Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Looking for Assisstance

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Z

Zaster85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
27
Howdy. I''ve been coming to this site for the past month, trying to learn as much as I can about diamonds. My goal was to learn as much as possible so I wasn’t taken for a ride by the local jewelers. To that degree, I think I have succeeded.

I’ve found a ring I would like to purchase for my GF. (I''ve pulled a decent bit of info about what she likes, and Ill be brining the family with me to look at it next week).

Now, with back story set up, here are the ring specs. The ring is a 6 prong, 14k white Gold ring with diamond accented sides. Total weight of the accented side stones are ~25 pts (+- 3, cant remember). The center diamond is a ~65 pt round brilliant, VS2, G color. Asking price for stone set in ring is $2700 USD.

Now, I was pretty much set to buy this ring, until I found out the center stone wasn’t certified. The stone looks great, I could not see an inclusions with a loupe (but what do I know, lol), but most importantly, it sparkles! .... and it’s not certified.

As one might tell, the certification is an issue because most of what I''ve read online says it should be. But now that I''ve been doing research just on the Cert. vs non-cert issue... that has become a little murky to me. I can understand why a Jeweler might not certify a 1600-2000 dollar stone. It adds almost 10% to the price for a full detailed report.

As far as I know the jeweler seems reputable. They''ve been in business for 20 years, have two stores (recently opened the second), is very friendly and answers my questions, etc. I asked about the cert. and they said its not really necessary unless you plan on selling it, as the stone comes with an appraisal which should suffice for a insurance claim (according to them, I know nothing about insurance on diamond rings, perhaps my next item to research).

With all my nervous rambling out of the way, I am curious about the following:

- Is a certification really required for a 65 pt diamond? Naturally, I understand if you spending several thousand on a 4 carat diamond why you would get one, but is it really that important for an engagement ring of this size?

- What would be the cost of certifying the stone? I went to the GIA site (http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/DiamondFees-USD-Sep.pdf) and was confused by their price structure. What do I need? I figure I just need the Dossier report for like $43 USD, but what about the Diamond Type Analysis? What does that even show?

- How much can I talk down a jeweler on the price? I would put the setting at probably $750 USD based on material and carat. The diamond (1800-2000), so that would put the total in the range of 2500 - 2750. Is this a fair mark up on the ring w/ diamond?

- How would I go about asking them to have the ring appraised by a neutral party? Is that even considered good diamond etiquette?

- What do I need for insurance purposes? Does having a GIA cert assist in insurance? Can it be done with a cert?

Sorry for the epically long first post with questions and sub questions, just trying to make an informed decision. Thanks. :)
 
G VS2 according who whom? (Please do NOT take the seller's word for it.)

If it has not been graded a reputable lab like GIA or AGS then I doubt it really is G VS2.

Lab reports help people who are not psychic know what they are buying.
 
It's not that your jeweler isn't trustworthy but when stones are grade they are compared to a collection of stones of a known color and they are graded in a controlled environment. There is no way a jeweler has that ability. They are making an educated guess which is sales-based. Same goes for clarity.

A grading report isn't just for sell-back purposes. It's so that you know what you bought and the information is accurate. A report is made before a stone is set. Once it's set you can't weigh it and inclusions could be hidden under a prong. It sounds like the stone you are looking at is already set.

Also, for an ering I would prefer 18ct gold over 14ct.

I have stones under .5 ct with AGS reports.
 
I think you could just about match that price on PS for a G VS1 .65ct w/ AGS cert link $2230 for the diamond itself.

My personal preference is to buy the biggest and best center stone that fits the budget, then get a basic setting and upgrade the setting later. If you buy from a PS vendor, you most likely get an option to upgrade the diamond later, if you want to, plus it will come with proper documentation from a major lab. Then, if that ring is ever lost or stolen, you have "proof" of the quality of diamond you owned. And that makes it tougher for the insurance company to make you settle for a lesser quality replacement diamond.

I have 14k, 18k, and platinum settings for my diamonds. 14k works just as well as 18k, but 18k WG is a little harder than 14k. If you keep WG polished and rhodium plated, it is very white.

These are Todd Gray's (Nice Ice) ranges for picking a decent RB diamond:
Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle* between 34.3 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle* between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle between thin to slightly thick
Culet: GIA none or AGS pointed (same concept)
Click to expand...
 
If you love this ring, then take it to an independent appraiser and get it checked out. It''s harder to examine a stone that''s in a mounting, but a good appraiser should be able to give you a fair read on the color/clarity/cut quality, especially if it''s a standard RB in a white metal prong mounting.

Lack of a cert isn''t fatal, but it does mean that you should definitely have an independent expert take a look at the stone before finalizing your purchase.

The price might not be unreasonable if the diamond is what it''s said to be, but we don''t know anything about the cut quality, which has an impact on the price. Some sellers will try to pin you down on a price before you get the thing independently appraised, probably because they''re worried the appraiser will tell you a value they''re not happy with, but don''t let yourself get cornered like that on a ring that has no cert. You really can''t say what''s a fair price until you know exactly what you''re dealing with.

It''s completely reasonable and normal to get an independent appraisal before you buy. A seller who resists that is super sketchy and you should run away from dealing with anyone like that.

To get insurance through Jewelers Mutual you just need an official appraisal. You do not need a diamond cert. Lab certs don''t include listed values anyway, which you need in order to get insurance for that amount.
 
Date: 12/5/2009 5:54:20 PM
Author: kenny
Lab reports help people who are not psychic know what they are buying.
Click to expand...


ROFLMA
36.gif


Yes, without the cert or appraisal its like buying a car where all you know it that it is green with two doors, leather seats and a stereo. How much is this car worth???
 
Date: 12/5/2009 5:28:30 PM
Author:Zaster85

Howdy. I''ve been coming to this site for the past month, trying to learn as much as I can about diamonds. My goal was to learn as much as possible so I wasn’t taken for a ride by the local jewelers. To that degree, I think I have succeeded.
Judging by your questions I believe you are on the right track

I’ve found a ring I would like to purchase for my GF. (I''ve pulled a decent bit of info about what she likes, and Ill be brining the family with me to look at it next week). YMMV

Now, with back story set up, here are the ring specs. The ring is a 6 prong, 14k white Gold ring with diamond accented sides. Total weight of the accented side stones are ~25 pts (+- 3, cant remember). The center diamond is a ~65 pt round brilliant, VS2, G color. Asking price for stone set in ring is $2700 USD.
I suggest comparing the prices for stones with these (limited) specs to the price you are being offered. Keep in mind "the four C''s" do not include QUALITY of the cut which is another thing (THE MAIN THING) entirely.

Now, I was pretty much set to buy this ring, until I found out the center stone wasn’t certified. The stone looks great, I could not see an inclusions with a loupe (but what do I know, lol), but most importantly, it sparkles! .... and it’s not certified.
You show great wisdom - "Know thyself" (and don''t let pride get in the way)

As one might tell, the certification is an issue because most of what I''ve read online says it should be. But now that I''ve been doing research just on the Cert. vs non-cert issue... that has become a little murky to me. I can understand why a Jeweler might not certify a 1600-2000 dollar stone. It adds almost 10% to the price for a full detailed report.
10% in this case would be $160-200. Is this price point a deal breaker? The certification of a quality stone ADDS VALUE. Why would a merchant of anything not want to add value and credibility to their merchandise.
As far as I know the jeweler seems reputable. They''ve been in business for 20 years, have two stores (recently opened the second), is very friendly and answers my questions, etc.
They may very well be. Sounds like this jewelers target audience it not necc. cutophiles or people who KNOW diamonds. If I had to guess, I would say you are likely not going to get outright ripped off but you may be able to do better. Keep in mind, WalMart is reputable and growing. They are the largest seller of diamonds. Are they selling GREAT diamonds?
I asked about the cert. and they said its not really necessary unless you plan on selling it,
HERE IS WHERE THE RED WARNING LIGHTS SHOULD GO UP
HE plans on SELLING it TO YOU!!! Yet, he says a cert is not necessary!!!! A cert is only needed if YOU plan on SELLING? Think about this, is the time to find out what it is worth before you buy or before you sell? (Not to mention that you likely can only re-sell for 20-30 cents on the dollar).
as the stone comes with an appraisal (by whom?) which should suffice for a insurance claim (according to them, I know nothing about insurance on diamond rings, perhaps my next item to research).

With all my nervous rambling out of the way, I am curious about the following:
Sounds like nervous is warranted
- Is a certification really required for a 65 pt diamond? Naturally, I understand if you spending several thousand on a 4 carat diamond why you would get one, but is it really that important for an engagement ring of this size?
The size and the price of the diamond is irrelevant. This is YOUR diamond ER!! This ring is just as important to you as the other guys 4ct ring. PS''ers tend to show the same enthusiasm for both BTW.
Actually IMO the tighter the budget the more important it is to squeeze every bit of value possible out of it.
- What would be the cost of certifying the stone? I went to the GIA site (http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/DiamondFees-USD-Sep.pdf) and was confused by their price structure. What do I need? I figure I just need the Dossier report for like $43 USD, but what about the Diamond Type Analysis? What does that even show?
What could be the cost of not getting a certified stone? You could be paying twice for what it is worth and have no way of knowing. However, getting it certified should be the jeweler''s concern not yours.
- How much can I talk down a jeweler on the price? I would put the setting at probably $750 USD based on material and carat. The diamond (1800-2000), so that would put the total in the range of 2500 - 2750. Is this a fair mark up on the ring w/ diamond?
No way of knowing - see above
- How would I go about asking them to have the ring appraised by a neutral party? Just like that - and you choose the appraiser Is that even considered good diamond etiquette? Its just plain smart in many cases and especially this one - etiquette or not.

- What do I need for insurance purposes? Does having a GIA cert assist in insurance? Can it be done with a cert?
This can vary and there are plenty of good threads on this subject

Sorry for the epically long first post with questions and sub questions, just trying to make an informed decision. Thanks. :)
No appology necessary - we love this stuff - and you are asking VERY GOOD QUESTIONS!!!!
Click to expand...
 

Hey everyone and thanks for the posts.


Just an update, I asked the jeweler about my options because I wanted a diamond which was certified. They told me they would work with me... but as always there was a catch.


First, to get the stone certified would cost $300 dollars and they would ask for a down payment. They claim they need to pay almost 200 dollars in insurance to ship the diamond... which I can kind of believe... sorta. Can anyone confirm that?


- So basically, I’m kind of screwed if it comes back not what they say it is. Sure I could re-neg. the price down, but I'm kind of stuck getting something at that point. My reply will be a "No" to that one unless they guarantee I can have my money back on the spot if the diamond isn’t what they say it is.


Second option was to order a GIA certified diamond... to which they said would ADD $800 dollars to the price (mind you, we are talking about ordering the "same" quality diamond, so why 800 more?). That would bring the price up to $3500 for a 64 pt round brilliant with a 14K white gold w/ ~25 pt diamond accents on the band.


- This has basically sealed the deal for me (unless I’m being completely unreasonable here so please tell me if I am). I can get a Ideal cut 64 pt GIA certified from an online vendor for around $1900. $2200 was the most expensive I saw for the size, which was also a 67 pt mind you. Am I crazy, or are they taking me for a ride?


**** edited for spelling mistakes****
 
Date: 12/8/2009 7:03:50 PM
Author: Zaster85

rst, to get the stone certified would cost $300 dollars and they would ask for a down payment. They claim they need to pay almost 200 dollars in insurance to ship the diamond... which I can kind of believe... sorta. Can anyone confirm that?



- So basically, I’m kind of screwed if it comes back not what they say it is. Sure I could re-neg. the price down, but I''m kind of stuck getting something at that point. My reply will be a ''No'' to that one unless they guarantee I can have my money back on the spot if the diamond isn’t what they say it is.



Second option was to order a GIA certified diamond... to which they said would ADD $800 dollars to the price (mind you, we are talking about ordering the ''same'' quality diamond, so why 800 more?). That would bring the price up to $3500 for a 64 pt round brilliant with a 14K white gold w/ ~25 pt diamond accents on the band.



- This has basically sealed the deal for me (unless I’m being completely unreasonable here so please tell me if I am). I can get a Ideal cut 64 pt GIA certified from an online vendor for around $1900. $2200 was the most expensive I saw for the size, which was also a 67 pt mind you. Am I crazy, or are they taking me for a ride?


**** edited for spelling mistakes****
Click to expand...
they are BSing you,it don''t cost $200 to ship a diamond.
38.gif


why pay $800 more?...b/c GIA is a respected lab.
 
Tell them that you will pay for the grading if the stones comes back as what they says it is, else no deal on the stone as they are clearly mis-representing it.
 
what about the cut quality? They offer no information on it. Would I have to press them for that information or would they not know it?
 
You're not crazy, they're lying to you about how much it costs to ship diamonds, that's shady and you should take your business elsewhere.

It wasn't a great deal to start out with and this new information pushes it way over the line of what I'd consider decent.

ETA: Seriously, it costs like $20-30 to get $10,000 of insurance for a diamond mailed through the U.S. post office and like $50 to ship something second-day via UPS with a similar amount of insurance. What they're telling you is flat-out ridiculous.
 

Aye. Well thanks everyone for the replies. I''m going to call up that jeweler and let them know I''m no longer interested in their merchandise. I''ve got some more questions, but I guess I''m goanna do some checking on the forum before I re-post questions.


Again, thanks all.
 
Good luck.
 
Yay Dreamer!

There you go, a phenomenal stone in a great setting.
9.gif
 
Yea, I like it.
Setting won't work though. We were talking about metal types and she apparently really hates how white gold tarnishes and yellows over time. So we decided to check into platinum.

(Small aside, she thinkgs she's getting a tennis bracelet. She knows nothing about jewelery and diamonds so I've managed to get the vast majority of info about her tastes by showing her rings and saying, what do you think of this, I plan on using X feature on your tennis bracelet. lol)

She likes texture/design on the sides. Smooth band/setting surfaces are too.. boring I guess would be the word, for her. If anyone knows where I can find this in a nice palladium alloy I might consider proposing to you instead. Platinum is just so expensive! But shes worth the extra premium on it, and if she likes the setting, so be it. I would have preferred a 6 prong, but with a ~60 pt stone, I guess its not overly important that its only 4.

Actually, I'm kind of thinking about

http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/settings-with-sidestones/ring/item_58-261.asp



for the setting.



And as for the diamond, I'm thinking either



Low End (to be traded up in time): http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/solitaire-rings/?module=diamond&item=1272086
High End: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1265728.asp

I really like that 60 pt stone, but it would put me near my acceptable max. However I think it would be a beautiful ring with that stone.



PS. I was under the impression that GIA was the current lab leader. I was actually told to avoid AGS by a jeweler. Any reason to use AGS as compared to GIA?

*****edited for aside comment and symbols which copied incorrectly from word****
 
AGS and GIA are both top labs. AGS is stricter on cut quality and that is why people on PS prefer them.
 
If you would like us to help you find a diamond then tell us your budget and your desired specs and we can go from there. You mentioned GVS2 originally which is why I selected that diamond.
 

I don’t think Ill need help just yet, I have just enough of an understanding to get myself into trouble. Before I make a final purchase, Ill definitely run it by everyone. With the two I selected, are their any pitfalls with them? Ill probably learn more by having my selection dissected to show me what I should pay more attention too.


I ran them through the HCA and came up with 1.5 and .6 (low and high quality respectively), and both are ideal/ideal with good color and VS2. Images show them to be eye clean as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top