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Moonlight and diamonds?

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HariSeldon

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Hey all,

Now that I have my ring all picked out, my attention has been redirected to the proposal scenario. I''m planning on asking her at her parent''s lakehouse at night when we''re looking for shooting stars on the dock. So my question is this... what effect does moonlight have on a diamond? I doubt it will sparkle much but will it still glow with just moonlighting? That concern popped in my mind today while lurking on the board and I havent seen it addressed anywere so I thought it was worth of discussion!

Hari
 

zebramoray

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Hari..

That''s expensive fish bait!!!! I would get off the dock before gettin er done..
 

jstarfireb

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LOL...good point...make sure nobody drops it! I can''t answer your question but just thought that response was cute.
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/1/2008 3:15:14 PM
Author: zebramoray
Hari..


That''s expensive fish bait!!!! I would get off the dock before gettin er done..


lol well you''ve gotta use an ideal diamond if you want to hook an ideal catch
28.gif
 

surfgirl

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Whether or not it glows in the moonlight, I would not propose on a dock at night! You will be nervous no doubt (and possibly have ye ole sweaty hands), and you dont want to fumble and drop the ring into the water at night do you? If you''re doing that, why not do it somewhere like in a forest or field clearing so you can be on terra firma, just in case...
 

Brown.Eyed.Girl

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Date: 8/1/2008 7:12:41 PM
Author: surfgirl
Whether or not it glows in the moonlight, I would not propose on a dock at night! You will be nervous no doubt (and possibly have ye ole sweaty hands), and you dont want to fumble and drop the ring into the water at night do you? If you''re doing that, why not do it somewhere like in a forest or field clearing so you can be on terra firma, just in case...

Ditto! And if there is a field clearing and you''re amenable to that idea, why not bring a blanket, lie down, watch the stars, and then propose? That way, if the ring drops, it''s on the blanket and not on grass?
1.gif


Good luck! And just in case, bring a flashlight!
2.gif
 

John P

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Date: 8/1/2008 2:59:26 PM
Author:HariSeldon

Hey all,

Now that I have my ring all picked out, my attention has been redirected to the proposal scenario. I'm planning on asking her at her parent's lakehouse at night when we're looking for shooting stars on the dock. So my question is this... what effect does moonlight have on a diamond? I doubt it will sparkle much but will it still glow with just moonlighting? That concern popped in my mind today while lurking on the board and I havent seen it addressed anywere so I thought it was worth of discussion!

Hari
Hi Hari. The answer depends on where the moon is positioned, how bright it is, whether it's a cloudless night and what other light sources there are.

With a bright moon you can get subtle, needle-like flashes seen mainly across and under the surface of the diamond. If it's high in the sky you'll see more of these since diamonds are cut presuming that our world is lit from above. If there are clouds in the sky and the moon is bright enough to illuminate them this soft diffused light can illuminate more of the body of the diamond. If the moon is too low the performance is reduced as there won't be enough high-angle light and there may be obstruction/shadow caused by your heads or objects between you and the horizon.

Bear in mind that your pupils are dilated when the environment is dark. This lessens the chance that your pupil will "clip" the dispersed light from the diamond as it recombines, meaning that most flashes you see will either be white or take on the color of your surroundings - and if there is an orange or yellow moon this may not be the effect you want. Alternately, if you have a boathouse with Christmas-style lights on nearby it could create a lot of rainbow twinkles. If possible, go to "your spot" the night before and test the waters (not literally).
1.gif


To that end, having proposed myself, I'll vouch for Surfgirl's comments. If you're dead-set on a dock, maybe take a large blanket to spread so there is no chance anything will fall between the cracks. In fact, unless it seems contrived, maybe a whole picnic, complete with big blanket, some sort of basket and...a half-dozen candles...which could make a beautiful stage, complete with moon and your own guaranteed lighting.
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/2/2008 12:07:42 PM
Author: John Pollard
Date: 8/1/2008 2:59:26 PM

Author:HariSeldon


Hey all,


Now that I have my ring all picked out, my attention has been redirected to the proposal scenario. I''m planning on asking her at her parent''s lakehouse at night when we''re looking for shooting stars on the dock. So my question is this... what effect does moonlight have on a diamond? I doubt it will sparkle much but will it still glow with just moonlighting? That concern popped in my mind today while lurking on the board and I havent seen it addressed anywere so I thought it was worth of discussion!


Hari

Hi Hari. The answer depends on where the moon is positioned, how bright it is, whether it''s a cloudless night and what other light sources there are.


With a bright moon you can get subtle, needle-like flashes seen mainly across and under the surface of the diamond. If it''s high in the sky you''ll see more of these since diamonds are cut presuming that our world is lit from above. If there are clouds in the sky and the moon is bright enough to illuminate them this soft diffused light can illuminate more of the body of the diamond. If the moon is too low the performance is reduced as there won''t be enough high-angle light and there may be obstruction/shadow caused by your heads or objects between you and the horizon.


Bear in mind that your pupils are dilated when the environment is dark. This lessens the chance that your pupil will ''clip'' the dispersed light from the diamond as it recombines, meaning that most flashes you see will either be white or take on the color of your surroundings - and if there is an orange or yellow moon this may not be the effect you want. Alternately, if you have a boathouse with Christmas-style lights on nearby it could create a lot of rainbow twinkles. If possible, go to ''your spot'' the night before and test the waters (not literally).
1.gif



To that end, having proposed myself, I''ll vouch for Surfgirl''s comments. If you''re dead-set on a dock, maybe take a large blanket to spread so there is no chance anything will fall between the cracks. In fact, unless it seems contrived, maybe a whole picnic, complete with big blanket, some sort of basket and...a half-dozen candles...which could make a beautiful stage, complete with moon and your own guaranteed lighting.


Thanks for the info John!

I am planning on having a blanket which is why I wasnt too worried about dropping the ring... its not fun star gazing with wooden planks sticking in your back >
Does eye dilation really reduce your ability to see diamond scintillation? Seems to me you''d see it more since your eye is allowing more light to enter your cornea and hit the optic nerve.
 

Lord Summerisle

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a little cautionary tale ;-)

Devin Smith spent months orchestrating a romantic proposal on the river pier, only to watch his girlfriend’s perfect engagement ring fall 40 feet into the Tennessee River. Lucky for them, the story doesn’t end there. Amanda Hale explains, “It was just like a regular date. We were gonna go to the movies, then out to eat. It was just regular. I didn’t think one thing about it.” That regular date is now the story of a lifetime for Devin Smith and Amanda Hale. Two weeks ago, the couple came to Ross’ Landing. It’s where Devin planned to propose. It was just one of those moments. It happened in slow motion,” said Devin. “I went to open the ring box. It (the ring) hopped out of the box, bounced off the pier and into the river.” Amanda explained, “He went on ahead and proposed. He said, your ring may be in the bottom of the Tennessee River, but our love is forever. Will you marry me?” Amanda said yes, but like any bride-to-be, she wanted to display the proof on her finger. That night. Devin’s mother had a dream… a sign pointing them in the right direction. “I just dreamed that we found the ring, and that it was on rocks, and actually I didn’t remember this until yesterday, but there was water running over the ring,” explained Kim Smith. That’s where John from “Choo-Choo Divers” comes in. The next day, he dove 12 feet into the swift, Tennessee River in search of the missing ring. John Scruggs said, “If a ring could wink, it winked at me. I was six feet away, and it was bright and brilliant. Just as shiny as could be.” …”Within thirty seconds of going down, he swam back up,” explained Devin. “He asked who had the dream? My dad pointed to my mom and said she did. Then John said, well dreams come true and held up the ring!” The ring is now permanently placed on Amanda’s finger. She believes it’s a symbol their love can survive it all. Amanda explains, “To me it just shows that we are meant to be together, because who would think that you could find a ring, almost 14 feet below in the water!?!?”
 

MonkeyPie

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Lord S, that was AWESOME!
But I would not have my ring anywhere near the water anyway. Lol.
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/4/2008 10:33:47 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
a little cautionary tale ;-)

Devin Smith spent months orchestrating a romantic proposal on the river pier, only to watch his girlfriend’s perfect engagement ring fall 40 feet into the Tennessee River. Lucky for them, the story doesn’t end there. Amanda Hale explains, “It was just like a regular date. We were gonna go to the movies, then out to eat. It was just regular. I didn’t think one thing about it.” That regular date is now the story of a lifetime for Devin Smith and Amanda Hale. Two weeks ago, the couple came to Ross’ Landing. It’s where Devin planned to propose. It was just one of those moments. It happened in slow motion,” said Devin. “I went to open the ring box. It (the ring) hopped out of the box, bounced off the pier and into the river.” Amanda explained, “He went on ahead and proposed. He said, your ring may be in the bottom of the Tennessee River, but our love is forever. Will you marry me?” Amanda said yes, but like any bride-to-be, she wanted to display the proof on her finger. That night. Devin’s mother had a dream… a sign pointing them in the right direction. “I just dreamed that we found the ring, and that it was on rocks, and actually I didn’t remember this until yesterday, but there was water running over the ring,” explained Kim Smith. That’s where John from “Choo-Choo Divers” comes in. The next day, he dove 12 feet into the swift, Tennessee River in search of the missing ring. John Scruggs said, “If a ring could wink, it winked at me. I was six feet away, and it was bright and brilliant. Just as shiny as could be.” …”Within thirty seconds of going down, he swam back up,” explained Devin. “He asked who had the dream? My dad pointed to my mom and said she did. Then John said, well dreams come true and held up the ring!” The ring is now permanently placed on Amanda’s finger. She believes it’s a symbol their love can survive it all. Amanda explains, “To me it just shows that we are meant to be together, because who would think that you could find a ring, almost 14 feet below in the water!?!?”
lol that would suck! maybe ill tie a sting to it and anchor it to my belt. lol
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/2/2008 12:07:42 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/1/2008 2:59:26 PM
Author:HariSeldon

Hey all,

Now that I have my ring all picked out, my attention has been redirected to the proposal scenario. I''m planning on asking her at her parent''s lakehouse at night when we''re looking for shooting stars on the dock. So my question is this... what effect does moonlight have on a diamond? I doubt it will sparkle much but will it still glow with just moonlighting? That concern popped in my mind today while lurking on the board and I havent seen it addressed anywere so I thought it was worth of discussion!

Hari
Hi Hari. The answer depends on where the moon is positioned, how bright it is, whether it''s a cloudless night and what other light sources there are.

With a bright moon you can get subtle, needle-like flashes seen mainly across and under the surface of the diamond. If it''s high in the sky you''ll see more of these since diamonds are cut presuming that our world is lit from above. If there are clouds in the sky and the moon is bright enough to illuminate them this soft diffused light can illuminate more of the body of the diamond. If the moon is too low the performance is reduced as there won''t be enough high-angle light and there may be obstruction/shadow caused by your heads or objects between you and the horizon.

Bear in mind that your pupils are dilated when the environment is dark. This lessens the chance that your pupil will ''clip'' the dispersed light from the diamond as it recombines, meaning that most flashes you see will either be white or take on the color of your surroundings - and if there is an orange or yellow moon this may not be the effect you want. Alternately, if you have a boathouse with Christmas-style lights on nearby it could create a lot of rainbow twinkles. If possible, go to ''your spot'' the night before and test the waters (not literally).
1.gif


To that end, having proposed myself, I''ll vouch for Surfgirl''s comments. If you''re dead-set on a dock, maybe take a large blanket to spread so there is no chance anything will fall between the cracks. In fact, unless it seems contrived, maybe a whole picnic, complete with big blanket, some sort of basket and...a half-dozen candles...which could make a beautiful stage, complete with moon and your own guaranteed lighting.

just checked the moon phase calendar and its gonna be a full moon
1.gif
 

Brown.Eyed.Girl

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Date: 8/4/2008 11:51:00 AM
Author: HariSeldon
Date: 8/4/2008 10:33:47 AM

Author: Lord Summerisle

a little cautionary tale ;-)


Devin Smith spent months orchestrating a romantic proposal on the river pier, only to watch his girlfriend’s perfect engagement ring fall 40 feet into the Tennessee River. Lucky for them, the story doesn’t end there. Amanda Hale explains, “It was just like a regular date. We were gonna go to the movies, then out to eat. It was just regular. I didn’t think one thing about it.” That regular date is now the story of a lifetime for Devin Smith and Amanda Hale. Two weeks ago, the couple came to Ross’ Landing. It’s where Devin planned to propose. It was just one of those moments. It happened in slow motion,” said Devin. “I went to open the ring box. It (the ring) hopped out of the box, bounced off the pier and into the river.” Amanda explained, “He went on ahead and proposed. He said, your ring may be in the bottom of the Tennessee River, but our love is forever. Will you marry me?” Amanda said yes, but like any bride-to-be, she wanted to display the proof on her finger. That night. Devin’s mother had a dream… a sign pointing them in the right direction. “I just dreamed that we found the ring, and that it was on rocks, and actually I didn’t remember this until yesterday, but there was water running over the ring,” explained Kim Smith. That’s where John from “Choo-Choo Divers” comes in. The next day, he dove 12 feet into the swift, Tennessee River in search of the missing ring. John Scruggs said, “If a ring could wink, it winked at me. I was six feet away, and it was bright and brilliant. Just as shiny as could be.” …”Within thirty seconds of going down, he swam back up,” explained Devin. “He asked who had the dream? My dad pointed to my mom and said she did. Then John said, well dreams come true and held up the ring!” The ring is now permanently placed on Amanda’s finger. She believes it’s a symbol their love can survive it all. Amanda explains, “To me it just shows that we are meant to be together, because who would think that you could find a ring, almost 14 feet below in the water!?!?”

lol that would suck! maybe ill tie a sting to it and anchor it to my belt. lol


Put it on a chain around your neck, and then tell her you have this elaborate process to ensure it''s not dropped - she puts it on with the chain attached, you detach chain, slowly pull chain through ring, secure ring on finger, then voila! Enjoy the full moon
2.gif
 

gracioso

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nice one, go for it, popping the question does not happen every day so make sure it is memorable
 

John P

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Date: 8/4/2008 5:55:39 AM
Author: HariSeldon

Thanks for the info John!

I am planning on having a blanket which is why I wasnt too worried about dropping the ring... its not fun star gazing with wooden planks sticking in your back >< The dock is really a boat house so i might take you up on your idea of the christmas lights.. altho that would cause your eyes to dilate and you wouldnt see many stars.
I wonder if you could stargaze, then have the ability to turn on the Christmas lights just before you presented the ring? If not, a half-dozen candles and a clear ice-bucket (like you''d chill wine in) filled with ice can give nice ambient lighting.


Date: 8/4/2008 5:55:39 AM
Author: HariSeldon

Does eye dilation really reduce your ability to see diamond scintillation? Seems to me you''d see it more since your eye is allowing more light to enter your cornea and hit the optic nerve.
It just reduces your ability to see color, since the dispersed colored light returned has more opportunity to recombine into white. Here are a few posts to (crudely) illustrate this...

1. We all know how dispersion works. Here is a basic prism graphic. Any Pink Floyd fans? (age showing)

dispersion-prism-coolpinkfloyd.jpg
 

John P

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2. If your pupils are wide open that dispersed light has a better chance of recombining by the time it hits the retina, and when we see all the colors of the spectrum we perceive it as white light (modified NYSOA graphic).

pupil-dilated-dispersion.jpg
 

John P

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3. If you pupils are undilated (closed) there is a better chance the dispersion will get "clipped" before it hits the retina, and you will perceive color. This illustration is not technically accurate, but I hope it serves the purpose (modified NYSOA graphic).

pupil-undilated-dispersion.jpg
 

John P

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If you have ever looked at a well-cut diamond in bright sunlight you know that the inside of the diamond will appear dark but you'll see crazy colorful sparkle from it. This is because your pupils close to protect your eyes from the bright sunlight, but in doing so they are very effectively clipping dispersion, so you see color in abundance.
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/4/2008 4:39:13 PM
Author: John Pollard
If you have ever looked at a well-cut diamond in bright sunlight you know that the inside of the diamond will appear dark but you''ll see crazy colorful sparkle from it. This is because your pupils close to protect your eyes from the bright sunlight, but in doing so they are very effectively clipping dispersion, so you see color in abundance.


Awesome explanation John! That def makes sense now.
 

WinkHPD

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Date: 8/4/2008 5:55:39 AM
Author: HariSeldon

Date: 8/2/2008 12:07:42 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/1/2008 2:59:26 PM

Author:HariSeldon


Hey all,


Now that I have my ring all picked out, my attention has been redirected to the proposal scenario. I''m planning on asking her at her parent''s lake house at night when we''re looking for shooting stars on the dock. So my question is this... what effect does moonlight have on a diamond? I doubt it will sparkle much but will it still glow with just moonlighting? That concern popped in my mind today while lurking on the board and I haven''t seen it addressed anywhere so I thought it was worth of discussion!


Hari

Hi Hari. The answer depends on where the moon is positioned, how bright it is, whether it''s a cloudless night and what other light sources there are.


With a bright moon you can get subtle, needle-like flashes seen mainly across and under the surface of the diamond. If it''s high in the sky you''ll see more of these since diamonds are cut presuming that our world is lit from above. If there are clouds in the sky and the moon is bright enough to illuminate them this soft diffused light can illuminate more of the body of the diamond. If the moon is too low the performance is reduced as there won''t be enough high-angle light and there may be obstruction/shadow caused by your heads or objects between you and the horizon.


Bear in mind that your pupils are dilated when the environment is dark. This lessens the chance that your pupil will ''clip'' the dispersed light from the diamond as it recombines, meaning that most flashes you see will either be white or take on the color of your surroundings - and if there is an orange or yellow moon this may not be the effect you want. Alternately, if you have a boathouse with Christmas-style lights on nearby it could create a lot of rainbow twinkles. If possible, go to ''your spot'' the night before and test the waters (not literally).
1.gif



To that end, having proposed myself, I''ll vouch for Surfgirl''s comments. If you''re dead-set on a dock, maybe take a large blanket to spread so there is no chance anything will fall between the cracks. In fact, unless it seems contrived, maybe a whole picnic, complete with big blanket, some sort of basket and...a half-dozen candles...which could make a beautiful stage, complete with moon and your own guaranteed lighting.


Thanks for the info John!

I am planning on having a blanket which is why I wasn''t too worried about dropping the ring... its not fun star gazing with wooden planks sticking in your back >
Does eye dilation really reduce your ability to see diamond scintillation? Seems to me you''d see it more since your eye is allowing more light to enter your cornea and hit the optic nerve.
Hi Hari,

What John is referring to is the fact that the reason we see colored light coming out of a diamond is the same that we see the rainbow from a prism. Light is bent breaking it into its spectral colors.

Since diamond facets and virtual facets are very small, this bending is not nearly as large as it is in the prisms we played with as children. (If you never got to play with one as a child, you officially qualify as having led a deprived childhood.)

Here is the part John was talking about. If, when the ray of light reaches your eye, or rather the pupil of your eye, that ray is wider than your pupil, you will see a flash of color. If you were of incredibly steady hand you might actually be able to minusculey turn the ring to follow the ray through the spectrum. If your pupil is wider than the ray, then you will perceive all of the colors at once, which is seen as white light by our eyes. Thus at night, when your eyes are more dilated than normal, you will perceive more white light and less color. You may actually see more scintillation, but you will see less dispersion, which is what we call the flashes of color.

There is a thread here somewhere with graffics to illustrate this better than I am explaining it, but that is what we are talking about.

Wink
 

diagem

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Date: 8/4/2008 4:32:52 PM
Author: John Pollard

1. We all know how dispersion works. Here is a basic prism graphic. Any Pink Floyd fans? (age showing)
dispersion-prism-coolpinkfloyd.jpg


Love the Dark Side of The Moon...
18.gif
, but definitely not the best lighting to propose..., especially not near the water....
27.gif
 

WinkHPD

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Oh my, Here John has obviously worked for HOURS to do some very nice graphics so please disregard my earlier comment about graphics, these will do nicely!

Wink
 

HariSeldon

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Date: 8/4/2008 6:08:15 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 8/4/2008 4:32:52 PM

Author: John Pollard


1. We all know how dispersion works. Here is a basic prism graphic. Any Pink Floyd fans? (age showing)
dispersion-prism-coolpinkfloyd.jpg



Love the Dark Side of The Moon...
18.gif
, but definitely not the best lighting to propose..., especially not near the water....
27.gif





its more about the moment than the lighting
2.gif
i was just curious of what to expect.
 

jstarfireb

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With respect to seeing colored reflections, there''s another factor at play as well. The retina of the eye has 2 types of light-sensitive cells: rods and cones. Cones are the ones that can perceive color, and they do not work in darkness. So when it''s dark outside and lit only by the moon, you''re not only seeing things with dilated pupils, but you''re also seeing things with mostly rods, which can''t see color.
 

HariSeldon

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John/Wink,

This might be a dumb question... will the color of a diamond have an impact? I know cut/optical symmetry determine light performance but will moonlight bring out the whiteness of say a D/E/F color diamond?
 

WinkHPD

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Date: 8/4/2008 6:42:34 PM
Author: HariSeldon
John/Wink,

This might be a dumb question... will the color of a diamond have an impact? I know cut/optical symmetry determine light performance but will moonlight bring out the whiteness of say a D/E/F color diamond?
My gut instinct is to say no, but the only way to know for sure would be to look at it under the moonlight. I strongly suspect that in this case my gut is correct...

Wink
 

John P

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Date: 8/4/2008 6:42:34 PM
Author: HariSeldon
John/Wink,

This might be a dumb question... will the color of a diamond have an impact? I know cut/optical symmetry determine light performance but will moonlight bring out the whiteness of say a D/E/F color diamond?
Not dumb at all. Actually, jstarfireb kicked this thread into physiology-mode. He's right about rods and cones which is another reason I suggested a half-dozen candles in the first place: Light sources close to you, even soft flame, enhance your ability to see color whereas it's much harder in darkness with only distant light sources.

In either case the diamond will reflect the color of the surroundings and light sources, if any. A white moon will show white. If the moon is yellow or orange that's what you'll see in a well-cut diamond. Such diamonds give back what you put in.

I'm interested in following your progress so please keep us up to date.
 

John P

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Thanks a lot Wink. Photoshop is my friend.
2.gif
DG, somehow I knew you''d be a Pink Floyd fan. All in all...
 

jstarfireb

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Date: 8/4/2008 7:23:41 PM
Author: John Pollard
Not dumb at all. Actually, jstarfireb kicked this thread into physiology-mode. He''s right...

Just to clarify, "he''s" actually a she!
3.gif


I majored in neurobiology, and I never foresaw the opportunity to talk about diamonds and neurons in the same sentence, so of course I had to take it!
2.gif
 

John P

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Date: 8/4/2008 9:54:09 PM
Author: jstarfireb

Just to clarify, ''he''s'' actually a she!
3.gif
Great googly moogly. Color me red...
6.gif
I''m going to blame it on never layin'' rods or cones on ya. A thousand pardons.



I majored in neurobiology, and I never foresaw the opportunity to talk about diamonds and neurons in the same sentence, so of course I had to take it!
2.gif
You do a nice job of helping ''round here on all the above, jstar.
 
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