Looking for advice on buying a filigree ring

[filigreelova]

Hello Everyone,

My gf and I are in the business of shopping for an engagement ring. I''m lucky in that she has great taste, knows what she likes and actually wants to pick the ring out with me.

Now, she is interested in antique jewelry. More specifically she really likes solitaire filigree rings, with possibly a bezel setting. She does not want a replica as she feels the rings are less intricate. We have looked in Baltimore, Philly and made several trips to the NYC diamond district (its quite a zoo really around this time of year).

We did look at supposedly original antiques (although I guess, I would need an appraisal to see if the ring has been reset). Almost all rings that we have taken a look at are not certified, so I have no idea what the diamond is. Can I certify a ring that is already set? I assume not, and probably can only get it appraised. Also, given that they are antiques, its makes it hard to haggle as I dont know really what the stone is and each ring is ''unique'' making it a sellers market.

I have also thought about buying a antique setting and the diamond separately. But that has also posed a problem, since alot of the dealers dont want to sell JUST the setting.

My questions:

1. Is it possible to buy a real antique setting separately or am I doomed from the start?
2. Am I correct that the replicas are not as intricate so maybe I/we will need to compromise on that a bit?
3. If I''m back to the business of buying a whole genuine filigree ring, how do I know what I''m buying? I guess I need to appraise it before I buy, but certifying the stone is out of the question?
4. Are there any genuine antiques in the style that I''m looking for in Philly/Balt/DC area? Or am I restricted to online and NYC?
5. If I do end up buying the stone separately, am I better off at going online and buying on stats (i guess we are talking about a cushion) vs trusting the jeweler to sell me a stone at a reasonable price?

Any and all your help and on any of thee above questions is very appreciated in advance. Thank you so much.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[surfgirl]

Mike, as the owner of an antique ering and wband, I can tell you that it's definitely in your best interest to become as knowledgeable as possible about diamonds and older cut stones before you buy. As you pointed out, each stone is very unique and there are other factors that come into play when purchasing an authentic antique ering or stone. While you can look up on PS, how much most of the online vendors are charging for a particular grading of modern cut stone, an older cut has different pricing if:

A. The carat size is bigger - say over 1.5 cts.
B. The color grade is higher than say a "J" (because many were re-cut into modern rounds in an attempt to make the stone grade whiter)
C. Clarity grading

and unlike modern stones:
D. The condition of the stone (ie: is there any chipping, etc. and if so, how much and how significant, or not, is it, etc. Mind you, a little bit of very light chipping isn't the end of the world with old stones because it's one way of authenticating that the stone's 'been around the block' so to speak).

E. The cut of the stone. There are so many variations of OMC, OEC and Transitional cuts so you can say "it's an OEC" but if it's a crappy cut OEC it wont have the gorgeous fire and scintillation of a well cut OEC.

(Am I confusing you yet?!?)...

Anyway, it's late and I cant do a search now but if you do a search for:

old cuts
antique stones
antique erings
vintage erings
OEC
OMC
Transitional cuts

You should bring up enough threads to get you started on a good background! Also, you'll find a ton of links to other places to look for antique rings. Places like Single Stone in LA have both vintage and loose old cuts and new repro settings and I think they also have some vintage empty settings sometimes.

There've been a lot of old cuts around these parts in the last six months. Here's my thread..I'm sure the other OCC (Old Cuts Club) girls will show up and post theirs for reference.

https://www.pricescope.com/forum/op-requested/at-last-my-antique-ering-t61580.html

ETA: Regarding your specific questions:

1. Is it possible to buy a real antique setting separately or am I doomed from the start?
YES IT'S POSSIBLE BUT IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND HUNTING AROUND. YOU NEED TO PRACTICE THE ART OF PATIENCE!

2. Am I correct that the replicas are not as intricate so maybe I/we will need to compromise on that a bit?
NO, I WOULDN'T SAY THIS IS TRUE. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE CRAFTSMANSHIP. AN OLD RING CAN BE CRAPPY TOO IF IT WASN"T MADE WELL.

3. If I'm back to the business of buying a whole genuine filigree ring, how do I know what I'm buying? I guess I need to appraise it before I buy, but certifying the stone is out of the question?
YOU CAN REALLY ONLY CERT A STONE OUT OF THE SETTING SO YOU COULD LOOK FOR GIA CERT"D OLD STONES. MANY DEALERS HAVE THEM BUT YOU"LL PAY MORE FOR THE CERT. USUALLY YOU MAKE SURE OF THE RETURN POLICY AND YOU MAKE SURE THE SELLER KNOWS YOU"RE GOING TO TAKE THE RING TO BE APPRAISED IMMEDIATELY UPON PICK UP, TO ENSURE IT"S WHAT THEY"RE SELLING IT AS. YOU NEED TO USE AN APPRAISER THAT IS "INDEPENDANT" (NOT AFFILIATED WITH A SHOP OR A DIAMOND SELLER), AND HOPEFULLY ONE THAT KNOWS OLD CUTS IF THAT"S WHAT YOU GET. IF YOU GET A NEW STONE YOU CAN REALLY GO TO ANY INDENPENDANT APPRAISER.

4. Are there any genuine antiques in the style that I'm looking for in Philly/Balt/DC area? Or am I restricted to online and NYC?
I"M SURE THERE ARE BUT AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO HUNT AROUND! GO INTO ESTATE SHOPS THAT SELL JEWELRY, MAYBE CALL QUEST JEWELERS AND ASK PETE IF HE KNOWS OF ANY ESTATE JEWELERS IN THE AREA.

5. If I do end up buying the stone separately, am I better off at going online and buying on stats (i guess we are talking about a cushion) vs trusting the jeweler to sell me a stone at a reasonable price?
I CANT ANSWER THIS OBJECTIVELY BECAUSE I COULDN"T EVER BUY SUCH A HUGE PURCHASE OVER THE INTERNET, BUT THAT"S JUST ME. I NEED TO SEE ENDLESS AMOUNTS OF OPTIONS IN PERSON BEFORE I DECIDE. I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE MORE IMPORTANT IF YOU"RE BUYING ONLINE SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU CANNOT SEE THE STONE BEFORE YOU BUY IT.

 

[pauly1]

Mike, your post caught my attention because I''m in the process of building an antique ring myself. I don''t know how flexible she is when it comes to wanting an actual "Antique", or if she just wants that antique look. Also, I don''t know if you''re willing to work with someone on the other side of the country. That said, if you''re open to any of this, then I would HIGHLY suggest you check out GLJW.com. They specialize in antique rings, especially filigree and thier reviews are glowing. As for the stone, if you''re looking for a cushion then contact Mark T. at Engagement Rings Direct, and tell him Paul said hi. He''s as honest as they come and will find you exactly what you''re looking for.

 

[Octavia]

In case you aren''t able to find a genuine antique you both like, there are a few other designers who specialize in pretty beautiful filigree. Van Craeynest seems to be one of the best (their website is a bit slim but there are more pictures here). Whitehouse Brothers is another. And you might want to check out Saturn Jewels, although the website doesn''t have many styles on there so I''m not sure how much filigree work they actually do. No harm in asking, though. If you find something you like that can be produced for you, at least you''ll have a backup just in case.

Good luck finding a wonderful antique piece!

 

[ringster]

congrats mike on your upcoming engagement! it is so nice that you and your gf are looking for the ring together!

the other PSers have given you great advice and i am probably just repeating it. your gf definitely needs to look at the different cuts/color/specs in person to see what she likes. everything looks really different online.

We did look at supposedly original antiques (although I guess, I would need an appraisal to see if the ring has been reset). Almost all rings that we have taken a look at are not certified, so I have no idea what the diamond is. Can I certify a ring that is already set? I assume not, and probably can only get it appraised. Also, given that they are antiques, its makes it hard to haggle as I dont know really what the stone is and each ring is ''unique'' making it a sellers market.

yes for old stones especially if they are already set, they are most likely not certified. also they will generally be of lower color grade. it is harder to get ones that are H or higher (i found that H in old stones is kind of like a D/E in modern cut - H or higher will command a higher price esp if the polish/symmetry/cut is high). you would need to get the stone appraised and ideally if the stone is an older cut try to get an appraiser who is familiar with these types of cuts.

you should definitely look at a few of these stones which have different color to see what your gf feels comfortable with. my stone is H and it is cut well so it looks really really white. but i saw some that were M and L but i did not like the yellowish tinge that i could see in certain lighting and angles. if your gf is ok with the lower color range then there will be more choice for her. if not then it is just a waiting game until you find a higher color.


now for your questions:

1. Is it possible to buy a real antique setting separately or am I doomed from the start?

yep, i think it can be difficult to do it this way. plus is also depends on your gf''s ring size. i have size 4 and there alot of antique rings around that size. i guess people during that time has smaller ring sizes. if she has bigger ring size then it will probably be easier to go with a replica.

i am in the bay area and but this place had alot of antique settings :
Gus Farber Dan Tenenbaum Appraisers & Buyers
Neighborhood: Union Square
210 Post Street
Suite 1021
(between Grant Ave & Stockton St)
San Francisco, CA 94108

2. Am I correct that the replicas are not as intricate so maybe I/we will need to compromise on that a bit?

i don''t know that you can make that assessment. depends on the quality of the workmanship not on the age of the ring. also, you need to consider that the older the ring, the more wear and tear it has had so it might need a "tune up". surfgirl can attest to that - she was trying to decide whether or not her antique ering should be reshanked.

3. If I''m back to the business of buying a whole genuine filigree ring, how do I know what I''m buying? I guess I need to appraise it before I buy, but certifying the stone is out of the question?

if you are getting an old cut, certs don''t really help as much because you really need to see the diamond in person and in different lights to see if it looks good to you. then you need to get it appraised to make sure that you are getting what you paid for in terms of color and clarity. both of these can be approximated while the stone is in the setting.

4. Are there any genuine antiques in the style that I''m looking for in Philly/Balt/DC area? Or am I restricted to online and NYC?

i''m in the bay area and there are a few places here. there are some in southern california like singlestone. most reputable places will let you buy and then give you a period of time where you can return if you don''t like it.

5. If I do end up buying the stone separately, am I better off at going online and buying on stats (i guess we are talking about a cushion) vs trusting the jeweler to sell me a stone at a reasonable price?
if you are talking about a cushion it seems that mark at engagementringsdirect.com is the recommended cushion person. plus you live pretty close to him so you could tell him what your specs are and he can find something for you to look at when you come in to visit.

hope this helps! have fun with your search and can''t wait to see what you and your gf find!


here is my thread on my ering

 

[filigreelova]

Thank you everybody for the thoughtful and generous advice. We have contacted Ari at Singlestone and will go from there. I have been reading up on all the different cuts. It seems that if I''m already buying an original antique, that becomes secondary, as all I can do is decide whether I love it the way it is and appraise it. If I''ll be lucky enough to find a nice setting, then of course the search for a good stone begins.

I''m confident that we will find our ring, it will just take a bit of time. Shopping in NYC was just not pleasant and I firmly believe that if you are not an expert and you walk in off the street and get a "good deal" you probably got taken to the cleaners.

On the other hand, buying online is also a challenge, since the true beauty and uniqueness of the ring comes out fully in real life.

Something will turn up, I''ll keep reading and educating myself. Thank you once again.

Mike

 

[ringster]

Date: 12/22/2007 2:39:41 AM
Author: filigreelova
Thank you everybody for the thoughtful and generous advice. We have contacted Ari at Singlestone and will go from there. I have been reading up on all the different cuts. It seems that if I'm already buying an original antique, that becomes secondary, as all I can do is decide whether I love it the way it is and appraise it. If I'll be lucky enough to find a nice setting, then of course the search for a good stone begins.


I'm confident that we will find our ring, it will just take a bit of time. Shopping in NYC was just not pleasant and I firmly believe that if you are not an expert and you walk in off the street and get a 'good deal' you probably got taken to the cleaners.


On the other hand, buying online is also a challenge, since the true beauty and uniqueness of the ring comes out fully in real life.


Something will turn up, I'll keep reading and educating myself. Thank you once again.


Mike

hi there and glad to hear that the info here was helpful. i'm glad you are contacting ari - definitely a good move.

i do have a suggestion though - you might want to try looking for the stone first. i was like you and thought that looking for the setting should be my first task and frankly initially i was more interested in the setting than in the diamond cause i hadn't seen enough of them in person to get a sense of what kinds i liked and to see what the difference is between different levels of quality.

the reason i say that you look for stone first is b/c when you look for antique cut diamonds in particular you really won't know what you will find in terms of the size. when a good one comes along you may have to reassess what you originally planned - i was looking originally for 0.5-.75 ct but ended up with a 1.06 because when i saw the diamond i knew it was a really nice one and would be hard to find the quality again.

if you get a setting that can only accomodate a diamond of a particular size then you end up limiting yourself even more diamond-wise which isn't so bad if you are looking at modern RBs but with the antique cuts pickings are definitely slimmer. you have to wait longer to find a good stone.

that's my advice from someone who has been there!

 

[monarch64]

Yup, find her dream "antique" setting first, then find a stone that will fit a.) her needs, and/or b.) the setting''s parameters. Yes, it can be done. Have fun! With PSr''s along for the ride and to give guidance/advice along the way, you''ll do just fine.

 

[AnitaT]

4. Are there any genuine antiques in the style that I''m looking for in Philly/Balt/DC area? Or am I restricted to online and NYC?

Mike,

I am in the DC area and have also been looking at antique/estate ringe. Here are some places you might want to check out:

1. Chas Schwartz & Son, www.chasshwartzjewelers.com --they have two locations in the DC area and have been around forever. I personally like the shop on F St (maybe because the employees share tidbits of DC history). Anyway, the employees have been great to me and my boyfriend during our search. We are still searching, but I want others to know this is a good place to visit.

2. Solovey, www.solovey.com in VA--they carry antique and antique replicas, nice folks.

3. Tiny Jewel Box, www.tinyjewelbox.com in DC--very high end. I have found them plenty professional, but they haven''t inspired a burning desire to patronize them (not the friendliest of folks). Nevertheless, they have estate and Van Craeynest rings (which I love).

Hope my research helps you a little! Good luck with your search. I think this process has brought my boyfriend and me closer.