Low LGF%? Need advice on this stone

[pyramid]

Thanks Storm

I can understand that about the fire being more spread out. I think I was focusing on the 34.8 because I thought the crown was too low on 34 but in real life size it looks fine now. I really think the 34.8 may not be for me because of maybe more fire and less brilliance.

This thread tonight has really cleared up my mind and made me sure now that I probably do have the right stone, the photoshop from whatmeworry and your wire drawings have confirmed it. Thank you to you Storm.

I think with me it was not so much the angles, so I must have known the diamond itself looked good performance ways, it was more how the angles changed, I thought - well they do but not as much as I thought - the height of the crown and depth of the pavillion. Looking at the angle gradient difference in the photos does not bother me because I knew from Serg's work and from what Garry has taught us about the inverse crown and pavillion angles compensating for each other. That is why it was the view from the profile that everyone was thinking probably what was I on about instead of the performance of the stone.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/21/2007 11:20:51 PM
Author: Pyramid
Thanks Storm

I can understand that about the fire being more spread out. I think I was focusing on the 34.8 because I thought the crown was too low on 34 but in real life size it looks fine now. I really think the 34.8 may not be for me because of maybe more fire and less brilliance.

This thread tonight has really cleared up my mind and made me sure now that I probably do have the right stone, the photoshop from whatmeworry and your wire drawings have confirmed it. Thank you to you Storm.

Your welcome.

 

[pyramid]

Date: 7/21/2007 11:16:25 PM
Author: Wink


Did not go to the second link, but the first link was talking about heavy diamonds with 4- 5% girdles if I remember the numbers correctly. It was correctly identifying them as stones cut for weight, not for beauty, and they were not anywhere near ideal with that type of girdle thickness.

Wink

Oh I never digested that bit.

 

[pyramid]

Date: 7/21/2007 11:14:37 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/21/2007 8:20:37 PM
Author: Pyramid
Strmrdr

You have said many times about your sweetspot is the 34/41 combo, why do you like it, is it because it is just as good as 34.8/40.8 although pavillion is deeper, or are you seeing something in the personality you like better, can you put that into words or is it just something you see when you look at the stones?

edit: assuming a tight stone with fine optical symmetry.

It is hard to describe in words.
Its the combination of very high brightness combined with fine fire.
They dance just fine when moved.
somewhat directional white light return but not too directional
(fire tends to spread out more than white light when returned from the stone)
An even shallower crown and a larger table might be a little brighter but you lose the fire.
All combos are a compromise.
To me 41/34 is a great compromise.
Too go with a higher crown(keeping the lgf% the same) you may get a little more fire at the expense of white light return but that''s about it.

34.8/40.8 has its own compromises.

Storm what in your opinion are the compromises of 34.8/40.8?

 

[michaelgem]

Strm,

Your posts are a terrific “Consumer’s Report” of all that has gone on in these two threads. I want to tie my thoughts together by responding to your following challenge:

I say so isn't enough to change my mind no matter who says it.
Lets see the proof.
The proof that a 34/41 combo can be as good as or better than other combos comes from all the tools I have used and my eyeballs back it up.
So no matter how one company tries to demonism it ain't going to work. Strmrdr

The Accordance article demonstrates / offers proof that the center point of the AGS Ideal and the GIA Excellent sweet spot for pavilion, crown and table is closest to a 41-pavilion angle, 34-crown angle, and a 56% table. This finding is a remarkable accordance in view of all the disagreement between the two organizations.

The “real time” bit of investigation whose results are the comparison repeated below, along with the “real time” research by Sergey concerning path length and saturation are the proofs you demand that support and reinforce your proofs that “a 34/41 combo can be as good as or better than other combo”. I am going to refer to this combo as the Centroid Ideal to differentiate it from the 40.75, 34.5 Tolkowsky theoretical Ideal and the 41, 35 Morse Ideal. The centroid in physics is a point at a body’s center-of-mass.

Someone has got to see significance in the fact that your tools and eyeballs found this combo of 41, 34 as good or better than others, as did GIA, AGS, Ideal cutters and my “direct assessment” of light performance. The accordance is that everyone agrees that this one combo is Ideal, and, son-of-a-gun, it happens to be at the center of both AGS’s and GIA’s very different sweet spot ranges.

At the very least, if you had to standardize Ideal to be a single combo, this one has as much or more validity/proof as Tolkowsky’s or Morse’s combinations. This takes away nothing from those Ideal/Excellent combinations, except to debunk the myth of the assumed “holy grail” peak at 40.75, 34.5. No more of a peak exists there than it does at 41, 34.

The validity of this enclosed example of “direct assessment” of diamond light performance hinges on its being done in a representation of typical illumination.

This demonstration or proof validates my statement that in some respects 41, 34 can be shown, as in this simulation, to be preferred and thought superior in a small way by some observers.

Please observe that on average, the Centroid Ideal on the right is brighter with less evidence of head obstruction especially in the mains (arrows). Head obstruction causes the mains to be darker appearing in the 40.75, 34.5. Because of this, I see the 41, 34 as a somewhat brighter diamond that has, if anything, more fire, not less.

Note that the dark mains of both diamonds will flash to bright as the diamonds are moved around and tilted resulting in fire and scintillation.

All this is why I conclude that:

While I do not propose replacing 40.75, 34.5 with the Centroid Ideal as any “Holy Grail”, it is clear from Strms, Sergey's, Rhino's and my proofs that there is credible evidence that if there were a holy grail angle combination, it could be 41, 34 just as well as 40.75, 34.5.

If someone has to have some "warm fuzzy" feeling that they have the single best combination, I suggest the Centroid Ideal rather than the established Tolkowsky Ideal with its demonstrably flawed theoretical underpinnings.

On the other hand, you can get the same warm fuzzy feeling by sticking with the Tolkowsky orthodoxy, which has been the established standard with GIA and AGS for over a half century. That was until the dawning of the new era of "direct assessment" of a diamond cut's beauty in terms of brilliance, fire and sparkle. This caused the evolutionary rethinking that has resulted in both GIA's and AGS's new grading systems.

Ideal regards,

Michael

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2007 10:24:48 AM
Author: Pyramid


Storm what in your opinion are the compromises of 34.8/40.8?

Its not a bad combo.
depending on lgf% its a different mix of white light/fire/directional light return compared to 41/34.
Too my eyes a properly cut 34/41 performs slightly more like I prefer a RB to perform.
Its not a huge difference and very lighting dependant.
Under a lot of conditions there wont be much visible difference between a 34/41,34.8/40.8,34.5/40.7 with the same make in other conditions the different personalities will show.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/22/2007 10:24:48 AM
Author: Pyramid

Date: 7/21/2007 11:14:37 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/21/2007 8:20:37 PM

Author: Pyramid

Strmrdr


You have said many times about your sweetspot is the 34/41 combo, why do you like it, is it because it is just as good as 34.8/40.8 although pavillion is deeper, or are you seeing something in the personality you like better, can you put that into words or is it just something you see when you look at the stones?

edit: assuming a tight stone with fine optical symmetry.


It is hard to describe in words.

Its the combination of very high brightness combined with fine fire.

They dance just fine when moved.

somewhat directional white light return but not too directional

(fire tends to spread out more than white light when returned from the stone)

An even shallower crown and a larger table might be a little brighter but you lose the fire.

All combos are a compromise.

To me 41/34 is a great compromise.

Too go with a higher crown(keeping the lgf% the same) you may get a little more fire at the expense of white light return but that''s about it.


34.8/40.8 has its own compromises.

Storm what in your opinion are the compromises of 34.8/40.8?

When AGS and GIA finished their cut research, they both came up with stones that they felt performed well enough to be included in the group of top performing stones.

While I am a well known proponent of the AGS system as I believe they have done a better overall job of not only picking the top performers, but of sharing with us the metric and the methods that they used, I have to say that all of the stones in both GIA''s and AGS''s top cut grades far surpass the average stone seen on a hand in this or any other country today.

In 1975, the year I graduated from GIA there were only three well known companies in this country that specialized in Ideal cut stone, Kiger, Keppie, and Kaplan. Now there are at least two hundred cutters cutting the H&A type stones, although many of those cutters don''t do it very well.

For perfect light return, anything less than a mirror is going to constitute some sort of compromise. For beauty, such a stone would be a total loss, unless you need a small compact mirror to check for zits, or the quality of your makeup.

You have acquired a wealth of information but I fear that you have not internalized it well enough to make your own decision and that relying on any of us to do that for you will always leave you worried about what the next person will say.

Although it is not practical for you at this moment, when it is I urge you to go to Antwerp and look at many stones from many cutters in many cut parameters and even some not top grade stones to see what your eyes can see and decide what your eyes and your heart like. At this time you are like my young children used to be, pouring iodine on their cuts to see if they still hurt.

I say this not with malice, but with concern for you. It hurts my heart to watch you struggle so with what should be a joyous moment in time. I surmise, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, that this is no longer fun for you. If I am right, then step away from the pain, let it heal, then, when and if you ever want to have fun at this, hop that short flight from London to Brussels, catch either the bus or the train to Antwerp, they both drop you off less than three blocks from the diamond district, and have some fun!

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/22/2007 11:03:56 AM
Author: michaelgem

Strm,

Your posts are a terrific “Consumer’s Report” of all that has gone on in these two threads. I want to tie my thoughts together by responding to your following challenge:

I say so isn''t enough to change my mind no matter who says it.
Lets see the proof.
The proof that a 34/41 combo can be as good as or better than other combos comes from all the tools I have used and my eyeballs back it up.
So no matter how one company tries to demonism it ain''t going to work. Strmrdr

The Accordance article demonstrates / offers proof that the center point of the AGS Ideal and the GIA Excellent sweet spot for pavilion, crown and table is closest to a 41-pavilion angle, 34-crown angle, and a 56% table. This finding is a remarkable accordance in view of all the disagreement between the two organizations.

The “real time” bit of investigation whose results are the comparison repeated below, along with the “real time” research by Sergey concerning path length and saturation are the proofs you demand that support and reinforce your proofs that “a 34/41 combo can be as good as or better than other combo”. I am going to refer to this combo as the Centroid Ideal to differentiate it from the 40.75, 34.5 Tolkowsky theoretical Ideal and the 41, 35 Morse Ideal. The centroid in physics is a point at a body’s center-of-mass.

Someone has got to see significance in the fact that your tools and eyeballs found this combo of 41, 34 as good or better than others, as did GIA, AGS, Ideal cutters and my “direct assessment” of light performance. The accordance is that everyone agrees that this one combo is Ideal, and, son-of-a-gun, it happens to be at the center of both AGS’s and GIA’s very different sweet spot ranges.

At the very least, if you had to standardize Ideal to be a single combo, this one has as much or more validity/proof as Tolkowsky’s or Morse’s combinations. This takes away nothing from those Ideal/Excellent combinations, except to debunk the myth of the assumed “holy grail” peak at 40.75, 34.5. No more of a peak exists there than it does at 41, 34.

The validity of this enclosed example of “direct assessment” of diamond light performance hinges on its being done in a representation of typical illumination.

This demonstration or proof validates my statement that in some respects 41, 34 can be shown, as in this simulation, to be preferred and thought superior in a small way by some observers.

Please observe that on average, the Centroid Ideal on the right is brighter with less evidence of head obstruction especially in the mains (arrows). Head obstruction causes the mains to be darker appearing in the 40.75, 34.5. Because of this, I see the 41, 34 as a somewhat brighter diamond that has, if anything, more fire, not less.

Note that the dark mains of both diamonds will flash to bright as the diamonds are moved around and tilted resulting in fire and scintillation.

All this is why I conclude that:

While I do not propose replacing 40.75, 34.5 with the Centroid Ideal as any “Holy Grail”, it is clear from Strms, Sergey''s, Rhino''s and my proofs that there is credible evidence that if there were a holy grail angle combination, it could be 41, 34 just as well as 40.75, 34.5.

Ideal regards,

Michael

Much better.
Im not comfortable that there is a center point of the grading systems but if the wording was changed too "both the AGS and GIA systems show that 34/41 is a ideal/exellent combo when properly cut." then we are in total agreement.
The reason for the change, the way the AGS cut grade is shaped(lets use the ASET maps for this) longer than it is wide and the almost disjointed regions finding an exact center is not possible and will change if you use the maps, the charts, msu data or actual diamonds grades.
Could 41/34 be used as a reference point for cut grading sure it can so can tolk and Morse but for better or worse tolk has been chosen as the reference point.
Changing that is inviting confusion in an already confusing area.

 

[pyramid]

Thanks Storm for your opinon on 34.8.

 

[pyramid]

Thanks Wink.

You as usual have hit it spot on, I know from all your years dealing with your customers you know exactly how people feel when making a purchase. I am actually in Scotland and not near London but it could be done nevertheless sometime. However even then if I chose what I think I like the look of better I would still be wondering if it was seen as better from a diamond experts view. I don't know why I want this perfect diamond cut anyway, because I am not like that at all with anything else in life, I think it is just too much reading on the forums here or something.

I know that perfect as it seems to be seen today is 34.5/40.75, now the stone I got from GOG is less crown more pavillion, but if I went to Whiteflash most of theirs is more crown and same pavillion. I know Paul slegers has some around the Tolkowsky ideal but I have looked a few times and never in the size or clarity or colour or price I want. I know this is stupid because the diamond is not ever going to be cut down or repolished hopefully but I tend to think well the 34.8 could be made a 34.5 but a 34.2 never could be. This is where I am at I am thinking up things with no relevance at all to the purchased diamond.

I mean unless a person is in the trade this is really getting to the geek stage, it reminds me of those people who have the very best music system and they learn all about it and it has minute things to do with graphic equalizer or whatever they have nowadays, well I have a music centre which is not cheap cheap but not terrible good quality either and because I am not really interested in that as long as I hear a nice tune if someone was to start talking about it I would be bored and like they are not normal what is this. Well this is how I feel I am now with diamond and used to be just like that is pretty and not care about angles and in a way wish I could go back to that but can't because I am stuck. I know people are entitled to what they like and no doubt they know the music centres inside out and pay for that but is there a happy medium?

 

[pyramid]

Just noticed on the old AGA charts that 34.7 is the maximum for 1A cut and 34.8 comes under 1B. I don''t know why I thought 34.8 was the best now.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 7/20/2007 4:01:56 PM
Author: Wink
Rhino,

I hope for you that what happened to the Japan diamond market never happens here. Many retailers had your same guarantee, actually I think it might have been even worse, a complete buy back policy, but I do not remember for sure. When the economy crashed and diamond prices went down, way down, many many people came to retreave their money, and many many fine jewelers are long since bankrupt because of it.

It is good to stand behind your product, but please be careful to protect yourself against a bad turn in the economy.

Wink

Wink, I've not finished reading beyond this post yet, but I think you and Serg misunderstand what Jonathan wrote and missed a very important element....

"I will always take that diamond back on a trade for exactly what you paid."

This doesn't mean refund.....it means exchange toward another product. If I'm not mistaken, his policy says 100% of the purchase price less shipping, and requires that the trade up purchase must exceed the original purchase price by at least $500.

As such, the situation you're describing (what happened with turn of economy/Japan) isn't possible. He isn't saying he'll refund at any time for any reason; only that he'll let you pick something else (that's at least $500 more in value) and credit 100% of the original purchase less shipping.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2007 1:05:00 PM
Author: aljdewey

Wink, I''ve not finished reading beyond this post yet, but I think you and Serg misunderstand what Jonathan wrote and missed a very important element....

''I will always take that diamond back on a trade for exactly what you paid.''

This doesn''t mean refund.....it means exchange toward another product. If I''m not mistaken, his policy says 100% of the purchase price less shipping, and requires that the trade up purchase must exceed the original purchase price by at least $500.

As such, the situation you''re describing (what happened with turn of economy/Japan) isn''t possible. He isn''t saying he''ll refund at any time for any reason; only that he''ll let you pick something else (that''s at least $500 more in value) and credit 100% of the original purchase less shipping.

Alj, they also have a Lifetime Gaurantee buy back policy on their round H&A''s for 25% less what one paid.

http://204.17.89.15/About/Policies/

 

[Regular Guy]

I haven't read all, but much of this thread...and I can see what I noted before, still applies:

"Observed: Gentlemen in some aspects of the trade have been the most vocal about variances from category I (i.e., Jonathans from GOG & WF, Garry, Paul...for example). Also, observed, not a lot of banter from our appraisers on these variances, no?"

Also...I have no reason still, to think what I speculated about over 2 years ago is different yet:

" Relationship between crown & pavilion (accounts for) - 70%"

and so, to say what's been said also at various points in this thread...that what you want to do is have some perspective when you map the beauty of a diamond.

There may be an optimal set of crown & pavilion angles, sure, but...on the general face of it...a utility like the HCA is designed to turn this idea on its head, and also, you do want to see that the whole thing is being looked at in a "Maslovian hierarchy" kind of way...that other parts of the diamond are also taken in a balance of consideration, with respect to it.

Not sure if there's much value added here...but I felt the idea relevant enough to share...

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 7/22/2007 1:12:32 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2007 1:05:00 PM
Author: aljdewey

Wink, I''ve not finished reading beyond this post yet, but I think you and Serg misunderstand what Jonathan wrote and missed a very important element....

''I will always take that diamond back on a trade for exactly what you paid.''

This doesn''t mean refund.....it means exchange toward another product. If I''m not mistaken, his policy says 100% of the purchase price less shipping, and requires that the trade up purchase must exceed the original purchase price by at least $500.

As such, the situation you''re describing (what happened with turn of economy/Japan) isn''t possible. He isn''t saying he''ll refund at any time for any reason; only that he''ll let you pick something else (that''s at least $500 more in value) and credit 100% of the original purchase less shipping.

Alj, they also have a Lifetime Gaurantee buy back policy on their round H&A''s for 25% less what one paid.

http://204.17.89.15/About/Policies/

Ellen, I wasn''t knocking on GOG at all......and I know they have a buyback program, as do most of the other vendors too. WF has one, James Allen has one, and I think that NiceIce and ERD have them too.

My post was only meant to address one thing....the comments made by Serg and Wink, and those were made in reply to Jonathan''s prior post talking about his willingness to take a diamond back (for trade-up) for 100% of value. He wasn''t talking (at that time or in that post) about his buyback program, so I didn''t reply about that.

My post was only to point that out that I thought Serg and Wink were misreading Jonathan''s post and thinking it said he''d take a diamond back for refund at 100%. That''s all.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2007 2:17:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Ellen, I wasn''t knocking on GOG at all......and I know they have a buyback program, as do most of the other vendors too. WF has one, James Allen has one, and I think that NiceIce and ERD have them too.

My post was only meant to address one thing....the comments made by Serg and Wink, and those were made in reply to Jonathan''s prior post talking about his willingness to take a diamond back (for trade-up) for 100% of value. He wasn''t talking (at that time or in that post) about his buyback program, so I didn''t reply about that.

My post was only to point that out that I thought Serg and Wink were misreading Jonathan''s post and thinking it said he''d take a diamond back for refund at 100%. That''s all.

I didn''t get that out of your post at all.

And didn''t think that''s what my post conveyed...

And to be honest, I thought Jon had posted all the info (on trade in and buy backs) together. I also thought Wink was addressing the buy back part, and that maybe you missed it.

Obviously, I thought wrong. A lot.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 7/22/2007 2:24:11 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/22/2007 2:17:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Ellen, I wasn''t knocking on GOG at all......and I know they have a buyback program, as do most of the other vendors too. WF has one, James Allen has one, and I think that NiceIce and ERD have them too.

My post was only meant to address one thing....the comments made by Serg and Wink, and those were made in reply to Jonathan''s prior post talking about his willingness to take a diamond back (for trade-up) for 100% of value. He wasn''t talking (at that time or in that post) about his buyback program, so I didn''t reply about that.

My post was only to point that out that I thought Serg and Wink were misreading Jonathan''s post and thinking it said he''d take a diamond back for refund at 100%. That''s all.

I didn''t get that out of your post at all.

And didn''t think that''s what my post conveyed...

And to be honest, I thought Jon had posted all the info (on trade in and buy backs) together. I also thought Wink was addressing the buy back part, and that maybe you missed it.

Obviously, I thought wrong. A lot.

No problem at all, gal! I know you''re coming from a good place!

 

[aljdewey]

I'm going to say something that's going to sound harsh, but after these recent threads, it has to be said. I hope Pyramid and others in similar situations will understand that I mean this to be helpful.......

At some point, people have to take ownership for their own decisions. Input and research is a great thing, but every one of us has make decisions for ourselves based on our OWN guts. It's great to collect opinions and hear from many experts, BUT.......

you HAVE to balance that with an understanding that you will NEVER find a field in which all the top experts agree unanimously. Just doesn't happen. You know why? Because, as is the case with almost everything in life, there is MORE THAN ONE RIGHT ANSWER. There is more than one right choice. What's right for me may not be right for you. What's important to me may not be important to you.

You can collect the opinions of all the top cutters, vendors, diamond think-tanks, etc........but ONLY YOU can decide which of those GENERAL thoughts apply to YOU and YOUR SITUATION and how they fit in with WHAT YOU WANT. I prefer fire. Pyramid prefers brilliance. Who's right? BOTH of us. Who's wrong? NEITHER of us.

This applies for any person making a purchase, be it diamonds or cars or houses.....ANYTHING.

Pyramid, part of the responsibility you have in doing your homework is to get in the driver's seat yourself when it comes to making a decision. At some point, you have to trust what feels right to you and stop looking for unanimous validation from everyone on the planet. I mean this in the nicest way, but you are chasing your tail. You keep changing your mind because you don't know what you want, and you want everyone else to agree on what you should do so that you won't really have to MAKE a decision. If everyone else agrees, then it must be the right choice, right? (Wrong).

And if everyone else agrees, then you don't have to make a choice at all. You are looking to others to make you feel good about a purchase you should be deciding upon yourself.

It doesn't matter if everyone else thinks you should send it back. It doesn't matter if everyone else thinks you should keep it. It doesn't matter if I would buy the diamond you have. It doesn't matter if Ellen would. It doesn't matter if Storm would. It doesn't matter if Brian would. It doesn't matter if Garry would. IT ONLY MATTERS IF YOU LIKE IT. If you like it, keep it. If you don't, don't keep it.

No one else can do this for you. You have to feel good about your own decision. No one should have to talke you INTO a stone.....and no one should have to talk you OUT OF a stone. YOU have to decide how important your own little "mindclean" thing is to you, and no one else has to live with your decision. YOU DO.

So, listen to YOUR instincts. Listen to YOUR eyes. Listen to YOUR mindclean. Stop looking for validation from 17 points of the earth and trust in your own ability to make a sound decision for YOU.

 

[pyramid]

Thanks aljdewey

I agree 100% with what you have written. I have always really known I have to choose, and my choice is to return this stone, I think part of it is the hassle with customs and all but I feel that is what I have to do and really that is what I probably have always wanted to do, because otherwise I would not be going back and forth like this I think. I think the reason I have been listening to both sides is because technically I knew they knew more, but looking at the diamond I do think it is not the one for me.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/22/2007 2:45:53 PM
Author: aljdewey

No problem at all, gal! I know you''re coming from a good place!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/22/2007 12:18:58 PM
Author: Pyramid
Thanks Wink.


You as usual have hit it spot on, I know from all your years dealing with your customers you know exactly how people feel when making a purchase. I am actually in Scotland and not near London but it could be done nevertheless sometime. However even then if I chose what I think I like the look of better I would still be wondering if it was seen as better from a diamond experts view. I don't know why I want this perfect diamond cut anyway, because I am not like that at all with anything else in life, I think it is just too much reading on the forums here or something.


I know that perfect as it seems to be seen today is 34.5/40.75, now the stone I got from GOG is less crown more pavillion, but if I went to Whiteflash most of theirs is more crown and same pavillion. I know Paul slegers has some around the Tolkowsky ideal but I have looked a few times and never in the size or clarity or colour or price I want. I know this is stupid because the diamond is not ever going to be cut down or repolished hopefully but I tend to think well the 34.8 could be made a 34.5 but a 34.2 never could be. This is where I am at I am thinking up things with no relevance at all to the purchased diamond.


I mean unless a person is in the trade this is really getting to the geek stage, it reminds me of those people who have the very best music system and they learn all about it and it has minute things to do with graphic equalizer or whatever they have nowadays, well I have a music centre which is not cheap cheap but not terrible good quality either and because I am not really interested in that as long as I hear a nice tune if someone was to start talking about it I would be bored and like they are not normal what is this. Well this is how I feel I am now with diamond and used to be just like that is pretty and not care about angles and in a way wish I could go back to that but can't because I am stuck. I know people are entitled to what they like and no doubt they know the music centres inside out and pay for that but is there a happy medium?

Oops, sorry about the London thing, but I know the trip from Scotland is short because I made it with my daughter one year. We stopped in Scotland and spend 5 days with Alan Hodgkinson for her to study an elementary gemology course. It was a wonderful 5 days, including the day that Alan and his wife took us around to visit some breweries...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/22/2007 1:05:00 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 7/20/2007 4:01:56 PM

Author: Wink

Rhino,


I hope for you that what happened to the Japan diamond market never happens here. Many retailers had your same guarantee, actually I think it might have been even worse, a complete buy back policy, but I do not remember for sure. When the economy crashed and diamond prices went down, way down, many many people came to retreave their money, and many many fine jewelers are long since bankrupt because of it.


It is good to stand behind your product, but please be careful to protect yourself against a bad turn in the economy.


Wink

Wink, I''ve not finished reading beyond this post yet, but I think you and Serg misunderstand what Jonathan wrote and missed a very important element....


''I will always take that diamond back on a trade for exactly what you paid.''


This doesn''t mean refund.....it means exchange toward another product. If I''m not mistaken, his policy says 100% of the purchase price less shipping, and requires that the trade up purchase must exceed the original purchase price by at least $500.


As such, the situation you''re describing (what happened with turn of economy/Japan) isn''t possible. He isn''t saying he''ll refund at any time for any reason; only that he''ll let you pick something else (that''s at least $500 more in value) and credit 100% of the original purchase less shipping.

Excellent, I did not know the terms of his trade in, I have only been to his site once, and that was many years ago. I know I should do more research on the competition, even the friendly competition, but who has the time when you are a small business.

Wink

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 7/22/2007 2:54:18 PM
Author: aljdewey
I''m going to say something that''s going to sound harsh, but after these recent threads, it has to be said. I hope Pyramid and others in similar situations will understand that I mean this to be helpful.......

At some point, people have to take ownership for their own decisions. Input and research is a great thing, but every one of us has make decisions for ourselves based on our OWN guts. It''s great to collect opinions and hear from many experts, BUT.......

you HAVE to balance that with an understanding that you will NEVER find a field in which all the top experts agree unanimously. Just doesn''t happen. You know why? Because, as is the case with almost everything in life, there is MORE THAN ONE RIGHT ANSWER. There is more than one right choice. What''s right for me may not be right for you. What''s important to me may not be important to you.

You can collect the opinions of all the top cutters, vendors, diamond think-tanks, etc........but ONLY YOU can decide which of those GENERAL thoughts apply to YOU and YOUR SITUATION and how they fit in with WHAT YOU WANT. I prefer fire. Pyramid prefers brilliance. Who''s right? BOTH of us. Who''s wrong? NEITHER of us.

This applies for any person making a purchase, be it diamonds or cars or houses.....ANYTHING.

Pyramid, part of the responsibility you have in doing your homework is to get in the driver''s seat yourself when it comes to making a decision. At some point, you have to trust what feels right to you and stop looking for unanimous validation from everyone on the planet. I mean this in the nicest way, but you are chasing your tail. You keep changing your mind because you don''t know what you want, and you want everyone else to agree on what you should do so that you won''t really have to MAKE a decision. If everyone else agrees, then it must be the right choice, right? (Wrong).

And if everyone else agrees, then you don''t have to make a choice at all. You are looking to others to make you feel good about a purchase you should be deciding upon yourself.

It doesn''t matter if everyone else thinks you should send it back. It doesn''t matter if everyone else thinks you should keep it. It doesn''t matter if I would buy the diamond you have. It doesn''t matter if Ellen would. It doesn''t matter if Storm would. It doesn''t matter if Brian would. It doesn''t matter if Garry would. IT ONLY MATTERS IF YOU LIKE IT. If you like it, keep it. If you don''t, don''t keep it.

No one else can do this for you. You have to feel good about your own decision. No one should have to talke you INTO a stone.....and no one should have to talk you OUT OF a stone. YOU have to decide how important your own little ''mindclean'' thing is to you, and no one else has to live with your decision. YOU DO.

So, listen to YOUR instincts. Listen to YOUR eyes. Listen to YOUR mindclean. Stop looking for validation from 17 points of the earth and trust in your own ability to make a sound decision for YOU.

Great post Al!!!!

Not just for pyramid, but for everyone!!!