Modern Jeweler article bashing internet buying

[sklingem]

An online consumer review website. Pretty informative!

 

[Dee*Jay]

Gotcha - thank you!

 

[Dreamer_D]

This is a great thread, I read the whole article that Deejay linked and was really grossed out. As others have mentioned, smarmy selling tactics are the whole reason that I do not work with B & M jewelers anymore. I had two bad experiences and that was enough for me, thank you very much!

Thanks to oldminer, denverappraiser, and niceice for your really interesting industry perspectives. If I had been able to find a local jeweler who treated me with dignity and respect, and who tried to actually educate me rather than use "tactics", then I would have paid a little more money to buy from someone face to face. Too bad I couldn't find that!

 

[honey22]

Hmff! Probably written by some old donkey that hasn't even mastered the use of a touch button telephone, let alone the internet! Can someone google 'ripoff merchant'?

BTW - from my avatar, you can clearly see I got a doozy on the net, ended up with an D VS2 ACA - woe is me!!!!!

 

[sklingem]

Here is the response I got - judge for yourself! LOL

"I write in response to your email. Perhaps you miss understood the gist of the article. Jewelers must get competitive with internet prices. They must consider them a competitor. As for the independent appraisal for $900, if you read the statement, a client told us of a gemologist that HELPS CLIENTS SELECT A DIAMOND FROM THE INTERNET (CONSULTING FEE) AND PROVIDES AN APPRAISAL FOR THIS ITEM.
It is not an appraisal fee. The gemologist is 2 buildings away and actually makes a living doing this. Not a blatant lie. I agree it is ridicules. The article was in response to how customers have felt by salespeople who have not helped the client. The idea of relaying actual "stories" is that you can communicate without lecturing or selling.
Customers have expressed their dismay of boring sales lectures. The point of "they can''t tell the difference" is that we need to help them, and guide them. It is not so simple. Diamond salespeople have become the lazy ignorant ones not the consumers. This article was a wake up call to what is going on in our industry and how consumers come to us for help and we are failing them.
I appreciate your input. This article was much longer, the editors edit and perhaps much of the spirit of the
article was lost.
Sincerely,
Bret Morris G.G.

 

[Allison D.]

Having spent the last 21 years in sales myself, I can say that the approach suggested by this article isn''t likely to reap consistent rewards.

I personally believe there is a single factor that has helped online vendors, and it''s the same factor that has hurt B&M jewelers.......TRANSPARENCY.

Prior to the advent of online information, there was no way for consumers to understand why different diamonds command different pricing. There was no way to learn enough about the product to feel confident in determining what constitutes a fair price.

Prior to the internet, that lack of transparency made most consumers pretty uncomfortable. Hence, most people tried to establish a relationship with a local jeweler, and if that relationship seemed to work, word of mouth would drive business.

Lack of transparency leads to lack of trust, which is detrimental to any sound relationship.

Internet vendors have thrived because the very thing they want....transparency.....is abundant in the online world. Vendors online cannot rely on the old "truuuuuuuuuuuust me" and the handshake to put a client at ease. Online vendors have recognized that building consumer confidence involves educating their clients. Instead of being fearful, online vendors have embraced transparency, recognizing that it underscores their credibility.

Transparency is the thing that makes most vendors successful, regardless of venue.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/20/2008 4:56:38 PM
Author: rob09
Here is the response I got - judge for yourself! LOL


'I write in response to your email. Perhaps you miss understood the gist of the article. Jewelers must get competitive with internet prices. They must consider them a competitor. As for the independent appraisal for $900, if you read the statement, a client told us of a gemologist that HELPS CLIENTS SELECT A DIAMOND FROM THE INTERNET (CONSULTING FEE) AND PROVIDES AN APPRAISAL FOR THIS ITEM.

It is not an appraisal fee. The gemologist is 2 buildings away and actually makes a living doing this. Not a blatant lie. I agree it is ridicules. The article was in response to how customers have felt by salespeople who have not helped the client. The idea of relaying actual 'stories' is that you can communicate without lecturing or selling.

Customers have expressed their dismay of boring sales lectures. The point of 'they can't tell the difference' is that we need to help them, and guide them. It is not so simple. Diamond salespeople have become the lazy ignorant ones not the consumers. This article was a wake up call to what is going on in our industry and how consumers come to us for help and we are failing them.

I appreciate your input. This article was much longer, the editors edit and perhaps much of the spirit of the

article was lost.

Sincerely,

Bret Morris G.G.

Since you’ve got his email, perhaps Mr. Morris would like to participate in this thread. I certainly understand how editors can change the flavor of writing and, speaking as another old donkey, I would certainly like to give him the opportunity to defend his writing since his name *IS* the one at the top of the article.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 5/20/2008 5:24:19 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/20/2008 4:56:38 PM
Author: rob09
Here is the response I got - judge for yourself! LOL


'I write in response to your email. Perhaps you miss understood the gist of the article. Jewelers must get competitive with internet prices. They must consider them a competitor. As for the independent appraisal for $900, if you read the statement, a client told us of a gemologist that HELPS CLIENTS SELECT A DIAMOND FROM THE INTERNET (CONSULTING FEE) AND PROVIDES AN APPRAISAL FOR THIS ITEM.

It is not an appraisal fee. The gemologist is 2 buildings away and actually makes a living doing this. Not a blatant lie. I agree it is ridicules. The article was in response to how customers have felt by salespeople who have not helped the client. The idea of relaying actual 'stories' is that you can communicate without lecturing or selling.

Customers have expressed their dismay of boring sales lectures. The point of 'they can't tell the difference' is that we need to help them, and guide them. It is not so simple. Diamond salespeople have become the lazy ignorant ones not the consumers. This article was a wake up call to what is going on in our industry and how consumers come to us for help and we are failing them.

I appreciate your input. This article was much longer, the editors edit and perhaps much of the spirit of the

article was lost.

Sincerely,

Bret Morris G.G.

Since you’ve got his email, perhaps Mr. Morris would like to participate in this thread. I certainly understand how editors can change the flavor of writing and, speaking as another old donkey, I would certainly like to give him the opportunity to defend his writing since his name *IS* the one at the top of the article.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

That is an interesting point. Maybe if we saw the original text in its entirety... ? BUT, the article that I linked to is what was published so the reader HAS to take it as it comes.


(BTW, I would like to propose a new category -- beyond "Ideal Rock" perhaps we could add "Old Donkey"!)

 

[niceice]

Date: 5/20/2008 5:24:19 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/20/2008 4:56:38 PM
Since you've got his email, perhaps Mr. Morris would like to participate in this thread. I certainly understand how editors can change the flavor of writing and, speaking as another old donkey, I would certainly like to give him the opportunity to defend his writing since his name *IS* the one at the top of the article.

I second that motion! I for one would LOVE to read the article in its entirety before the editors at Modern Jeweler wreaked havoc upon it as that seems to be the claim.

Uh, is a Gemologist who charges a $900.00 "consultation fee" an independent Gemologist or a Retailer? Duh, Yup... Had to ask that one! Let's see, the guy charges $900.00 to "help clients find a diamond online"... And to think that people do that here on PS for other people for FREE

So if this article was supposed to encourage retail jewelers to be better competitors, perhaps it should have been titled "Embrace the Web" or "Winning With The Web" instead of "Winning Against the Web". Given the state of the published re-write, I'm thinking "Getting Spanked by the Web" because this guy's taking a beating here on PS. Actually "Getting Caught Up in the Web" is more befitting the logo here on Price Scope

Hey Bret, if you'd like to actually "learn" how to use the internet to expand the scope of your business through effective marketing "tactics" (I couldn't help it) and get a better understanding of how the web can help you "educate" your customers and drive traffic to your Brick & Mortar location through a Click & Mortar environment, give me a call. It's an honest, well intended offer, no joke. Maybe we can co-author an article for Modern Jeweler, of course, I would reserve the right of final approval on any rewrite that they did, but hey, that's just me

(okay, that WAS a dig)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/20/2008 8:12:31 PM
Author: niceice


I second that motion! I for one would LOVE to read the article in its entirety before the editors at Modern Jeweler wreaked havoc upon it as that seems to be the claim.

Uh, is a Gemologist who charges a $900.00 ''consultation fee'' an independent Gemologist or a Retailer? Duh, Yup... Had to ask that one! Let''s see, the guy charges $900.00 to ''help clients find a diamond online''... And to think that people do that here on PS for other people for FREE day in and day out

So if this article was supposed to encourage retail jewelers to be better competitors, perhaps it should have been titled ''Embrace the Web'' or ''Winning With The Web'' instead of ''Winning Against the Web''. Given the state of the published re-write, I''m thinking ''Getting Spanked by the Web'' because this guy''s taking a beating here on PS. Actually ''Getting Caught up in the web'' is more befitting the logo here on Price Scope

Hey Brett, if you''d like to actually ''learn'' how to use the internet to expand the scope of your business through effective marketing ''tactics'' (I couldn''t help it) and get a better understanding of how the web can help you ''educate'' your customers and drive traffic to your Brick & Mortar location through a Click & Mortar environment, give me a call. It''s an honest, well intended offer, no joke. Maybe we can co-author an article for Modern Jeweler, of course, I would reserve the right of final approval on any rewrite that they did, but hey, that''s just me

(okay, that WAS a dig)

Not anymore!

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I find this interesting being someone who has bought from both the internet and a B&M. The B&M is very good, and is the first store not to make me feel stupid or down play my concerns about a stone. However they are a multigeneration store in my area and pretty traditional, and I don''t think they have a positive feeling about the internet, which to me seems to be lost oportunity because they are so into education they have the potential too be like GOG, ERD or one of the other real/virtual stores that makes good sales topeople who physically cannot acess the location or product. I think to be sucessful in any area, you have to position yourself to reach the most potential customers. There seem to be 2 types of customers. The tactile ones to have to see, feel, with their own eyes before they can put the credit card down, and those (like me) who want to do the research at 10 pm at night, narrow my choices without someone looking over my shoulder, and than make my decision with a good sales person. Jewelers who cannot open their eyes and see that this is just another means of making a sale may suffer in the future if not already doing so.

I think one of the biggests upside of the internet is something people don''t talk about here much. The potential to upgrade. I move every 3 years, so when a jeweler tells me that he will give me a full upgrade on a diamond, it does not mean much to me, because I would have to make a trip to the area to do it. The nice thing about the internet based dealers, is they I know they are used to dealing with the mail and that I have a better chance of actually being about to do that upgrade regardless of my location.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 5/20/2008 2:20:43 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
No no Todd - tell us what you really think!

Todd

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 5/20/2008 4:56:38 PM
Author: rob09
Here is the response I got - judge for yourself! LOL

''I write in response to your email. Perhaps you miss understood the gist of the article. Jewelers must get competitive with internet prices. They must consider them a competitor. As for the independent appraisal for $900, if you read the statement, a client told us of a gemologist that HELPS CLIENTS SELECT A DIAMOND FROM THE INTERNET (CONSULTING FEE) AND PROVIDES AN APPRAISAL FOR THIS ITEM.
It is not an appraisal fee. The gemologist is 2 buildings away and actually makes a living doing this. Not a blatant lie. I agree it is ridicules. The article was in response to how customers have felt by salespeople who have not helped the client. The idea of relaying actual ''stories'' is that you can communicate without lecturing or selling.
Customers have expressed their dismay of boring sales lectures. The point of ''they can''t tell the difference'' is that we need to help them, and guide them. It is not so simple. Diamond salespeople have become the lazy ignorant ones not the consumers. This article was a wake up call to what is going on in our industry and how consumers come to us for help and we are failing them.
I appreciate your input. This article was much longer, the editors edit and perhaps much of the spirit of the
article was lost.
Sincerely,
Bret Morris G.G.

Please link Mr Morris to this thread - may also provide an explanation of a ''wake up call"..

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/20/2008 5:16:11 PM
Author: Allison D.
Having spent the last 21 years in sales myself, I can say that the approach suggested by this article isn''t likely to reap consistent rewards.

I personally believe there is a single factor that has helped online vendors, and it''s the same factor that has hurt B&M jewelers.......TRANSPARENCY.

Prior to the advent of online information, there was no way for consumers to understand why different diamonds command different pricing. There was no way to learn enough about the product to feel confident in determining what constitutes a fair price.

Prior to the internet, that lack of transparency made most consumers pretty uncomfortable. Hence, most people tried to establish a relationship with a local jeweler, and if that relationship seemed to work, word of mouth would drive business.

Lack of transparency leads to lack of trust, which is detrimental to any sound relationship.

Internet vendors have thrived because the very thing they want....transparency.....is abundant in the online world. Vendors online cannot rely on the old ''truuuuuuuuuuuust me'' and the handshake to put a client at ease. Online vendors have recognized that building consumer confidence involves educating their clients. Instead of being fearful, online vendors have embraced transparency, recognizing that it underscores their credibility.

Transparency is the thing that makes most vendors successful, regardless of venue.

utoh its the end of the world because I have to say ditto.
This day will go down in history storm agrees with Alj....

 

[slyons29]

Whew what a FANTASTIC thread! That article made my blood boil but if there were massive edits (and, uh, I sort of edit for a living) I can understand how the "meat" of his article might have been lost.

Kudos to all the pros here though -- the fact is education, service and selection are paramount for a consumer when making such a (normally) large financial investment. If the B&M''s can''t see that the internet is the "wave of the future" (um, though it really was in 199 then they deserve what''s coming to them. Competition, true competiton, comes from knowing and more importantly, UNDERSTANDING, your opponent and then doing something that makes the experiences for the consumer better. It''s called an advantage.

Having recently had the hard sell experience from a B&M who told me that "cut quality is irrelevant in stones smalling than .5 carat, it''s color and clarity that are important"

I felt that I really just wanted to run screaming from the store.

Oh, and I was also told in 3 different B&M stores "Why would you want a platinum setting? A waste of money."

I mean really, what are these guys thinking?

 

[niceice]

Date: 5/21/2008 12:01:23 AM
Author: slyons29

Having recently had the hard sell experience from a B&M who told me that ''cut quality is irrelevant in stones smalling than .5 carat, it''s color and clarity that are important''

I felt that I really just wanted to run screaming from the store.

Oh, and I was also told in 3 different B&M stores ''Why would you want a platinum setting? A waste of money.''

Cut Quality does make a difference in smaller diamonds, I''m glad to read that you realize that even though your local jeweler apparently has never seen a diamond weighing less than a half carat that was cut well

"Platinum is a waste of money" in Jeweler-Speak usually translates to "I don''t carry platinum" and "I don''t have the tools to work on platinum"

Oh, I probably shouldn''t have translated that for you... It was a secret, now I''ve violated the Sacred Order of The Ring and I''m going to be shunned by the retail trade, the entire retail trade, again... Oh darn, another lawsuit for disclosure of proprietary information to the public. Hmmm, the punishment for a repeat offender might be getting boiled in platinum. Oh that''s right, apparently they wouldn''t "waste the money" Ha!

 

[John P]

What is interesting is the shift in climate at our trade gatherings over the past several years. This year's JCK will include four workshops focusing on cyberspace; spanning everything from case studies of retailers with an effective web presence to how to move inventory on eBay.

Only a few years ago it seemed like any discussion about the internet was eschewed. "Unclean!" Now people are asking questions and the pros who long-ago embraced the positive that cyberspace has to offer are being sought for advice.

 

[WinkHPD]

Note: I started this email yesterday and just now found that it never got sent, hope it is still apropos to the conversation.

Me personally I love it when a client comes in who has been looking at the Internet, especially Blue Nile.

I have some tactics I use to sell them.

#1. I show them diamonds under a variety of instruments, most especially the ASET and explain to them what it means. I will show them the Idealscope if they ask and always the microscope, whether they ask or not. I also show them a dog .33ct that should be about a .22ct were it cut correctly. It really stinks, so that is a wonderful thing to be able to show my in house clients. I bought it at the Mall many years ago, and although it is worth nearly nothing in my world, it is one of my most valuable sales tools. (We showed it live in one of our Clue-in videos that we used to do here. Even over the Internet you could see how bad it was.)

#2. I tell them about Pricescope where they can research away to their heart''s content and come ask me questions when they get confused. A surprising number of then tell me it is how they found me to begin with since I do NO advertising in the local media. I rely totally on referrals and word of mouth for my local business.

#3. I show them some of the world''s most beautiful diamonds and give them permission to love stones that are colorless and flawless, as well as lower colors such as H-I-J-K-LMNOP and clarities as low as I1. Never saw an I2 that I thought was worthy of being shown, so I don''t have any of those to show.

I actually think one of the difficulties of shopping on line is that so few places give you permission to love what you love, rather than telling you that you must love something of a higher and better color and clarity. Tastes vary, it is okay to love fluorescence and various colors and clarities.

I do admit to being a cut nut and I rarely have anything here to show that is not of the top cutting by today''s AGS standards (AGS 0''s and 1''s with minor polish or symmetry faults being the cause of the 1, light returns of 0). So, I admit to being a little hypocritical about allowing people to love what they want to love when it comes to cut. I would say that by the time I am through demonstrating cut that well over 90% of the people who shop here love the cuts that I have to offer. The rest are entitled to love what they want to love, they just have a hard time getting it here...

So yes, there are those of us with B&M stores who welcome the Internet traveler and who are not afraid to ethically present our goods without feeling the need to badmouth the competition. Over the years this has resulted in some of my best friends being Internet competitors whom I strongly admire and respect. Of course, this has also resulted in me becoming one of those feared Internet competitors, but strangely enough I do not fear myself at all.

Wink

 

[niceice]

Date: 5/21/2008 12:38:00 PM
Author: Wink
Over the years this has resulted in some of my best friends being Internet competitors whom I strongly admire and respect. Of course, this has also resulted in me becoming one of those feared Internet competitors, but strangely enough I do not fear myself at all.

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid

And be quiet, be vewy, vewy qwiet ''cuz we''re hunting wabbits!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/20/2008 12:44:26 PM
Author: niceice
I find it ironic that a publication calling itself ''Modern Jeweler'' repeatedly publishes articles which attempt to provide retail jewelers with ways to combat internet sales of diamonds rather than embrace the internet as a ''modern'' method of advertising their products, services, market advantages and strengths. Another article featured in Modern Jeweler a few months ago titled ''Love at First Sight'' was discussed on Price Scope on the thread Confused Bridal Magazine Advice and the advice provided within that article is just as ''amazing''

I find this comment amusing:
''If a customer is considering buying on-line, I employ a few tactics and exploit a few weaknesses of on-line retailers. First, point out that Internet pricing is confusing.''

''Tactics'' represent a method of sales which is only employed by people who are only interested in closing the sale as opposed to actually solving the needs of their client. Professional sales people have an authentic interest in helping their clients find the product or solution that best solves their needs and which fits their situation. Sometimes that means NOT selling what we have to offer to a client, sometimes it means referring a client to a trusted competitor who represents what that particular client needs or wants. ''Tactics'' are employed by sales people who are SKEEZY!

He goes on to verbally vomit:
''I pick a stone search comparable to the stone they have described and ask them why is one 2 carat G/VS1 ideal cut priced at $24,500 and another $31,500? They can’t answer. They don’t know. They always tell me about the cheaper one.'' blah, blah, blah, followed by ''I let them draw their own conclusions. They now wonder what is wrong with the cheaper one.''

Hey Mr. Modern Jeweler ''guest editor'' Bret Morris, here''s a concept... Why not provide your clients with an explanation as to why two diamonds which you claim to be similar are priced differently? Why not provide your customers with a little ''real'' knowledge? A little in-depth education that is worth something? Are you afraid that your ''tactics'' won''t work if you actually provided your clients with a factual explanation as to the reasons why diamonds which appear to be similar are priced differently?

''I relay my experience of a client telling me of a gemologist who helps consumers locate a diamond on-line and gives them an appraisal for a fee of $900.''

This guy is killing me! Show me a person here on PS who would pay $900.00 for an appraisal?!?! Show me ONE. I have a story... It''s about the online client who looked around here on PS and educated themselves about diamonds because the ''tactics'' used by their local jewelers made them uncomfortable and left them feeling like there was more to the story... They contacted us for a quote and came to the realization that they couldn''t afford the ideal cut (only) options that we sell, but they liked what we had to say, so they asked who else we thought they could trust, we mentioned a few other online dealers who we were comfortable with... A few days later they sent a lab report to us and said ''what do you think about this diamond from Blue Nile'' and the diamond had potential, so we told them so and we told them why we thought it was a viable option - the proportions were outside of our preferred range, outside the scope of our selection criteria, but it had ''potential'' so they brought it in with the understanding that it was a ''needle in the haystack'' type of possibility... As it turns out, they didn''t like the stone, so they returned it to Blue Nile who refunded their money without question, including the shipping. Out of pocket expense = $0 Bret, not $900.00 because (apparently) none of the appraisers who you know were involved. Then they found a diamond on White Flash and again, they ran it by us and we said ''looks good, lots of potential with this one!'' and they brought it in, and they liked it... So they ran it by a local gemologist who charged them $120.00 and he said ''it''s a keeper!'' so they kept it. $120.00 is a far cry from $900.00 Bucko! And we''re not the only online dealers who provide our clients with advice regarding diamonds that clients are interested in from other vendors, I know this because our customers tell us that ''this online dealer'' or ''that online dealer'' liked the paper on your stone and suggested I buy it... Now that''s community, that''s customer care, that is NOT ''tactics''.

I can''t read this garbage, it makes me itch. Proof that anybody can be an ''author'' if they can type. I hope that lots of traditional retailers read his article and take it to heart, more clients for Nice Ice and our trusted competitors like GOG, WF and Wink Jones who are ''Modern Jewelers'' embracing the internet for the marketing tool that it is and providing our customers with online education by regularly adding informative, educational articles to our web sites and contributing to VAST online resources like PS to dampen the effect of ''tactics'' like this one featured in Modern Jeweler. My journalism teacher would have called this article ''yellow, irresponsible, unfounded journalism'' and referred to the ''publication'' as a ''rag''

Yes, each of the people you mention who are prominent Pricescope Vendors are also B&M jewelers who welcome real people to walk into their premises. (I am not sure how WF works this, but I know that they accept local clients, whether walk-ins or by appointment I do not know.) And you of course!

It seems there are some truly Modern Jewelers here on Pricescope.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/20/2008 11:16:13 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/20/2008 5:16:11 PM
Author: Allison D.
Having spent the last 21 years in sales myself, I can say that the approach suggested by this article isn''t likely to reap consistent rewards.

I personally believe there is a single factor that has helped online vendors, and it''s the same factor that has hurt B&M jewelers.......TRANSPARENCY.

Prior to the advent of online information, there was no way for consumers to understand why different diamonds command different pricing. There was no way to learn enough about the product to feel confident in determining what constitutes a fair price.

Prior to the internet, that lack of transparency made most consumers pretty uncomfortable. Hence, most people tried to establish a relationship with a local jeweler, and if that relationship seemed to work, word of mouth would drive business.

Lack of transparency leads to lack of trust, which is detrimental to any sound relationship.

Internet vendors have thrived because the very thing they want....transparency.....is abundant in the online world. Vendors online cannot rely on the old ''truuuuuuuuuuuust me'' and the handshake to put a client at ease. Online vendors have recognized that building consumer confidence involves educating their clients. Instead of being fearful, online vendors have embraced transparency, recognizing that it underscores their credibility.

Transparency is the thing that makes most vendors successful, regardless of venue.

utoh its the end of the world because I have to say ditto.
This day will go down in history storm agrees with Alj....

What is this world coming to?

Of course I find myself agreeing with both of you...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/21/2008 1:01:58 PM
Author: niceice

Date: 5/21/2008 12:38:00 PM
Author: Wink
Over the years this has resulted in some of my best friends being Internet competitors whom I strongly admire and respect. Of course, this has also resulted in me becoming one of those feared Internet competitors, but strangely enough I do not fear myself at all.

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid

And be quiet, be vewy, vewy qwiet ''cuz we''re hunting wabbits!

Wabbits? Wabbits, doze cute liddle bundy wabbits?

Wish I knew where to find the picture I saw of the little wabbit with big sharp teeth from an old Bug''s Bunny cartoon. That would fix those wabbit hunters!