Mass shooting du jour

[Calliecake]

I remember hearing last month after the Vegas shooting that people were concerned for victims medical bills that were uninsured.

Just looked it up. Illinois has a Crime Victim Compensation Act. There is a $27,000 award cap. This will be gone very quickly if someone is seriously injured.

 

[Calliecake]

As of this moment 26 people were killed in the Texas shooting today. Many more injured.

 

[Calliecake]

Daily Mail just reported the shooter was a married 26 year old white male who was dishonorably discharged from the US Air Force.

 

[Tekate]

Poignant, true, sad and a reality. No use talking about it. No use trying to do anything about it.

Maria--Yup! #thoughtsandprayers #blessed I wonder if they make gun models called "Thoughts and Prayers Special" or "Blessed"?

 

[Matata]

White male, what a surprise
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...er-identified-as-white-male-in-early-twenties

 

[whitewave]

I have a question. It's related, but not quite on topic. I'm happy to start a new thread if that's a better option.

When someone is shot and injured what happens to them medically? I know there is ACA and I'm under the impression that healthcare in the US has improved though I believe it's still insufficient and expensive. The BBC online reports a child having been shot 4 times and currently undergoing surgery. Let's say an incident like this causes life changing injuries. Who pays for the medical care and coverage required? Before the ACA would it have been considered a pre-existing condition when applying for different coverage in the future? Did the ACA change that and how?

Pre existing conditions were accepted during open enrollments of health insurance (like with work), with a period of 30 or 60 days before insurance would pay. This was usually when you started a job with insurance or during an "open enrollment" period where you could change coverage within what your job offered. That is how it was 20 years ago as I experienced it.

Now, it depends on what insurance you have, what your deductible is, what your maximum out of pocket is, etc, and whether or not you have insurance because many people still won't buy it.

There is no way to tell what an individual policy may or may not cover.

When my DH had cancer, we had a $2500.00 maximum out of pocket, so once we paid $2,500.00 everything else was covered at 100% for the rest of the year.

 

[AGBF]

If the person who committed the crime was a terrorist we would be hearing that we need to build a wall...

You and I are on the same page, Callie. I wrote above, "only crimes by Arabs are terrorism according to President Trump".

That really has to change, you know. We The People cannot let Trump and Paul Ryan and the other Republicans get away with it forever. It is not only racist, it is grammatically incorrect.

I mean, the crime was, actually, committed by a terrorist and Trump is not the Issue Definer. Trump is not allowed to say who is and who is not a terrorist. Terrorists are people who commit acts of terror...like...um...committing acts of mass murder.

AGBF

 

[ksinger]

You and I are on the same page, Callie. I wrote above, "only crimes by Arabs are terrorism according to President Trump".

That really has to change, you know. We The People cannot let Trump and Paul Ryan and the other Republicans get away with it forever. It is not only racist, it is grammatically incorrect.

I mean, the crime was, actually, committed by a terrorist and Trump is not the Issue Definer. Trump is not allowed to say who is and who is not a terrorist. Terrorists are people who commit acts of terror...like...um...committing acts of mass murder.

AGBF

Um, no. Mass murder is necessarily terrorism. Everyone tosses that term around, and applies it to just about every violent act, but terrorism actually has a real definition, "...the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

I'm not seeing evidence of political aims - as in intimidating authority into doing anything (other than death by cop for the perpetrator) in most of these mass shootings. They do seem to have a larger theme - which is aggrieved entitlement and super fragile white masculinity, but political aims? Not seeing it. Bottom line, not everything that terrifies me, is terrorism.

 

[AGBF]

You may be right that they are not terrorism, ksinger. But these explosions by white American males, if they have historical precedent, and they may somewhere in some society, appear to lack any reason for existing at all. They do inspire as much terror in the populace as any act by a terrorist, who, by definition, has political motives. Let's give them a name that allows us to be sure that no one can impugn a terrorist more for the same acts one of these white American males commits.

In other words, today's guy's shooting is as bad as that of anyone who shot for political reasons. Only if someone shot for political reasons, he would be turned on by Republicans. Then there would be calls for change in immigration laws.

AGBF

 

[kenny]

White male, what a surprise
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...er-identified-as-white-male-in-early-twenties

OUCH.
I'm a white male.

 

[Matata]

OUCH.
I'm a white male.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

 

[Karl_K]

A good person with a gun engaged him and sent him running by the sounds of it.

It would not have happened at my church.
I doubt he would have got more than 1 shot off if even that.
Not going into specifics on an open board.

 

[AGBF]

A good person with a gun engaged him and sent him running by the sounds of it.

It would not have happened at my church.
I doubt he would have got more than 1 shot off if even that.
Not going into specifics on an open board.

People shouldn't shoot other people in church.

That didn't come out the way I wanted it to come out. I meant that no one should enter a church with violence on his mind.

 

[Arkteia]

Daily Mail just reported the shooter was a married 26 year old white male who was dishonorably discharged from the US Air Force.

And here is a question, how could he even obtain AR-15 after being dishonorably discharged?

 

[Arkteia]

A good person with a gun engaged him and sent him running by the sounds of it.

It would not have happened at my church.
I doubt he would have got more than 1 shot off if even that.
Not going into specifics on an open board.

Today my husband said, "Don't go to church". Would probably work even better than attending your church.

And seriously - it does not matter if in your church he would have been engaged after one shot. Because if that one shot was a pregnant mother of three (one of Kelley's victims), it would seem enough to me.

We are trying to understand what we need to do for prevention. Your point is harm reduction - 5 people versus 27, for example. It is a totally different issue.

 

[kenny]

...
It would not have happened at my church.
I doubt he would have got more than 1 shot off if even that.
Not going into specifics on an open board.

Specifics?
I see only 2 possibilities:
1. Everyone at your church carries a gun, cocked and loaded and safety off, at your services.
2. God protects your congregation.

 

[Rhea]

I remember hearing last month after the Vegas shooting that people were concerned for victims medical bills that were uninsured.

Just looked it up. Illinois has a Crime Victim Compensation Act. There is a $27,000 award cap. This will be gone very quickly if someone is seriously injured.

I read your original post late last night before it was edited for specifics over night.

To me, that seems like a very low amount. I have no idea what this type of injury would cost, but it's the lasting physical and mental effects as well as the physical damage. I don't think $27,000 would get you much surgery, physio, ongoing appointments for nerve, muscle, ligament damage as well as any counselling appointments. Basically it just sucks. I honestly and truly believe that it might be better to die in an incident like this than to have on-going problems which could easily bankrupt you therefore affecting your ability to get a job, housing and other non-related medical attention. That I even think that makes me feel heartbroken and ashamed, but looking at facts regarding the price of medical care and the growing frequency of gun violence without any steps being taken to stop it I'm not sure how else to think.

Pre existing conditions were accepted during open enrollments of health insurance (like with work), with a period of 30 or 60 days before insurance would pay. This was usually when you started a job with insurance or during an "open enrollment" period where you could change coverage within what your job offered. That is how it was 20 years ago as I experienced it.

Now, it depends on what insurance you have, what your deductible is, what your maximum out of pocket is, etc, and whether or not you have insurance because many people still won't buy it.

There is no way to tell what an individual policy may or may not cover.

When my DH had cancer, we had a $2500.00 maximum out of pocket, so once we paid $2,500.00 everything else was covered at 100% for the rest of the year.

I can imagine someone who has serious injuries from a gunshot having incredibly long-lasting physical problems from them. It could be multiple surgeries and physio for the rest of your life. Plus on-going counselling. I don't understand how surviving an incident like serious gun violence wouldn't potentially bankrupt you. Fair enough if you have good insurance and want to keep your job, as it sounds like you do, but a child without their own insurance and who needs to complete education and get a job all the while potentially having gaps in insurance or medical care due to rules sounds very dangerous for their health, expensive financial for them, and potentially a powder keg to cause more societal problems.


I'm just guessing that we'll find out some of the answers to my questions in the form of documentaries following the lives of victims within the next couple of decades. As gun violence increases and there are more victims I believe some investigative journalist will want to take on the story. I vote for Ross Kemp.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Oh, America, what are you doing? All hopes for a better future lay with you. Now you are chewing you own fingers bloody?

 

[OreoRosies86]

A good person with a gun engaged him and sent him running by the sounds of it.

It would not have happened at my church.
I doubt he would have got more than 1 shot off if even that.
Not going into specifics on an open board.

"It would not have happened at my church" no one thinks someone with a gun is going to destroy their life while they are in church/a movie theater/a first grade classroom/at work. That, like your church, does not make them immune to it. So... you have armed gunmen in the choir loft? The altar boys are packing heat? Preacher keeps an assault rifle near the collection plate? God thinks your church is the best one and this church in Texas just wasn't #blessed? A gun and a bible might make you feel better and give you a vague sense of safety but to say "It wouldn't have happened at my church" is incredibly arrogant.

Over 20 people were gone by the time some other churchgoer with a gun ran after him. Guns guns guns guns. Slow claps on your logic and that's about all I can muster.

 

[OreoRosies86]

"A woman who was about five months pregnant and three of her children were killed. The pregnant woman's brother-in-law and his young child were also killed."

Why am I still getting angry about this? Gun nuts don't want change, they want more guns. You really can't fight ignorance.

"This isn't a guns situation," Trump said. "This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It's a very, very sad event."

 

[cmd2014]

I really wish America would severely strict gun ownership. Here in Australia, yes we still have guns and yes people can own them, but it’s difficult and restricted. Accordingly we have extremely low gun related incidents. Of course we still have crime and still have mentally unstable or drug affected people doing bad things. However when our police attend crime scenes, the usual weapon is a knife, not a gun. Yes, knives kill people but you can’t kill 20 people in less than a minute and from 20 or more meters away. Americans will say “I want to feel safer in my home or out and about”. How can anyone feel “safe” when anyone and everyone could be carrying a gun? Protect yourself during a robbery? The robber has a gun and you have a gun, it’s unlikely to end well. We still have robberies but ordinary robbers firstly don’t feel emboldened by the gun they carry, making them more inclined to commit an offence and they don’t feel “very trigger nervous” because the homeowner has a gun too making them more likely to use their gun. Yes, we might have our TV stolen but no one killed or got killed in the process.

Ditto here in Canada. We have unstable people here too. We just don’t arm them with assault weapons.

 

[Tekate]

Trump is an idiot. The guy in the city was also insane let's be honest here. Saying Allah Akbah isn't 'normal' when one is killing people unless one is nuts. This guy was a white, 26 year old, insane, male, in a little town outside of SA. Many hispanics in that area, we shall see if he had an ulterior motive other than just his all around crazy, mentally ill self. Let me say, this is terroism. Home grown, nutzoid terrorism and if people think differently then they are wrong, as Trump is.

By the time someone get's over the shock of a shooting rifle and get's their gun out of their pocket and shoots 20 people would be dead. It's nonsensical. Violence - God - Islam - Christianity.. these things seem to be going hand in hand in America. Such a shame.

"A woman who was about five months pregnant and three of her children were killed. The pregnant woman's brother-in-law and his young child were also killed."

Why am I still getting angry about this? Gun nuts don't want change, they want more guns. You really can't fight ignorance.

"This isn't a guns situation," Trump said. "This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It's a very, very sad event."

 

[ksinger]

"It would not have happened at my church" no one thinks someone with a gun is going to destroy their life while they are in church/a movie theater/a first grade classroom/at work. That, like your church, does not make them immune to it. So... you have armed gunmen in the choir loft? The altar boys are packing heat? Preacher keeps an assault rifle near the collection plate? God thinks your church is the best one and this church in Texas just wasn't #blessed? A gun and a bible might make you feel better and give you a vague sense of safety but to say "It wouldn't have happened at my church" is incredibly arrogant.

Over 20 people were gone by the time some other churchgoer with a gun ran after him. Guns guns guns guns. Slow claps on your logic and that's about all I can muster.

About that assumption that "such a tragedy won't happen here because we're prepared" (aka - we're smarter and/or more righteous), right after 9/11, there was a Frontline with various religious leaders all weighing in on the massive tragedy. I have never ever forgotten this quote from Rabbi Brad Hirschfield. It's not about the exact situation we face today, obviously, but I believe it applies nonetheless. I say this, because invariably there will be someone who not only says it won't happen to them, but who will then say aloud when it does happen, that they somehow avoided being a dead victim of the latest hail of gunfire, because the hand of God was protecting them personally.

"
Since September 11th, people keep asking me, "Where was God?" And they think because I'm a rabbi, I have answers. And I actually think that my job as a rabbi is to help them live with those questions. If God's ways are mysterious, live with the mystery. It's upsetting. It's scary. It's painful. It's deep. And it's interesting. No plan. That's what mystery is. It's all of those things.

You want plan? Then tell me about plan. But if you're going to tell me about how the plan saved you, you better also be able to explain how the plan killed them. And the test of that has nothing to do with saying it in your synagogue or your church. The test of that has to do with going and saying it to the person who just buried someone and look in their eyes and tell them God's plan was to blow your loved one apart. Look at them and tell them that God's plan was that their children should go to bed every night for the rest of their lives without a parent. And if you can say that, well, at least you're honest. I don't worship the same God, but that at least has integrity.

It's just it's too easy. That's my problem with the answer. Not that I think they're being inauthentic when people say it or being dishonest, it's just too damn easy. It's easy because it gets God off the hook. And it's easy because it gets their religious beliefs off the hook. And right now, everything is on the hook.
"

 

[Snowdrop13]

"A woman who was about five months pregnant and three of her children were killed. The pregnant woman's brother-in-law and his young child were also killed."

Why am I still getting angry about this? Gun nuts don't want change, they want more guns. You really can't fight ignorance.

"This isn't a guns situation," Trump said. "This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It's a very, very sad event."

Utterly, totally heartbreaking. A whole family wiped out by an idiot with a gun.

 

[OreoRosies86]

About that assumption that "such a tragedy won't happen here because we're prepared" (aka - we're smarter and/or more righteous), right after 9/11, there was a Frontline with various religious leaders all weighing in on the massive tragedy. I have never ever forgotten this quote from Rabbi Brad Hirschfield. It's not about the exact situation we face today, obviously, but I believe it applies nonetheless. I say this, because invariably there will be someone who not only says it won't happen to them, but who will then say aloud when it does happen, that they somehow avoided being a dead victim of the latest hail of gunfire, because the hand of God was protecting them personally.

"
Since September 11th, people keep asking me, "Where was God?" And they think because I'm a rabbi, I have answers. And I actually think that my job as a rabbi is to help them live with those questions. If God's ways are mysterious, live with the mystery. It's upsetting. It's scary. It's painful. It's deep. And it's interesting. No plan. That's what mystery is. It's all of those things.

You want plan? Then tell me about plan. But if you're going to tell me about how the plan saved you, you better also be able to explain how the plan killed them. And the test of that has nothing to do with saying it in your synagogue or your church. The test of that has to do with going and saying it to the person who just buried someone and look in their eyes and tell them God's plan was to blow your loved one apart. Look at them and tell them that God's plan was that their children should go to bed every night for the rest of their lives without a parent. And if you can say that, well, at least you're honest. I don't worship the same God, but that at least has integrity.

It's just it's too easy. That's my problem with the answer. Not that I think they're being inauthentic when people say it or being dishonest, it's just too damn easy. It's easy because it gets God off the hook. And it's easy because it gets their religious beliefs off the hook. And right now, everything is on the hook.
"

Thank you Ksinger. What more is there to say? That says it all so perfectly. Have some integrity if you're going to say "That happened to you but it wouldn't have happened to me."

 

[Karl_K]

Specifics?
I see only 2 possibilities:
1. Everyone at your church carries a gun, cocked and loaded and safety off, at your services.
2. God protects your congregation.

I am not going to share specifics but there are members in law enforcement and IL has a CCW law.
Carry is also legal in a private dwelling without a CCW which a Church is considered.

Kenny I know you don't like discussing religion so out of respect I avoid it with you but you directly asked so I will answer.

Yes God protects us.
Part of that protection is living in a country were the right to self defense is a right and the tools are available to do so.
Part of that protection is Men and Woman who are willing to put their life at stake to protect others.
It does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to the people there.

 

[Calliecake]

Karl, I laughed at the arrogance of your comment. IMAGINE being in the church when this shooting began. People would have been running to get out of that church. My guess is there was probably a back entrance people would have tried to use. Now imagine MORE people firing guns. Yeah that would have insured everyone's safety. Oh let me guess, your God would have stepped in and saved everyone. PLEASE

Your state (Illinois) and your party just, recently had a Republican fund raiser where an AK-15 was one of the raffle prizes. This was 2 weeks after the Vegas shooting.

The bottom line is this country values their guns more than they do human life. It's ridiculous that your right to have a gun is more important than others people right to live their life.

Maybe we should begin picketing all gun shops like they do abortion clinics.

Our ahole of a president actually said this wasn't a gun problem.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Wow. I can't. It's like talking to Humpty Dumpty.

 

[whitewave]

New tidbit: it was his ex-wife's family's parish church.

 

[jaaron]

I am not going to share specifics but there are members in law enforcement and IL has a CCW law.
Carry is also legal in a private dwelling without a CCW which a Church is considered.

Kenny I know you don't like discussing religion so out of respect I avoid it with you but you directly asked so I will answer.

Yes God protects us.
Part of that protection is living in a country were the right to self defense is a right and the tools are available to do so.
Part of that protection is Men and Woman who are willing to put their life at stake to protect others.
It does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to the people there.

I will try to be restrained because the gun issue makes me see red. As far as I know, the law enforcement community is, in fact, pretty split on the loosening of gun laws/regulations. For the most part, it makes their jobs a lot harder.

I am guessing that you've never been in a mass shooting situation, Karl, and I hope you (and none of us ever are) but two things I think I can promise you are that it will not be like you think it is and you will not behave the way you think you will.

Back when I was a young reporter, I was assigned to the police beat in a city--this was back before the guns people routinely carried were the kind that could kill so many people in such a short time. I spent a lot of time riding around in the back of a cop car, listening to and talking with numerous LE officers that year. And you know who panics in a shooting situation? Law enforcement. Trained, armed, prepared law enforcement. Not sharpshooters and swat teams who come in when the situation is already established and have a seat outside the table, but the men and women who come in in the middle or are there at the outset of a situation. I've never been in this kind of situation, but I have been on the periphery of some unfolding things. In much lesser situations than this, there is chaos and panic, people scream and trample, distract, it can be hard to tell who is the originator, electric lights are lost, entrances are blocked. More guns means more chance of innocent people ending up in the crossfire.

IMO, 99.9 times out of 100, the belief that your own cool head and expert marksmanship will prevail are misguided- like watching Federer on TV and assuming you could hold your own against him because you won the cup at your local tennis club.

I wil also add, I believe that at some point people will see reason and realise that our right to live in a society where we don't have to fear for our children's lives every time they go to a movie or a mall (or school) is a greater right than that of people to carry weapons of mass destruction (which is what these guns are) in their pockets.