarrior... I commend you and others! I, too, am learning so much from such intelligent women who bring so much to the PS community. Best thread ever, even if it does make us uncomfortable at times. It has made me reflect and question my own preconceived notions, which is a great great thing. Being in one's comfort zone feels nice, but this is new territory where there is room for us all to grow and learn from each other.

Ladyroadwarrior, that was the most thoughtful and beautiful story I have read in a long long time. What an incredible caregiver you had in your nanny and your parents. I found it deeply touching and sweet. You must have been a very sensitive soul to have blossomed so beautifully under their care, getting and giving sunshine to each person like a flower. You were very lucky and it sounds like your mom is an incredible woman!

November, your child is SO blessed to have such an amazing mom and geez, a Superdad!!!! How lucky you two are to be able to spend with your daughter when she is sick. And how AWESOME it is that Dad is so hands on and works with you to co-parent! She is a fortunate girl to have two involved and available parents. That's not seen much here in NY. The dads simply aren't as lucky to be able to do so and many are so burned out, they aren't even willing. You have a good man, there! You know all this, I am sure, since you've worked and lived here. It's an extreme society in a lot of cases. I'm so glad you left for a better life! DH and I also want to leave!!!!

Mara, luvya too!!!!! I have been the lucky recipient of your wisdom throughout the years. I would not be the mom I am today if not for you, Pandora, Dreamer, Somethingshiny, Fiery and so many others. Smartest and best moms out there for sure. My baby thanks you all!

I would think it's safe to say that PSers, who are crazy enough to research diamonds, do way way more research on child care and put a great deal of thought and care into their kids. You guys probably have better options than 99% of the population and your kids are VERY lucky to have such crazy parents who care so much. Let's start from there. And let's also say, because I felt awful last night thinking about how my words made fellow moms feel guilty, that I would be a way sorrier mother if not for you PS moms. We moms feel ENOUGH guilt, so to think that I made it worse for you is a terrible thing. I really am sorry about that. I wish I could take it all back if the words stung at all. I can see why they would if I were in your shoes and I would probably be a lot more angry and less graceful than you have been here. I'm sorry. I do not in ANY way mean you, the crazy researching intelligent and caring PS mom community. Heck, I've leaned on you during my miscarriage, during my subsequent pregnancy and birth, then leaned on you during the first three months after I had my beautiful daughter as I struggled with being a mom to a newborn... all of that.

Also, I think that having quality child care and being happy is WAY WAY better than having a SAHM who sits on the couch resenting her child for making her stay at home. No contest. None. It's also a great thing for a child to see their mom hustle and bring home the bacon! I am also proud of my career and this is why I chose to work part time - I don't want to give it up or toss it in the recycle bin yet because darn it, I LIKE IT!

What I stated about lower quality child care has to do with the work that I do serving on a board or two for organizations serving the needs of our inner city residents and the immigrant population in NY. THAT is heartbreaking. The poverty you aren't aware of in NYC walking down Madison Ave. is something that will keep you up at night. And perhaps I got too passionate and outraged about it, because I have seen things that most people have no idea exists. When it comes to lower quality child care and what mothers face when going back to work, it is really unfair and shocking. Places you wouldn't even drive by, let alone know exist, are where kids are left while their moms go to work. And no, they aren't certified...some are just rooms with one person watching the kids, some are a mix of babies and toddlers running rampant with one TV blaring in the background and a few dirty toys... Immigrants who speak no English taking in a few bucks on the side watching many children at once. (And I say this as a first generation immigrant whose parents also did not speak English when they came to the U.S.) These causes are near and dear to me and so perhaps I do get worked up after seeing the poverty people live in...and how their kids are raised. Babies getting no attention all day. This is what a lot of moms face in the city. The disparity is huge. If a mom doesn't want to go on welfare and wants to work, this is what she faces.

DH and I are very close to our mailwoman and helped her daughter get a grant in college. We talk a lot about raising kids. When I mentioned child care, she scoffed at me. She said, "Daycare? Most women I know can't afford daycare. I couldn't and I have a GOOD job." I mean, let's be real here. We buy diamonds. We aren't the general population. Plus, NYC is a skewed society. It's worse here. The lifestyle of working people is insane. For example, here is the schedule of my friend who works a big consultancy (top tier). Wakes up at 6am, maybe squeezes in a workout. At work at 7am. Works full steam until 10pm. Comes home at 11pm. Does more work, answers e-mails. Goes to bed at 1am. Now, how in the world are you supposed to have a child on this kind of schedule? To continue on her career path without throwing it away, she must either get a full time nanny who sleeps there or two nannies to split shifts. She would only see her baby on weekends. This is why she is delaying having a child, even though she has fertility issues right now. And the thing is, her story is not unique at all.

Maybe Manhattan is a twisted world because most moms here do not raise their own kids. They can't. Companies demand far too much of their time. To make that much, you must work that much. And earning a six figure salary here is nothing to live off of. This city is all about money, money, money! Our doormen joke that DH is whipped because he takes care of the baby so much. They say the dads in our building would never watch the baby a whole day, let alone two. I meet only nannies in the elevator during the day. There is only one other mom in my entire huge tower of a building I have ever met with her babies. Even moms who don't work have nannies. It's not uncommon to have a baby nurse for the first 6 months of a baby's life so the mom and dad don't have to wake up at night. Money solves everything.

Then you see moms (again, not PS community moms) who have no choice but to put their kids in lower quality daycares, many of which are not certified. Even the certified ones are pretty horrendous if they are at all affordable for moms with few options. This is what gets me so upset because these are the at risk kids who need the most nurturing if we want them to make it in today's society and achieve the dreams that are their birthright as well. That's when I get to ranting and raving about how unequal it is for moms.

Anyway...carry on! Sorry about the massive typos and crazy grammar... typing furiously as baby tries to crash my laptop! She is surprisingly good at it! Tried to fix most but...ya know how it is!

Bliss, I have a lot of friends with children who live in NYC. (Well, most have moved to Brooklyn and Westchester.) The thing is, people who can thrive and have a successful career in NYC, arguably the most competitive labor market in the world, possess traits and work ethic that drive them beyond the norm. I honestly think that these overachievers are happy in their lifestyle, as tiring as it looks from the outside. A lot of my girlfriends can move to another part of the country and be a SAHW or work in a less demanding job, but they chose not to. It's their decision and as a feminist, I respect that even though it's not the path I would choose. Your current work/life balance is my dream scenario. Due to multiple reasons, I decided to be a SAHM. For me, it's the hardest job I've ever done. I hope to transition to a new field and a new career in the next few years.

 

[MuffDog]

This is by far the most interesting and thought provoking discussion I've read on PS. Although I look like a newbie, I'm an old time poster with a new name for privacy reasons because I recently found out I was preggo and don't want ppl who know me to know.

Anyhoo, I'm in Canada and work at a big corporate law firm (albeit in a smaller department). Women are hired into law firms at almost 40-50% which is great, but by the time partnership rolls around there are very very few women who make it.

The nail in the coffin?

Having kids.

Women who have kids while they are associates are almost certainly taken off the partnership track, even if it isn't said outloud. While we are permitted to take a year off (at my firm we are 'topped up' for 4 months and then we get unemployment for the remainder), if you take that, you are DONE. I'd say that you'd have to take 4 months or less to even be considered for partnership. Not so much because you didn't 'lose' the year, but because you are clearly willing to sacrifice and have shown that your career is more important than your family life.

For me it is quite difficult because my 'boss' is one of those women who think that if she suffered through, so should I. She had two kids who were raised by nannies (no, this isn't always the case when the nannies are involved, but this woman was NEVER home, never cooked and took the nanny on holidays etc to care for her kids). She lost her marriage in the process too.

She told me that it is unreasonable to think that I can build a professional career and take a year off.

I don't think I can have it all. I can't be a big swinging lawyer with the huge paycheck and all the stuff that comes with it AND be the mother I would want to be. I can't. You can't have it both ways.

I think part of the issue is actually with societal expectations. Clients are getting more and more demanding - expecting lawyers to be on-call 24/7 and willing to deal with their file whenever they ask us to. If a client asked me to do something and I said "I'm going to my daughter's dance recital", I'd be fired. If a partner asked me to do something and I was unable to because of a child-related commitment, they'd never ask me to work with them again and I'd be 'off the track'. Expectations are SO high that only a) childless men/women or b) ppl who are okay with letting the nanny put the kids to bed/go to the recital, etc can really make it in the big law world.

That said, I don't really care. I made the choice to get preggo and I will take whatever time a) we can afford b) my kid needs and c) I'm okay with (I might get bored!). If it takes me off the partnership track, well then I don't want it. For those lawyers out there (seems to be a lot) - it doesn't seem to me to get better once you make partner. The hours are still insane and the expectations are ridonk. Of course, you might have more control over when you work the hours, but that is about it.

So there it is - I wasn't sure I even wanted to have kids because I was worried about basically saying goodbye to my big law career. Ultimately I decided that it wasn't important enough to me - I wanted a family and would have to adjust. Most of my guy friends at work have wives who stay home or have nannies. Daycare isn't an option because none of us could get out by 5/5:30 to pick up the LO from the daycare centre.

Anyways - love reading everyones comments. SO interesting.

 

[Mara]

YES to what sapphire and missy said about it should be more equal in the home and that we can't really expect others to push equality when in the home it's not equal to begin with. This is something that I talk about ALL THE TIME with my friends who have kids.

While my husband is really involved, it's still 60/40. And the fact also is that he makes more than I do so if one of our jobs was lost, he's still the primary breadwinner (even if by only a smallish percentage). Also, I can work from home pretty easily so it's not a big deal for me to stay home with the kid and work as he sleeps. Lastly, 3 days of 5 we have a nanny that comes to the house so I don't have to worry about sending him or not sending him if he is sick.

 

[QueenB29]

Wow. I was off PS for a few days and came back to find that this thread had ballooned to 9 pages with some very interesting and thoughtful replies. I guess it goes to show just how sensitive a subject this is.

Interestingly,my mom and I were talking about staying home versus working this past weekend. I don't know how we got on the subject as I'm not even trying yet and won't be for another year, but when I explained to her that if I have two children and kept working (not necessarily for the money, but because my husband's health benefits are terrible), I would basically be working to pay for day care and health care, she said that I'd also be working for my own sanity and did I want to spend 24 hours a day with two screaming children? Interesting. (I'm not sure I want to think about EXACTLY who she was referring to ) I'm sure that the need for adult conversation is acute, but judging by the guilt I feel when I leave my DOG to go to work, I'm not sure I could leave my child and be anything but a complete mess. And of course, my mother was able to work part time in a job she loved and have the piece of mind of knowing that my brother and I were in an excellent and very affordable Army child development center that was actually overseen by my father. So I'm not sure she really "gets" that part. Besides, while I could easily do my job part time (and would love to do so when the time comes), it's just not an option.

 

[yssie]

Wow. I was off PS for a few days and came back to find that this thread had ballooned to 9 pages with some very interesting and thoughtful replies. I guess it goes to show just how sensitive a subject this is.

Interestingly,my mom and I were talking about staying home versus working this past weekend. I don't know how we got on the subject as I'm not even trying yet and won't be for another year, but when I explained to her that if I have two children and kept working (not necessarily for the money, but because my husband's health benefits are terrible), I would basically be working to pay for day care and health care, she said that I'd also be working for my own sanity and did I want to spend 24 hours a day with two screaming children? Interesting. (I'm not sure I want to think about EXACTLY who she was referring to ) I'm sure that the need for adult conversation is acute, but judging by the guilt I feel when I leave my DOG to go to work, I'm not sure I could leave my child and be anything but a complete mess. And of course, my mother was able to work part time in a job she loved and have the piece of mind of knowing that my brother and I were in an excellent and very affordable Army child development center that was actually overseen by my father. So I'm not sure she really "gets" that part. Besides, while I could easily do my job part time (and would love to do so when the time comes), it's just not an option.

Depending on what field you're in, you'd also be working to secure prospects of future employment.

In my field if it came down to a choice between working to break even with daycare or not working, as someone who is invested in her career and would want to continue working after having children, this is a no-brainer: I would keep working and keep myself hire-able. Employers in this field don't want and won't hire people who've been out of work for whatever reason.

 

[missy]

For those who worked with Brits who said that they preferred the opportunities in the USA, were they young 20-something, 30-something, singles, or married women with kids? There are an awful lot of us who move abroad for the experience and an adventure when we are young and then move home when we are ready to settle down!

Pandora, the Brits (and people from other nationalities as well) I am friends with (men and women) and who have moved here have done so for (in their words) better opportunities. More opportunity for job advancement and the kind of life they want. Age range thirties early-late and married. Some with kids and some without. They live here by choice.

This is by far the most interesting and thought provoking discussion I've read on PS. Although I look like a newbie, I'm an old time poster with a new name for privacy reasons because I recently found out I was preggo and don't want ppl who know me to know.

Anyhoo, I'm in Canada and work at a big corporate law firm (albeit in a smaller department). Women are hired into law firms at almost 40-50% which is great, but by the time partnership rolls around there are very very few women who make it.

The nail in the coffin?

Having kids.

Women who have kids while they are associates are almost certainly taken off the partnership track, even if it isn't said outloud. While we are permitted to take a year off (at my firm we are 'topped up' for 4 months and then we get unemployment for the remainder), if you take that, you are DONE. I'd say that you'd have to take 4 months or less to even be considered for partnership. Not so much because you didn't 'lose' the year, but because you are clearly willing to sacrifice and have shown that your career is more important than your family life.

For me it is quite difficult because my 'boss' is one of those women who think that if she suffered through, so should I. She had two kids who were raised by nannies (no, this isn't always the case when the nannies are involved, but this woman was NEVER home, never cooked and took the nanny on holidays etc to care for her kids). She lost her marriage in the process too.

She told me that it is unreasonable to think that I can build a professional career and take a year off.

I don't think I can have it all. I can't be a big swinging lawyer with the huge paycheck and all the stuff that comes with it AND be the mother I would want to be. I can't. You can't have it both ways.

I think part of the issue is actually with societal expectations. Clients are getting more and more demanding - expecting lawyers to be on-call 24/7 and willing to deal with their file whenever they ask us to. If a client asked me to do something and I said "I'm going to my daughter's dance recital", I'd be fired. If a partner asked me to do something and I was unable to because of a child-related commitment, they'd never ask me to work with them again and I'd be 'off the track'. Expectations are SO high that only a) childless men/women or b) ppl who are okay with letting the nanny put the kids to bed/go to the recital, etc can really make it in the big law world.

Hi Muff, Yeah, corporate law is a toughie! My dh used to work in the field of corporate law (one of the top firms in NYC) and he was expected to be on call 24/7 and in the beginning I resented it. I even threatened to put his damn blackberry in the microwave a few times LOL. But then I began to appreciate the opportunities it afforded us and the freedom that being able to work remotely via blackberry allowed us/him to have. His old firm even allowed maternity/paternity leave (3months paid for women and 1 month for men if I am remembering correctly) but as you said if one took the maternity/paternity leave you could pretty much say goodbye to the partner track. Sad but true.

I think there are other careers more conducive to raising a family but of course one wants to work in the field one loves.

I think this has been said in this thread (or alluded to) but the reason other civilized countries/nations offer paid maternity leave is that the key to economic growth and more tax dollars is through people producing babies. Many industrialized nations (Europe in particular) are experiencing a significant population decline right now. That leads to economic decline, wealth decline, and less taxpayer dollars. If there are incentives for people to have kids and have more of them then people will ultimately have more children, the population will grow again, and everyone is happy (except the environmentalists).

Education, health care, and work/life balance are areas that we should strive as a country and obviously we are still far from the ideal.
I just don't see that the other countries are so perfect either.
What's that saying? "Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all of the others.”

 

[misssoph]

Wow. I was off PS for a few days and came back to find that this thread had ballooned to 9 pages with some very interesting and thoughtful replies. I guess it goes to show just how sensitive a subject this is.

Interestingly,my mom and I were talking about staying home versus working this past weekend. I don't know how we got on the subject as I'm not even trying yet and won't be for another year, but when I explained to her that if I have two children and kept working (not necessarily for the money, but because my husband's health benefits are terrible), I would basically be working to pay for day care and health care, she said that I'd also be working for my own sanity and did I want to spend 24 hours a day with two screaming children? Interesting. (I'm not sure I want to think about EXACTLY who she was referring to ) I'm sure that the need for adult conversation is acute, but judging by the guilt I feel when I leave my DOG to go to work, I'm not sure I could leave my child and be anything but a complete mess. And of course, my mother was able to work part time in a job she loved and have the piece of mind of knowing that my brother and I were in an excellent and very affordable Army child development center that was actually overseen by my father. So I'm not sure she really "gets" that part. Besides, while I could easily do my job part time (and would love to do so when the time comes), it's just not an option.

Depending on what field you're in, you'd also be working to secure prospects of future employment.

In my field if it came down to a choice between working to break even with daycare or not working, as someone who is invested in her career and would want to continue working after having children, this is a no-brainer: I would keep working and keep myself hire-able. Employers in this field don't want and won't hire people who've been out of work for whatever reason.

Also as an insurance policy in case the unthinkable happens and due to death or divorce one has to become the breadwinner it is vital to remain employable.
Both my grandfathers died young leaving young children, and both my grandmothers despite being 50s housewives had to find work to survive. You never know what will happen. Hope for the best but make some plans for the worst.

 

[Rhea]

Missy, you make good points.

Other countries might have better maternity leave benefits, but nothing is free. The citizens of those countries pay much higher taxes than we do. Just like "free" health care.

I've worked in both the US and the UK. My taxes and cost of medical insurance combined in each country weren't that different when I calculated it one year. Medical care is part of my UK taxes. In the US, yes, taxes were lower on the face of it, but by the time I was paying for medical insurance out of my paycheque it was about the same.

This was a few years ago I did this so it could be different now, but I was pretty shocked at the time.